So, Arctic Cat is in a position where they have to rebound in order to survive.

We all rip on Cat for their previous quality control issues, weird green/purple tendencies (!) and reliability, but let's be honest, if you've been around long enough, you've lusted after one of their sleds or in my case, wondered how the heck you were ever going to beat an F7 in 660ft on your seemingly lazy, heavy slug.

If you were in the driver's seat, what three things would you do to resurge, simplistically?

I'll start:

1. Re-establish a strong relationship with Suzuki or Yamaha for engines.
2. Focus on cost cutting for production, warranty coverage, aggressive financing (i.e. 0%) and having units available on dealer showroom floors. Bring back the Cat's Pride club with regular mailings/somethings to reconnect with their loyal fans.
3. Re-engage in the Crossover/20" market to come up with a real competitor for the Ski-doo Expedition (it sells very well for BRP).

 

3. Re-engage in the Crossover/20" market to come up with a real competitor for the Ski-doo Expedition (it sells very well for BRP).

^ ^ ^ THIS ^ ^ ^

Assuming they don’t want to be bankrupt in only couple years, expanding their line-up to contain something more than two stroke mountain sleds and fast trail sleds is an absolute must.

At least over here, 20” SUV’s with four stroke engines outsell everything else. Heck, they sell more than double compared to all mountain and trail sleds added together…!

For obvious reasons Arctic Cat won’t have a massive R&D budget. But I seriously hope they can develop and produce something for this category. Like a modern version of their Norseman available with the Yamaha triple four stroker, with and without turbo.

Trying to survive building only two stroke mountain sleds and fast trail sleds is in no way going to be sustainable.

 

I imagine they will focus on refining and making the current 858 and 600 more reliable. Building them in-house sure is cheaper. I do agree with seeing if they can get Yamaha's 998 into the Catalyst.
1. 998
2. More things like the new EXT 858
3. Dealer expansion, big time expansion. Had to be their biggest problem.

 

1) Refine the 858 sled into the best N/A sled on the snow.
2) Forced induction for 858 for the mountain and muscle sled segments.
3) The Dirt market is much bigger than the snow market. Develop a great SXS.

Alternatively compete on value instead of shoveling cash into R&D
1) Anchor on the ZR200 to develop new/young riders into Cat
2) Make the 400 much cheaper to compete with the NEO
3) Drop prices significantly on current dirt offerings

 

Alternatively compete on value instead of shoveling cash into R&D
1) Anchor on the ZR200 to develop new/young riders into Cat
2) Make the 400 much cheaper to compete with the NEO

👆👆👆win the mid-size, full size beginner, and kid sled market so those people become loyal Cat buyers. I can't believe the price of the current Cat 400, can't imagine why anyone would pick one over the Neo.

 

Convince Tucker Hibbert to start racing snocross again. He almost couldn't be beat.
Maybe focus on social media more, pay some cool amabassadeurs in the steep and deep dept to get some hype going. You almost only see Doo and Poo there as of now.

 

Tucker is an old man, he's done.

 

While all of those out are gushing for the sale of cat, I feel cats back is against the wall worse now than it ever has been. They are one investor away from another sale, or being done. Investors minds can change like the wind.

So what do to if you are cat... well where do you start.

1. Figure out what is actually performing well, and stick to it. What isn't doing well, quit doing it.
2. sleds are basically what they are. get the 998 into the cataylst, and stick with what you have. there is a 10 year run setup for the sled design.
3. if you aren't going to be the leader in sleds sales, find a way to make your sled exclusive. make something to order. get rid of the base line sleds. they drive down the resale, and create losses on the floor. buyers seemingly are mid to higher end. why make product when you have to heavily discount to move.


on the atv side, fresh slate on the sxs buggy. copy the polaris way of the ranger rzr and general. make it simple. make a design that is aggressive, but can age well to slowly update for the next 10 years. atvs.... who cares.

can't really dictate interest rates or cost of materials. those asking for lower prices better find a new sports. producing less doesn't make the cheaper.

 

I wonder if they will share tech between ARGO and CAT on the dirt side. Are ARGO ATV's quality? Never really see them anywhere.

 

1. Better quality control and have to come down on pricing-which will be difficult

2. Absolutely need to revamp ATV/UTV lineup, that's where the money is.

3. Gotta try and expand dealer network.


All easy to say but gonna be very hard to do

 

Start making only 200cc and 400c for all three sled cie....Becoming the american kymco sort of might be the only way in my opinion...

 

I have to agree on the importance of the dirt market, particularly with the three categories of side x sides. I wouldn't totally ignore the ATV side either, there are still legions of us who prefer the ATV and still haven't taken the side x side plunge. Talking prices, side x side prices are astronomical compared to sleds and ATVs. So that kinda goes against the idea of them getting back underway lowering prices to bring in customers.

