[RotaxFlyer]

So...........
You have been pursuing this CDI conversion process for at least 3 years
http://www.dootalk.com/forums/topic/1106497-cdi-plate-for-conversion-of-old-singles/

After all that- your advice to the members at this point is that they buy a mill and rotary table, then proceed to precision mill their stators? (RMstator or Nippon)

How is that any easier / less expensive than the PROVEN ultralight method of repositioning the flywheel that requires nothing more than hand tools that virtually every snowmobile mechanic has at home today?????

You yourself posted that the cost of the Nippon style parts were comparable (if not less expensive) than the RMstator Elan conversion, even at their new lowered price.

Wondering why you have not posted the procedure for this proven method?
I am sure someone with your machining skills can cut a simple key way in a flywheel with a mill. Perhaps you can make a youtube video for us??

Based on view numbers of CDI conversion posts - Seems like a lot of Rotax Doo singles (and maybe twins) could have been converted to CDI by members here over the last three years had this method been revealed in detail.

Maybe not posting the details of this proven conversion process is a marketing strategy? You know, keep people interested while waiting until you make whatever kit you are planning available to the public? Apple does that a lot to raise prices.

If so, do you have a target date when your kit will be available?

Yes, my first Rotax Single I started buying, piece by piece at the time off ebay to collect all the Core Parts, it was a 1981 277 Points engine. I wanted to convert it to CDI, but I eventually, discovered in my research the Case came with (2) different Bolt Patterns, one for Points Stator and one for CDI Stator. The 277 has an Odd Ball Taper for the Flywheel, it's keyed at TDC, whereas the other Old Singles are not. I had trouble finding that 277 Points Flywheel for a long time and had went and bought a newer CDI Crank & Flywheel for it, so I didn't start to pursue the CDI Conversion again till I got my first 335. Since I didn't have a Sled to put the motor in, it wasn't at the Top of the to Do List either.

You don't need a Rotary Table, You can just Drill a Single Hole at the right Degree like they did. My Goal was to make it work for all the Old Singles by using Slots. I recently got a bunch of Old Singles to work with, a 247, 299, and some more 335's, but I have been working on other projects.

Today 3/7/2018 their kit is listed for $199, when I first seen it listed, it was $299. The Nippon CDI Stuff on eBay last time I priced it out was around $140 if you shopped around. So was their web page back then a Type O, or did they lower their Price, I don't know? If your only doing one engine, I would just buy their kit. I now have a 247, a 2nd 277, a 299, and (4) 335's and (1) 340 TNT that I want CDI for.

I did post the basic Info for the Old Way Conversion, I never new what Degree the Flywheel needed Rekeyed at, since I only had the 277 at the time, and I didn't know if all the Singles used the same Degree or not, since I didn't have any of them to even look at for most of the time.

I have No Interest in Making or Selling a Kit. I have given any Info I have found on the subject freely. I can't post CAD Format Files here to my Drill JIG, which is Not Proven yet, or the STL file to have it 3D Printed. Once I have it Proven, anyone who wants it can have it. RMS doesn't really seem to keen on making these to fit all the Singles, maybe they don't have a Rotary Table either.

If, you could convert the Twins Timing to Degrees, and since the Singles Points Coils Pointed to the Right at 45 Degrees and the Twins Points Coils Pointed to the Left at 45 Degrees in the Photo I saw, if the Singles Middle of the Road is 25 Degrees, it would be interesting to see what the Twins work out to. How many different Strokes does those Twins listed have, was any of them listed, Triples?

But Thanks for contributing here towards the subject, your the first in 3 years.

 

[RotaxFlyer]

Speaking of bad/misleading data .....

In October of last year you answered another post by a member concerning the Rmstator Elan conversion.
"It looks like they have lowered their Kit price also, was $299, now $199, which $199 is a very fair price for all New parts. You still need to buy a CDI Coil $43 on eBay."

Seems odd you should have posted that advice.

Just a month earlier you posted the pictures and instructions that clearly showed NO additional coil was needed when using their conversion kit.

It would seem you should go back and correct both those posts, since you now know that false and misleading information was distributed.
I am sure you would not want anybody searching these old posts to make any needless purchases based on your incorrect content.

These are the two posts that should be corrected in reference to the RMSTATOR Elan conversion.

