If you can go ride a 600 first

 

It all depends on you and how you ride. If all your buddies haul the mail on their 850’s and you can do the same safely, then I’d say stay with the 850. This was basically my experience last year. I have been on 4 strokes since 2010 and last year I switched to an 850 to try. My friends run 850’s and just have always been that step or two faster than me. In the end, I really couldn’t keep up with them and felt it wasn’t worth the juice to squeeze, so I went back to a 4 stroke 900t with 130hp this year and for the 250 or so miles I put on it, I’m content. I have no miles with my friends this year so I can’t compare , but I’d say I’ll still be plenty fine with this size. Nothing wrong with the 600R’s though either as they are much better on gas and oil when driven respectfully.

 

My experience with my 600r was it used almost the exact same amount of fuel as my buddy on an 850. It can get great fuel mileage if ridden in moderation. Ride it like an 850, and it will drink fuel like an 850.
My last three have been 850s, but I’d have no qualms about another 600.
I always liked being on a 600 when the guys on the bigger sleds couldn’t get away from me.

 

If you ride a lot of long straight trails, you prob won’t love it.

If you ride more corner to corner on twisty trails, it will prob be fine.

 

I think you hit on the most important differences between the 850 and 600 class sleds. Throttle control on the 850s in the twisty trails takes more effort, but on long straight runs, do not have to work very hard to maintain faster speeds. The 600s are easier to get into the flow of the tight, twisty trails and can easily keep up with the 850s, but will work harder in the upper speed ranges on long, sustained straight runs. It really comes down to which type of trails you ride most often.

 

I’m always 600, next sled likely 600R. Gives me more reliability solo riding vs 850.

 

I moved from a 600 R to an 850 after many 600 Etec's . I also still have a 600 that the wife rides that I ride on occasion. The 600 R is a hard act to follow for where I ride in Vermont. After 2 seasons on the 850 I really would find going back to a 600 difficult. Took a while to get used to the extra power but it is great. Am I faster on the 850 ? probably not but enjoy the power of the 850 just gotta be careful it's a beast. As far as dependability hard to beat the 600R most 850's seem to be good in that area many reaching 15K + miles but also reports of them going down much sooner... not sure why.

 

I would try one just to try one, it's something different. You won't be disappointed as long you're only expecting 600 performance from it. When the 600R came out some people were saying "it feels like an older 800". Seems most 800 riders would disagree. But for a 600 the performance is impressive and the run quality is perfect. It's lighter than the 850, uses cheaper belts, uses less oil (even if it doesn't use less gas). It's probably less fatiguing.

 

Some good points here. I was an all 600 guy too. I did a post here called "stepping down" worth the read. I stepped up to my first 850 XRS shorty in 21. Had that 2 seasons(4,300 miles) and got a 23 Gade XRS 850 and traded this past Oct(2,500 miles). I had went to back to the 600R XRS short. I prefer the short track. It just handles better. Yes you give up LinQ space but, I would rather have the handling. The 6R doesn't make my hands tingle from vibration. I have more energy at the end of the day with the 6R. Lame railroad grades and big sweeping trails is where the 850 shines. The tight twisties where I ride only a 6R is needed. I am definately faster on a 6R than a 850 in those trails. The 6R is fast to 75-80mph. The 850 is stupid beyond 75mph. 850 gets the smile factor award. I found myself at my riding limits too often on the 850. It sends you into the corners faster. It is harder to muscle through the corners and you better hang the hell on upon exit. Its more work period. Gas and Oil can be argued all day. I am back on my 24 XRS 600R and was able to get 900 miles on it. I did add a clutch kit and now have it dialed in where I have no regrets stepping down from an 850. Something to consider, 850's have flooded the market. They loose their value so fast. Look on FB market place and find a 600R. I'll wait.

 

What clutch kit did you go with, how do you like it?

 

I bought a new to me 2022 600r.. came off a 2007 polaris 600 liberty. This machine has alot more responsiveness than the old polaris.. it might be the engine, maybe the clutching. I'm very content with the power output and I find corner to corner on tight trails it's as quick as I'd want it to be ( although this year trail miles are very limited). When running tight single track bush trails, it's a little to snappy and takes some getting used to.
For me, I'm happy as we don't have alot of big fast trails, but alot of lakes. Yesterday I was out on the lake and hit 130km/h in about 8" of powder, I could cruise comfortably at that time at 110-115km/h.