Also pertaining to the dirt side, Cat and all of the Japanese brands (which I still have a ton of respect for because they still build phenomenal machines in their own right) are light years behind Can Am and Polaris. I think it's fair to say that among the Japanese brands, Suzuki offers the widest variety of one machine in the King Quad 750. But it pales in comparison to what Polaris and even more so, Can Am offer. Look at how many variations of 1000cc Outlander you can get in terms of purpose and packages. Oh yeah, speaking of 1000cc, none of them are anywhere close to Polaris and Can Am in available HP. It's actually laughable what the Japanese offer for their big displacement offerings compared to the two leaders. ANY of the current manufacturers involved in ATVs and side x sides would have their work cut out just to catch BRP and Poo, let alone compete.

All of that to say that I believe Cat would have an even steeper uphill battle to establish a descent foothold in the dirt market. I think they should focus on the sleds, at least at first. If successful they then can start putting resources into R&D for the dirt side.

Sleds, I've been out of the game for quite awhile until recently and am not well read on the last 10+ years of industry development. But my simple mind says stick to what is most popular, a 600 and 850 class direct injected 2-stroke, and a solid 1000cc + or - 4-stroke, which it sounds like they already had with the Yamaha mill. I like the idea of the mid size class, with maybe a 400cc direct injection 2-stroke??

 

Well one thing that people really can't see, feel or are aware of short of working around Cat is the fact over 10 years they have lost their connection to a lot of the people that really made Cat and their products. Many people left for better pay and benefits. And I dont mean production - the product managers, engineers, R&D people etc.... the people who bled green. But on the flip side, this move actually put them back in touch with many of them.

There were quite a few people who went to Argo - on both the Argo side of the company and the Sherp stuff (Argo is the north american importer for the big giant Russian made side by side / ATV things) and were the REAL reason someone bought them out. This move was in the making since before the pandemic, just the pandemic and the economic slip the last two years really held it up.

Honestly - it is in better hands now than it was 10 years ago.

Asked in my company (who is based in PA) about the power sports business here - I was asked to explain the difference between Cat, Polaris and BRP. When the sun went down - I couldn't really tell anyone why someone would buy a Cat. So after thinking about it for a minute, I told them "well - if you look at a Cat snowmobile, the stickers might not be perfectly strait, the paint on the tunnel might not be painted real evenly, the handlebars will be sloppy and the dash looks like a pontoon boat from the 90s - but it WILL be the fastest thing there".

 

Well one thing that people really can't see, feel or are aware of short of working around Cat is the fact over 10 years they have lost their connection to a lot of the people that really made Cat and their products. Many people left for better pay and benefits. And I dont mean production - the product managers, engineers, R&D people etc.... the people who bled green. But on the flip side, this move actually put them back in touch with many of them.

There were quite a few people who went to Argo - on both the Argo side of the company and the Sherp stuff (Argo is the north american importer for the big giant Russian made side by side / ATV things) and were the REAL reason someone bought them out. This move was in the making since before the pandemic, just the pandemic and the economic slip the last two years really held it up.

Honestly - it is in better hands now than it was 10 years ago.

Asked in my company (who is based in PA) about the power sports business here - I was asked to explain the difference between Cat, Polaris and BRP. When the sun went down - I couldn't really tell anyone why someone would buy a Cat. So after thinking about it for a minute, I told them "well - if you look at a Cat snowmobile, the stickers might not be perfectly strait, the paint on the tunnel might not be painted real evenly, the handlebars will be sloppy and the dash looks like a pontoon boat from the 90s - but it WILL be the fastest thing there".

On the bold - they even lost that title in the 2 stroke market. And unless they can figure out how to keep the Yammi engine and get it into a new chassis they won't have that either.

Cat has a good front end - unfortunately that's about where it ends today.

On the dirt side even CF Moto has passed them, actually blew past them like they weren't even there.

Cat needs basically a complete rebuild from the ground up, in all categories. The Catalyst is a good start but even there, for an "all new" chassis it still sports the #3 rear suspension and the #2 or #3 engine in their class.

 

I think restoring Faith that they're going to be around to the people that will purchase the product would be job one.
id love to see what percent of previous employees are returning to the company that where laid off

atv/utv line up help as mentioned above.

 

^ ^ ^ THIS ^ ^ ^

Assuming they don’t want to be bankrupt in only couple years, expanding their line-up to contain something more than two stroke mountain sleds and fast trail sleds is an absolute must.

At least over here, 20” SUV’s with four stroke engines outsell everything else. Heck, they sell more than double compared to all mountain and trail sleds added together…!

For obvious reasons Arctic Cat won’t have a massive R&D budget. But I seriously hope they can develop and produce something for this category. Like a modern version of their Norseman available with the Yamaha triple four stroker, with and without turbo.

Trying to survive building only two stroke mountain sleds and fast trail sleds is in no way going to be sustainable.

Well one thing that people really can't see, feel or are aware of short of working around Cat is the fact over 10 years they have lost their connection to a lot of the people that really made Cat and their products. Many people left for better pay and benefits. And I dont mean production - the product managers, engineers, R&D people etc.... the people who bled green. But on the flip side, this move actually put them back in touch with many of them.

There were quite a few people who went to Argo - on both the Argo side of the company and the Sherp stuff (Argo is the north american importer for the big giant Russian made side by side / ATV things) and were the REAL reason someone bought them out. This move was in the making since before the pandemic, just the pandemic and the economic slip the last two years really held it up.