No Need for additional external coil
http://www.dootalk.com/forums/topic/1448834-elan-cdi/

Cannot be used for Twins by substituting a twin coil (377F, 440F, 503F)
http://www.dootalk.com/forums/topic/1106497-cdi-plate-for-conversion-of-old-singles/

Not bad if they were still using the Nippon Style CDI Box I saw the first time. They must have switched units and I missed that in the photos. The Principle is the same, if they sell a Dual Firing CDI/COIL Combo Unit to go with that Horse Shoe Stator, which they don't list one on their website. So to make a kit yourself, the only Option is to use the Nippon CDI Stuff. I went back and made the corrections.

 

[sightation]

Not bad if they were still using the Nippon Style CDI Box I saw the first time. They must have switched units and I missed that in the photos. The Principle is the same, if they sell a Dual Firing CDI/COIL Combo Unit to go with that Horse Shoe Stator, which they don't list one on their website. So to make a kit yourself, the only Option is to use the Nippon CDI Stuff. I went back and made the corrections.

Thanks for making the corrections

 

[sightation]

You don't need a Rotary Table, You can just Drill a Single Hole at the right Degree like they did. My Goal was to make it work for all the Old Singles by using Slots. I recently got a bunch of Old Singles to work with, a 247, 299, and some more 335's, but I have been working on other projects.

Yes they could be drilled single hole but that does not allow for adjustment for electrical tolerance. It is nice that you have access to all the stuff you do.

However I and 98.765% of the snowmobile owners of the world will never own a mill or rotary table.

So I took some time today to make a drill / slot guide to be used with simple hand tools when modifying CDI stators for use on point engine conversions.
Using this guide any stator can be slotted with a simple hand drill. Having a Dremel would simplify it too.

Design Goals
Slot Positions ...Same as Rotax Factory
Slot length.....Same as Rotax Factory
Slot width.......Same as Rotax Factory
Accuracy........Same as Rotax Factory
Tolerance.......Same as Rotax Factory

Results
CAD design time.... ..Zero Hours
Manufacturing Time .....1/4 Hour
Cost ................Zero (point engine being converted supplies raw material)

2D CAD file available .... No

 

[sightation]

Yes, my first Rotax Single I started buying, piece by piece at the time off ebay to collect all the Core Parts, it was a 1981 277 Points engine. I wanted to convert it to CDI, but I eventually, discovered in my research the Case came with (2) different Bolt Patterns, one for Points Stator and one for CDI Stator. The 277 has an Odd Ball Taper for the Flywheel, it's keyed at TDC, whereas the other Old Singles are not.

Of course slotting a CDI stator would be easier than keying a flywheel - if that would actually work.

Here is something to consider before you spend time and energy machining a CDI stator as you have suggested you will do with your Nippondenso unit when you get a rotary table.

When Rotax started using CDI's on the 277, 377, 503 engines they used a two hole stator. That is because all the twin cases of that time used two hole points stators.

Since single points stators used three holes - On the 277 they added one 1 extra mounting hole, making 4 total. The added hole is in the upper left quadrant. The second hole used was one of the original holes. Lower Right quadrant

Below is a picture of a 277 case with the extra hole. Yellow arrows for point stator - Red arrows for CDI

NOW ...........
If you line up those common holes on a point stator and a two hole CDI stator you can see the relation between the ignition coils.

Placing the top hole of the point stator where it would be on a 247 type case (around 12 o'clock high) you can clearly see where the CDI coil would be in relation to the case.
It is nowhere near the top of the arc - Where the RMstator coil is. In fact, the end of the coil is pretty close to the mounting hole so no hole could be drilled.

So the question remains - Where does the Nippondenso coil setup need to be to give proper timing?

Using the one hole mount, universal timing test, still seems a prudent idea before any drilling and milling is done on a CDI stator even if only a $34 aftermarket unit.

Sure wish that someone with I dunno, maybe nine Rotax single engines, would take an hour or so and try it just to see how feasible the stator mod would be vs the proven method.

 

[TheDullCarbide]

I saw a reference to GY6 CDIs. I'm knowledgeable to the DC ones. The timing curve in them would fit these engines perfectly.

 

[RotaxFlyer]

I saw a reference to GY6 CDIs. I'm knowledgeable to the DC ones. The timing curve in them would fit these engines perfectly.