 

Anyways, what I'm really interested in are your opinions on moving from the 850 to a 600R. Will I be disappointed and missing my 850, or will it be more than enough most of the time except for the long straightaways? Sometimes I feel like the 850 throttle is too sensitive in the twisties and the 600R throttle would be more forgiving. My riding buddies all have 850's and I'm sure I'll catch some crap for getting a 600, lol.

If the move is only for the throttle response, then I think the answer is to address it with clutching which has been well documented on DooTalk thanks to Dynamo^Joe. Considering all you buddies have 850, a move to a 600R should be well thought out. Some owners have reported the 600R to also having a jerky throttle, so it's no guarantee to solve the problem. I think this is what GYPSY400 referred to as "a little to snappy and takes some getting used to."

Setting asides the throttle jerkiness, I think you have a topic with solid responses.

The topic linked below is to reference following 850s with a 600R.

https://www.dootalk.com/threads/blew-up-a-600r.1637748/

 

Last year I picked up a wry low mile (400) gen 4 600r Renegade. My prior sled was a gen4 800 renegade. I regret that choice almost every single ride, since a) Most of my riding is done in the UP trails and b) everyone else in the group has ski-doo 800 or 850 sleds. I can keep up when we ride in lower Michigan, and I keep up in the UP except for the long straights BUT I am flat on the bars much of the time. I burn more gas than my riding partners every stop (no big deal). It can run twisty trails smoother I think, due to the smooth power delivery, but I miss the big hit at 65+. I went with the 600 as I am older and I bought a place in the lower peninsula, thinking I would ride more in the lower where the sled “is enuf”. But, for the same reason that I have not ridden the lower much at all in the last 15 years, I/we go to the UP for the better riding conditions (wider trails, more snow and less traffic).

I am thinking of buying a second sled. It will be an 850 or 858.

 

I always rode 600's, carbed, Sdi, Etecs and 2 600R's, nobody ever left me behind except on a lake. Got my first 850 last season because it was the only way to get a G5. Does it have more power? from 65mph and up yes. Is it a game changer? Not in my opinion. I would definitely not be afraid to go back to a 600R after 2 years on an 850. The comments about the 600R using as much fuel as an 850 when ridden hard are accurate, but if you're not riding W.O.T all the time they are pretty efficient. The other bonus to the 600 is they are much less susceptible to overheating in low snow conditions.

 

I got a 600r last season and have about 1500 flawless miles on it. Love the smoothness and reliability of this motor. That being said if I was buying new I would definitely go 850, can never have enough power. Only reason I didn't go 850 is I just didn't trust buying a used 850, and the market wasn't flooded with them when I bought my 600r like it is now.

 

I went with my first Big Bore sled last year when I spring ordered my 850 Blizzard. I wish I could have got another 600r but I wanted the Gen 5 and the 850 was a mucchh better deal. The power is nice in the powder(akin to getting a boat up on plane) but once we hit the trails I could take it or leave it. My wife still rides a 20' 600r and fuel mileage is very close to the same. The 850 uses more oil and in my opinion you really notice the 11 extra lbs on the front end. If I would have waited the extra year I would have ordered the 600r but my 19' Blizzard was nearing 4000 miles and that's when I like to get rid of them.

 

The only thing that would ever limit which to choose is price or if your riding area is nothing but twisty trails. Always felt like I was killing my 600 keeping up. It's not only top speed. what's overlooked is the torque of the 850 corner to corner.

 

Great feedback both ways. I should add that we ride all over the UP, so a good mixture of twisties and railroad grades.

 

Seeing you ride hard enough for an 850, I think its an easy choice. The 600R would be the easy pick for me, because I won't try to keep up on long straights as I don't feel comfortable sustaining high speeds for more than a few seconds.

Funny story, the fastest I have ever gone was 2up on a friend's 2004 600 SDI. *All speeds are on speedo. I had often ridden that sled which was nearly a guarantee to hit 140 kph (87 mph) in any trail conditions, and the odd time 170 kph (105 mph) in the very best condition. This one time I was 2-up to look for missing parts from my Renegade 1000 SDI when I blew the track at 160 kph (100 mph). The little 600 had pulled me home and we returned for the missing pieces. On our way back home my buddy had it pinned on the rail grade. When he saw 200 kph on the speedo (124 mph) he poked me hard on the left shoulder and yelled through his helmet to look at the speedo which kept increasing. When it reached 205 kph (127 mph) he poked me again and yelled "Are you seeing this??? 205!!!" It was still climbing when he had to slow down for a road crossing. When we reached my home I asked what the deal was for poking me so hard? lol He said no one would have ever believed it had happened, so at least he had a witness. Neither of us had ever seen this speed on a sled and would never again with even our higher powered sleds. It was an anomaly.