Almost all CDI stuff would work with these Engines, that's not the problem, it's getting it to Work with the Bosch (4) Magnet Points Flywheel. The Cheap GY6 CDI stuff use's an odd Metric Taper on their Flywheel and I believe they use (5) Magnets. Some of these CDI Units use a Seperate Pickup like the Ducati Ignition does, Pickup Magnet on outside of Flywheel that Triggers it. IF, you can Machine the GY6 Flywheel to Work with the Rotax Crank Taper it could Work, but then you have to make an Adapter for the other Rotax parts that attached to the Rotax Flywheel. The Points Flywheels are two Parts, so you might be able to Adapt the GY6 Flywheel by taking off the GY6 HUB and attaching the Rotax Back Plate Hub. I have thought about it, but never bought one of them kits to try it. The Nippon parts all New for a Conversion is not that Expensive, last time I priced them around $140.

IF, you want it Simple, just replace the Top Points Coil with the Yellow CDI Coil about $35, and get the the Nippon CDI Box and Nippon Single Firing Coil and Rekey the Flywheel. The way it was explained to me, is put the Points Flywheel on with NO KEY, where you think it's Close and Spin it over. A Trial & Error process. Nobody, actually knew the Actual Degree to Rekey the Flywheel at. The People selling the Conversion for $$$ years ago, don't give out that info. I never had many of these Old Singles to even look at till just lately, so the process has been slow. I still don't have one of each to compare. Since I want more HP also, I probably won't get a 292 or 318/320.

 

[RotaxFlyer]

Yes they could be drilled single hole but that does not allow for adjustment for electrical tolerance. It is nice that you have access to all the stuff you do.

However I and 98.765% of the snowmobile owners of the world will never own a mill or rotary table.

So I took some time today to make a drill / slot guide to be used with simple hand tools when modifying CDI stators for use on point engine conversions.
Using this guide any stator can be slotted with a simple hand drill. Having a Dremel would simplify it too.

Design Goals
Slot Positions ...Same as Rotax Factory
Slot length.....Same as Rotax Factory
Slot width.......Same as Rotax Factory
Accuracy........Same as Rotax Factory
Tolerance.......Same as Rotax Factory

Results
CAD design time.... ..Zero Hours
Manufacturing Time .....1/4 Hour
Cost ................Zero (point engine being converted supplies raw material)

2D CAD file available .... No

I guess you missed my post, that the 277 is different from all the other Singles, what were trying to figure out! The 277 66mm Points Crank is Keyed at TDC and has a different Taper than the other Old Singles. The 277 Nippon CDI Crank has the same Taper as the 80's 377F, 440F, 503F, and is also Keyed differently than the Points Crank, I believe. I have one somewhere around here in a Box, so I'll try and dig it out after I get back from Branson, leaving Fri for a week. Haven't seen a 292 or 318/320 Points setup yet to confirm if there the same, or any of the Smaller Rotaxs, 148, 163, 185UL, below the 247 to see what they used, but all the other Singles I think, are Keyed the same with the same Taper.

It's Aluminium, you could machine it on a $50 Drill Press. IF, you used that FREE 2D CAD, took :30 Minutes to learn it, and another :20 mins, you could design a Drill JIG similar to my Red one that could be just Bolted/Clamped to the Drill Press Table and probably Machine the Slots. Just Drill Multiple Holes on the Radius Path and then come back and Finish Machine it. Just Turn it by Hand in the 3D Printed Jig or Buy a Cheap Small Rotary Table. Today, you have many different Mini Mills & Lathes that aren't expensive that you could use for other projects also. I want a Larger Rotary Table and they aren't cheap.

 

[RotaxFlyer]

Yes they could be drilled single hole but that does not allow for adjustment for electrical tolerance. It is nice that you have access to all the stuff you do.

However I and 98.765% of the snowmobile owners of the world will never own a mill or rotary table.

So I took some time today to make a drill / slot guide to be used with simple hand tools when modifying CDI stators for use on point engine conversions.
Using this guide any stator can be slotted with a simple hand drill. Having a Dremel would simplify it too.

Design Goals
Slot Positions ...Same as Rotax Factory
Slot length.....Same as Rotax Factory
Slot width.......Same as Rotax Factory
Accuracy........Same as Rotax Factory
Tolerance.......Same as Rotax Factory

Results
CAD design time.... ..Zero Hours
Manufacturing Time .....1/4 Hour
Cost ................Zero (point engine being converted supplies raw material)

2D CAD file available .... No

I guess you got a Hang up about using Free, Simple Software products that can benefit you in many different ways. That 2D CAD program has about a :30 to 1 Hour learning Curve. If you can't see the benefits of Designing a Part or your own Idea you come up with, and then having it 3D Printed cheap(Mine Drill Jig Cost $22), or making it yourself, or just Sending the DXF CAD File to a CNC Shop to have it made. With a Cheap Lathe & Mill you can make about anything you can dream up, if You Apply yourself. Sled Billet Heads($400), Twin Cranks($1600+), Twin Case($2000+), Large 80cc RC Billet Case($650), Brackets, your own Stator Plate Design, etc. Which you have the Option to Sell these Parts for $$$! If you don't make a lot of Money to Feed your Hobbys, get creative. Any of these Cheap Machining Tools can even be upgraded to CNC fairly cheap.

Price out a Piece of Raw 6061 Plate Stock off ebay to make just a 670 Sled Head, $20-$25. Price out a Piece of Raw Steel Big enough to make a Single Crank.

http://cncfusion.com/minimill1.html

 

[sightation]

I guess you missed my post, that the 277 is different from all the other Singles, what were trying to figure out! The 277 66mm Points Crank is Keyed at TDC and has a different Taper than the other Old Singles. The 277 Nippon CDI Crank has the same Taper as the 80's 377F, 440F, 503F, and is also Keyed differently than the Points Crank, I believe. I have one somewhere around here in a Box, so I'll try and dig it out after I get back from Branson, leaving Fri for a week. Haven't seen a 292 or 318/320 Points setup yet to confirm if there the same, or any of the Smaller Rotaxs, 148, 163, 185UL, below the 247 to see what they used, but all the other Singles I think, are Keyed the same with the same Taper.

I guess you missed my point - anybody who wants to do this conversion already has the drill/slot guide in their possession.

It took me less time to create the drill guide than it took you to cut and paste your reply from the internet.

It will work on ANY single or twin. In case you missed the procedure here it is in detail

Take your existing stator
Remove coils, points, condenser
Save the parts in suitable container for later reuse
DONE

Now for all your expertise about 277s there are a few things you still don't know. There is a fact you might want to consider.
The change in the 277 crankshaft taper and Keying was NOT about the CDI.

1st year CDI used point crank. The later crank change was about using the the same flywheel as the 377 CDI motors for manufacturing economy not function.

1980 point crank 420-994-760
1981 point crank 420-994-765
1982 CDI crank 420 -994-765
1983-84 CDI crank 420-995-300

POINT BEING - CDI trigger has NOTHING to do with crankshaft keying.
It has to do the final relation between the flywheel magnets and the coil. That's why no matter what you do with your drill fixture - you will still need to test that relation in real life.

That test can be done TODAY without ever touching a mill or drill. No need to wait until a trip to Grizzly tools to buy a rotary table.

Finally, because it seems no post can be valid without lots of internet cut and paste of tools here's what is required for my method.

 

[sightation]

I guess you got a Hang up about using Free, Simple Software products that can benefit you in many different ways. That 2D CAD program has about a :30 to 1 Hour learning Curve

Not hung up at all with CAD programs. Hung up with the IDEA it is the go to solution for everything.

Kinda like young kids entire life revolving around cell phones. Talking is so old fashioned compared to Texting. Don't know how to read a wristwatch. Can't do math in their heads.

Over the past three years - you have spent a lot of time drawing pictures of what you would do - but not actually doing it. And, even when you spent time and money on a 3D print prototype, you still have no idea if it will actually work.

My method of test and modify per test will work..TODAY. No CAD learning/drawings required

I agree - ======>you can make about anything you can dream up, If You Apply yourself. Sled Billet Heads($400), Twin Cranks($1600+), Twin Case($2000+), Large 80cc RC Billet Case($650), Brackets, your own Stator Plate Design, etc. <======

Heck if you put your mind to it you can make a P-51 Fighter from scratch!!

98.765% of the snowmobilers in the world are not going to make a billet head($400), crankshaft ($1200), RC motor case($650),Twin case($2000), 34mm Carb flange ($45), etc,
In fact, doesn't seem you would either.