When Dynamo^Joe made the gearing calculator available on his web site, I remember checking the possible top speed with stock gearing which 196 kph (121 mph) in full overdrive, so the speedo was obviously reading high which was also well known. However, we still had reached 20% faster (205 / 170) then ever before, and 2-up too boot!

The reason for mentioning this literally unbelievable story, is that the 600 HO was a power house which the 600R was built on its success. The problem is what we are asking of it with a 129" or 137" track with 1.25" lugs and a tall suspension. As I witnessed, it has no issues with 500 lbs of rider weight! I this case what it did was squish the whole suspension for the lowest ride and the lowest track attack angle which is what is needed to compete in top speed runs. The other reason was the worn out track with short lugs from thousands of wear miles. I don't know how tall they were new, but I kept the track for historical purpose and they measure 3/4".

If you can spare one more story which follows the last one. On a local club race day I had borrowed the same 600 SDI. In competing with the 800R PTEKs and E-TECs, I would spin out of the whole, but once I had picked-up enough speed I was actually gaining on all of them. I kept trying to adapt the throttle to better my whole shot which worked, but I was still many many lengths behind before I could gain on them. This was in a field with loose snow, so I got the idea to bring the competition to the long 1/2 mile stretch of the trail that went along this field, and challenge these 800s to a race with a running start. I said give me 30 mph before we pin it, and I guarantee the only thing you will see in my back light! Back then there were no 850s, so it was an easy win.

I considered it cheating because I had a 120 Hp 600 that had the upper hand on the setup which was nothing but a worn out short lug track. With a brand new track, and even if the lugs were shaved to 3/4", there is no way the same sled would of out-pulled 800s. Everyone was thinking engine size while I was thinking the ease to turn the track. This goes on to the infamous Arctic Cat F7 stories with their abnormally narrow tracks, and the incredible tops speeds from the Mach Z 1000 SDI having a 1" track, and so on. I have witnessed a brand new aftermarket track that was so difficult to turn that it needed lubricant for the engine to turn on a stand! lol I know, it is another unbelievable story, but I still saw it with my own eyes. It was a Russian made track that was obviously not right.

The point is, a 600 can be made to ride fast enough to reasonably follow the 800s and even 850s, but not with a long track. If I am not mistaken, the shortest track that is offered in a Ski-Doo is 129" with 1.25" lugs. So if I want to follow 850s, I want to avoid the longer tracks like a Renegade 137" or a Backcountry 146". And with a new track, it takes some riding time before it becomes easier to turn. Hopefully what I wrote corroborates with what you already know from experience.


Gearing Calculator

2004 MXZ 600 SDI

22/43 gearing
8200 rpm
1.95 gear ratio
121" track
3/4" lugs (worn down from new)
2.52 Track Pitch
10 Track Driver Teeth
41.8 Constant
196 kph (121 mph) Maximum speed in full overdrive
500 lbs total rider weight (fully dressed)

 

This years Gerald Dyrdahl memorial race had stock 600s from all 3 manufacturers running over 110 mph in the long straight aways , these 600s are fast if you can get past all the suspension and get them on the ice

 

Get 600 on the rail road grade in the UP in that sugary snow and it doesn’t feel so fast.

 

I have zero complains on my 600r with the KYB clicker shocks. We ride a lot of twisty/tight trails with some long straightaways mixed in. Corner to corner the 600r is quick & smooth. I also believe the 600r is more reliable than the 850's. It's not a big deal if I'm not 1st to the next stop anymore.

 

I often wonder if the 600 really is more reliable overall than the 850. I think it is more reliable than the 800R E-TEC, but I question when compared to the 850 with the added clutch cooling in 2018 which BRP kept improving for 2019 and other Model Years.

If we were to compare them in only one season to eliminate storage issues, and used the best model year for clutch cooling, then assumed fast trail riding in the UP or Northern Quebec, which one would be more likely to reach 10,000 trail miles?

Funny thing, when we compare cars riding on the highway at say 85 mph, we tend to find the smaller engines suffer more than the larger ones. With sleds we are comparing a twin 600 with a twin 850, so for a fair comparison this would be a 1.5L 4cyl with a 2.5L 4cyl.