In post #21 you said about the RMStator
======>Today 3/7/2018 their kit is listed for $199, when I first seen it listed, it was $299. The Nippon CDI Stuff on eBay last time I priced it out was around $140 if you shopped around. So was their web page back then a Type O, or did they lower their Price, I don't know? If your only doing one engine, I would just buy their kit.<======

Well - I have offered a one off solution that anyone can do without special tools, without computer programs, for less $$ than the kit, and in way less than three years of research (which is not done yet)

Like kids with phones - sometimes it's good think problems through rather than blindly rely on technology.

Cut and paste pictures required for validation - Here are my commonly used design tools
Variations also available locally at Walmart. (Office Supply Dept)

 

[SkiDog74]

^ You are my hero. I wish i could so calmly and eloquently utterly destroy someone like you can. Awesome and Thank you.

 

[TheDullCarbide]

Almost all CDI stuff would work with these Engines, that's not the problem, it's getting it to Work with the Bosch (4) Magnet Points Flywheel. The Cheap GY6 CDI stuff use's an odd Metric Taper on their Flywheel and I believe they use (5) Magnets. Some of these CDI Units use a Seperate Pickup like the Ducati Ignition does, Pickup Magnet on outside of Flywheel that Triggers it. IF, you can Machine the GY6 Flywheel to Work with the Rotax Crank Taper it could Work, but then you have to make an Adapter for the other Rotax parts that attached to the Rotax Flywheel. The Points Flywheels are two Parts, so you might be able to Adapt the GY6 Flywheel by taking off the GY6 HUB and attaching the Rotax Back Plate Hub. I have thought about it, but never bought one of them kits to try it. The Nippon parts all New for a Conversion is not that Expensive, last time I priced them around $140.

IF, you want it Simple, just replace the Top Points Coil with the Yellow CDI Coil about $35, and get the the Nippon CDI Box and Nippon Single Firing Coil and Rekey the Flywheel. The way it was explained to me, is put the Points Flywheel on with NO KEY, where you think it's Close and Spin it over. A Trial & Error process. Nobody, actually knew the Actual Degree to Rekey the Flywheel at. The People selling the Conversion for $$$ years ago, don't give out that info. I never had many of these Old Singles to even look at till just lately, so the process has been slow. I still don't have one of each to compare. Since I want more HP also, I probably won't get a 292 or 318/320.

If you stick with the DC CDIs, all you need is the external trigger coil. You would just need to embed a magnet into the existing Rotax flywheel and put two GY6 trigger coils near it.

The madness underneath the GY6 flywheel is just the magneto and the ignition charging coil. Obviously you wouldn't need the magneto and the ignition charging coil wouldn't be needed with the DC system. The AC gets it's power from that coil whereas the DC runs off the battery and has a boost converter built in to step the 12V to 400V.

If you don't mind the chinese parts on your engine, you should take another look at this system.

 

[sightation]

If you stick with the DC CDIs, all you need is the external trigger coil. You would just need to embed a magnet into the existing Rotax flywheel and put two GY6 trigger coils near it.

The madness underneath the GY6 flywheel is just the magneto and the ignition charging coil. Obviously you wouldn't need the magneto and the ignition charging coil wouldn't be needed with the DC system. The AC gets it's power from that coil whereas the DC runs off the battery and has a boost converter built in to step the 12V to 400V.

If you don't mind the chinese parts on your engine, you should take another look at this system.

Dullcarbide - that is an interesting observation - using the DC powered units

If you kept the Rotax Stator - you could charge the battery when running.

Any idea what the requirement is for the magnet? How far it can be away from the pick-up etc

 

[TheDullCarbide]

Dullcarbide - that is an interesting observation - using the DC powered units

If you kept the Rotax Stator - you could charge the battery when running.

Any idea what the requirement is for the magnet? How far it can be away from the pick-up etc

0.012"-0.032" airgap on the trigger coil. I wouldn't worry too much about the airgap or even the magnet itself because it's a very "loose" system as it is. Hell, I've even triggered my CDI with a AAA battery. They're so cheap that they don't care I guess...

That being said, what is the end goal of switching to these rigged CDI systems? Is it to do away with the points, the flywheel, the timing curve??? If you kept the points, they could trigger the CDI directly. Unhook the ignition coil and condensers, put a small resistor to +, and trigger the CDI from the opening of the points.

What I would worry about is the crosstalk of the magnets in the Bosch flywheel to the trigger coil. The placement of the trigger magnet and coil away from the Bosch magnets would be crucial.

 

[sightation]

0.012"-0.032" airgap on the trigger coil. I wouldn't worry too much about the airgap or even the magnet itself because it's a very "loose" system as it is. Hell, I've even triggered my CDI with a AAA battery. They're so cheap that they don't care I guess...

That being said, what is the end goal of switching to these rigged CDI systems? Is it to do away with the points, the flywheel, the timing curve??? If you kept the points, they could trigger the CDI directly. Unhook the ignition coil and condensers, put a small resistor to +, and trigger the CDI from the opening of the points.

What I would worry about is the crosstalk of the magnets in the Bosch flywheel to the trigger coil. The placement of the trigger magnet and coil away from the Bosch magnets would be crucial.

Good questions

From a racer point of view it would be a better advance curve. The point system goes full advance and never backs off as RPM increases.

From a trail rider point of view, for me its easier starting from stronger spark and overall reliability.

Over the years I talked to a lot of Aftermarket CDI Suppliers about points triggered CDI. Most poo-poo-ed the idea.
MSD used to have a true Point Triggered conversion for Briggs Spec racing carts - but they did away with it,

I would be really interested in a point triggered programmable ignition. Battery is no issue.

When we raced, we used ignition system without coil under flywheel. Re-chargeable Drill battery directly powering points. Full voltage to ignition no matter how fast you were pulling the rope

 

[RotaxFlyer]

I guess you missed my point - anybody who wants to do this conversion already has the drill/slot guide in their possession.

It took me less time to create the drill guide than it took you to cut and paste your reply from the internet.

It will work on ANY single or twin. In case you missed the procedure here it is in detail

Take your existing stator
Remove coils, points, condenser
Save the parts in suitable container for later reuse
DONE

===> Then WHY, haven't YOU and these other SMART PEOPLE here Done it already? I put the INFO out probably 3-4+ years ago when I didn't even have the Parts of Engines to look at, just Photo's, YOU and these other People probably have many old Engines laying around your shop!!! YOU, still haven't PROVEN your THEORY YET. You only have (3) Case Studs to Work with and only need (2) to secure the Plate. Like I said, were talking about a Conversion for the OTHER COMMON SINGLES (247/250, 292, 299/300, 318/320, 335/340) which are DIFFERENT from the very LIMITED BUILT POINTS 277!!! It took me over a year an a half to even find the 277 Points Flywheel to go with my Crank. PROVE YOUR THEORY for US!!!

YES, the MAGNETS on the POINTS FLYWHEEL have to be in the right POSITION to make it FIRE where you WANT. So you do have (2) Options REKEY the FLYWHEEL the PROVEN WAY, or REPOSITION the MAGNETS on the FLYWHEEL, which NO ONE, even YOU, HASN'T DONE it YET. All of you Bright People here haven't Figured it out Yet have You. YOU and THEY have been following this thread for HOW LONG NOW?

Instead of some People COMPLAINING and WHINING about EVERYTHING in these different Threads, Trying to PROVE SOMEONE WRONG, ACTUALLY TRY to CONTRIBUTE SOMETHING POSITIVE HERE in these Threads. Like I said, YOU'RE the FIRST in 3 YEARS to ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTE SOMETHING to this THREAD! <=====

Now for all your expertise about 277s there are a few things you still don't know. There is a fact you might want to consider.
The change in the 277 crankshaft taper and Keying was NOT about the CDI.

1st year CDI used point crank. The later crank change was about using the the same flywheel as the 377 CDI motors for manufacturing economy not function.

1980 point crank 420-994-760
1981 point crank 420-994-765
1982 CDI crank 420 -994-765
1983-84 CDI crank 420-995-300

POINT BEING - CDI trigger has NOTHING to do with crankshaft keying.
It has to do the final relation between the flywheel magnets and the coil. That's why no matter what you do with your drill fixture - you will still need to test that relation in real life.

====> Sightation, First of all I have never claimed to have Expertise in anything, I leave that to you Smart Guys, who think they know everything. This Thread is not about Converting the Limited Built 1980-81 Points 277 to CDI! I told You, and these People, it has to do with the Coils Relation to the Magnets to Fire already. That FLYWHEEL KEY sets the POSITION. So you have (2) Options, REKEY the FLYWHEEL the PROVEN WAY, or MOVE the MAGNETS!!! If YOU think moving the Magnets is easier, then DO IT! The 277 POINTS Flywheel Magnets are in a different relation X Pattern than the other Old Singles in a Cross Pattern. The Flywheel Keys are also different Widths 3mm vs 5mm. <=====

That test can be done TODAY without ever touching a mill or drill. No need to wait until a trip to Grizzly tools to buy a rotary table.

Finally, because it seems no post can be valid without lots of internet cut and paste of tools here's what is required for my method.

====> IF, you wish to try and Jury Rig it Half A$$, then by all means do it. I don't try to do things that way. You have a Precision SLOT on a RADIUS that use's a 4mm Stud with Clearance in the Thousandths of an Inch, and you have (3) Studs which CENTERLINE is very PRECISE that needs that Slot Placed Precisely to be able to turn Freely to make them Timing Adjustments. The Whole Point of making the Slot is to make it Work for All the Common Old Singles. If you wish to use a Hammer, Rock, Screwdriver, Hand Drill, Chisel, File, Paper, Pencil, etc., to accomplish your Task, then by all means, DO IT! That $50 Drill Press and Cheap Rotary Table I showed you could make you $$$ at Home doing these Points to CDI Conversions. I'm Retired with about $7000 a month coming in till I die, with also a very healthy Wife's 401K, $400,000+ to also draw from if needed, so I/We don't need the extra $$$. So with all your Intelligence, put it to work making you $$$. Don't just Talk about it. I Designed my own Home with Paper & Pencil & Built it at Age 25, about 35 years ago. I have done complete Frame Off Restores of many Cars. What have you Designed & Built? Sometimes, you have to Spend $$$ to make even more $$$$$. It's called Investment in your Time & Money. All Tools, Pay for themself real quick, even the Expensive ones. If you want to use Hand Tools to do (1) XYZ Part at so much Time, or use a Power Tool that you can do (5) XYZ Parts in the same Time. So a 1-5 Ratio. So that Free CAD Drawing(Your Time), and that 3D Printed ($22) Drill Jig, means you can Convert more Stator Plates in the same amount of Time. Hopefully, you make it so simple your Kids, or Wife can even Help you do it.

Many of You, who have been into Sleds for a long time, have used, Good Nippon Horse Shoe Stators, CDI Box, and CDI Coils sitting in your Shop/Garage that YOU could have done these (2) MODS a long time ago, 4+ years for sure. So, Why haven't YOU? <====

Just My Opinion!

 

[RotaxFlyer]

If you stick with the DC CDIs, all you need is the external trigger coil. You would just need to embed a magnet into the existing Rotax flywheel and put two GY6 trigger coils near it.

The madness underneath the GY6 flywheel is just the magneto and the ignition charging coil. Obviously you wouldn't need the magneto and the ignition charging coil wouldn't be needed with the DC system. The AC gets it's power from that coil whereas the DC runs off the battery and has a boost converter built in to step the 12V to 400V.

If you don't mind the chinese parts on your engine, you should take another look at this system.

While I have thought about this, I haven't bought the GY6 Parts to try and play around with it yet. But, Yes, your Correct, puting the Magnet on the Outside of the Bosch Flywheel in a Shallow Groove Epoxied is not the Problem. We would just use the Ducati stuff. But you do have to Mount the Trigger/Pickup somehow to the Case. Is there Room for it? The Problem is the Crank Tapers are different, the Size of the Flywheels are different, the Size of the Stator Plates are different and the Number of Magnets used are different.

I'm not an Electrical Engineer. Could you make the GY6 other CDI external parts(CDI Box, Coil) work with the Yellow Nippon CDI Coil or Horse Shoe Stator? You could still Glue the magnet on for the Pickup.

Many Years ago I stumbled on a place that had many different Flywheel Hubs, but I lost the Link and haven't been able to find it again. I would bet the whole GY6 Flywheel would fit inside the Bosch Points Flywheel. Especially if you took out the Magnets. Take the Hub off the GY6 Flywheel and mount it to the Rotax Bosch HUB. Maybe still use the Bosch Magnet Ring Shell, Think of maybe using an Aluminium Spacer Ring between Shell and GY6 Flywheel. People want Lights, and some want Electric Start.

 

[TheDullCarbide]

Many Years ago I stumbled on a place that had many different Flywheel Hubs, but I lost the Link and haven't been able to find it again. I would bet the whole GY6 Flywheel would fit inside the Bosch Points Flywheel. Especially if you took out the Magnets. Take the Hub off the GY6 Flywheel and mount it to the Rotax Bosch HUB. Maybe still use the Bosch Magnet Ring Shell, Think of maybe using an Aluminium Spacer Ring between Shell and GY6 Flywheel. People want Lights, and some want Electric Start.

Now there's an idea! Getting rid of the Bosch magnets could lighten the flywheel.

While I have thought about this, I haven't bought the GY6 Parts to try and play around with it yet. But, Yes, your Correct, puting the Magnet on the Outside of the Bosch Flywheel in a Shallow Groove Epoxied is not the Problem. We would just use the Ducati stuff. But you do have to Mount the Trigger/Pickup somehow to the Case. Is there Room for it? The Problem is the Crank Tapers are different, the Size of the Flywheels are different, the Size of the Stator Plates are different and the Number of Magnets used are different.

I cant say how the trigger coil could fit in all Rotax engines but it has plenty of room in my points 464 using the positions for the CDI trigger coils of later 464s. In my case I could keep my horseshoe and lights no problem. As for going inside the flywheel, I couldn't tell you (yet). I do have a CDI 503 that I haven't touched yet. You know about that one.

Maybe you could put a magnet in the face of the Bosch flywheel and sandwich the trigger coils in the case between the magneto and recoil.

I have no experience with the Nippondenso CDI system (yet). I don't see much of a problem using the GY6 coil and changing the cap.

 

[TheDullCarbide]

Good questions

From a racer point of view it would be a better advance curve. The point system goes full advance and never backs off as RPM increases.

From a trail rider point of view, for me its easier starting from stronger spark and overall reliability.

Over the years I talked to a lot of Aftermarket CDI Suppliers about points triggered CDI. Most poo-poo-ed the idea.
MSD used to have a true Point Triggered conversion for Briggs Spec racing carts - but they did away with it,

I would be really interested in a point triggered programmable ignition. Battery is no issue.

When we raced, we used ignition system without coil under flywheel. Re-chargeable Drill battery directly powering points. Full voltage to ignition no matter how fast you were pulling the rope

More about the timing curve.

Stock GY6 CDIs run about 8 degrees under 500rpm. 500-2500rpm is 14 degrees. 2500-3500rpm steps 14 degrees up to 30 degrees. Most stock CDIs have a rev limiter somewhere between 7500 and 8500rpm. At the rev limiter, the CDI aggressively pulls timing instead of cutting spark. The limiter is smooth and has no bouncing.

There are also a few aftermarket types. Be careful because they are very easy to confuse and the translations from Chinese suck:

1: There are a handful of CDIs that use the stock advance curve yet have no rev limit. These CDIs are black like the stock ones so they're hard to distinguish. These are my favorite, hands down.

2: Most "no rev limit" and "9000rpm rev limit" CDIs also claim to give an extra 4 degrees timing. These suck because you don't get 4 degrees. You get about 1 at best at the sacrifice of the entire advance curve. They run 30-31 degrees straight timing. Usually these come in an orange or red case shaped like stock or a small blue heatsink case.

3: "Adjustable timing" CDIs have a little pot sticking out of the top of the CDI box. They are a stock curve except that the pot controls the rpm that the 14-30 degree transition happens. They do not affect the actual timing, just the rpm of the main advance. They come in a yellow or purple stock case with a pot in the top, near the connectors. They sometimes use a clear potting so you can see the board.

4: The truly programmable ones. I purchased one a year ago but I think I broke it. I haven't been able to contact the seller since because he spilled soda on his laptop...long story. These are pretty cool as you can make your own advance curves with a computer and adjust them on the fly. If you would go with this setup, it wouldn't matter where the magnet was on the flywheel; you can adjust it in the program. This one cost me around $100 shipped and you can get them from China for $20 if you want to ship it. Lookup "motoefi." The site will be in Chinese but Chrome can translate it.

Coils:

Stock coils are black and have a 1000:1 turns ratio.

Aftermarket orange coils have a 1500:1 turns ratio. Some engine manufacturers are now using these instead of the 1000:1 because of the stronger spark.

Aftermarket red coils are 2000:1 and are known to shorten the life of CDI units.

Some aftermarket coils are labeled "high retention." This just means the cap stays on the plug better. They work but they're pointless to us because we'd be switching the cap anyway. These come in all three colors and turns ratios.