Honestly - it is in better hands now than it was 10 years ago.

Asked in my company (who is based in PA) about the power sports business here - I was asked to explain the difference between Cat, Polaris and BRP. When the sun went down - I couldn't really tell anyone why someone would buy a Cat. So after thinking about it for a minute, I told them "well - if you look at a Cat snowmobile, the stickers might not be perfectly strait, the paint on the tunnel might not be painted real evenly, the handlebars will be sloppy and the dash looks like a pontoon boat from the 90s - but it WILL be the fastest thing there".

I heard all about these cats employees. We never hear anything about a doo or poo engineer. They are doing fine with no name people. Textron wasn't taking a hit in 20 to sell to Argo.

The question I ask is what changed since cat was bought in 17 and now in 25. Not much. So if you are going to rewrap the same product and hope for better results, well I do wish you luck

 

The question I ask is what changed since cat was bought in 17 and now in 25. Not much. So if you are going to rewrap the same product and hope for better results, well I do wish you luck

Textron bought Cat with no want to be in the powersports business - there was a big contract from the government to take bids for the Humvee replacement, which is going to be two levels of vehicles. Something bigger than the H1 (which Oshkosh Truck got - the JLTV), and the SIV which got awarded to GM. Textron was in the running for these programs, but got called to the carpet for not having a facility to build such stuff. They needed something in the US, pretty much ready to go. So they bought Cat to show the government they did not have a leg down in those regards. From that moment forward - the future of Cat would be either one that ended if they got the contract, or the path it has been on - a parent company who hates the red headed step child adopted kid.

 

1. Address the geographic voids that have no dealers
2. Offer track choices on pre-ordered trail sleds
3. Bring out a new rear skid on trail sleds that completes with Pro-CC and R-Motion

 

(1) Produce a sled on-par HP-wise with skidoo’s sport line, and match price to lower barriers to Arctic cat ecosystem entry. Meaning, match ~$10k 600cc price point for a sled that can keep up with any group, as the Doo sports can. The current strategy to charge $10k for a 400cc blast isn’t remotely acceptable

(2) This one’s also about cost. Study skidoo Adrenaline and blizzard lines, reconsider the ~$3k premium required to choose AC over skidoo

(3) double down on serviceability. The catalyst is much easier to work on than a skidoo. Hood comes right off without a bunch of easily lost hex screws. Double down on this across sled lineup

(4) as others said, partner with Yamaha/Suzuki

(5) repair dealer network

 

Well one thing that people really can't see, feel or are aware of short of working around Cat is the fact over 10 years they have lost their connection to a lot of the people that really made Cat and their products.

The question I ask is what changed since cat was bought in 17 and now in 25. Not much. So if you are going to rewrap the same product and hope for better results, well I do wish you luck

Did somebody consider that losing ”the people that really made Cat” might actually not be a bad thing…?

Cat certainly did not do well under Textron. But in all honesty, they also did not do well since 2011’ish until Textron acquired them. Or more like 2007-2008 and forward, indicating they have not really had anybody that understood what they or the market needed during the last 20 years…

Again, a number of different trail sleds with all kind of two stroke engines and loads of detailed equipment levels is not what they need. They need something that sells, right here and right now.

 

Did somebody consider that losing ”the people that really made Cat” might actually not be a bad thing…?

Cat certainly did not do well under Textron. But in all honesty, they also did not do well since 2011’ish until Textron acquired them.

Well the loss in people was a long, slow bleed. Some to retirement, some over money, and to be honest working for Textron was toxic. I call on Cat for work, and have for nearly 15 years, along with many of their vendors (Team Industries, BTD, CMP, Cass Screw, etc......) and the smell was foul for many of the companies even doing business with Cat/Textron.

I will tell a story - in 2018- & 2019 we were working on several machining projects with Cat, knew many of their manufacturing engineers. However Cat was always structured differently than any other place I have been. Everything engineering is all in one level in one giant room that sits directly over their plant floor. Everyone involved with the product is merely feet away from where stuff is being made. The product design people, the product managers, their plant VP people, down to the kids designing the stickers all are in one room. When going there 10+ years ago - these people were glad to do what they were doing, were proud of what they made. Guys like Roger Skyme, the Karpiks, and the Hateens all would be there on a regular basis when new things are on the drawing board.

Yea, not everything was a home run - BUT even into the early 2010s they were doing stuff to push the envelope, the F7 / Crossfire sleds were beasts. The 800 and 800HO engines - IMO, were the strongest offerings AND the most reliable in the business at a time were the series 3 engines were known to live 2000 miles. They were the first with turbo 4 strokes (not just the 660T but the Z1 Turbo. And if you haven't ridden a Z1, there were ugly and heavy, but were much more powerful than anything else at the time).

Back to the story - prior to the pandemic I would be there once every month. Usual rounds - talk to the product managers (ATV & Snow) because even though they weren't in charge of making stuff, they were the ones most plugged into what was needed from the floor. They would steer me to what end of the plant needed help with their machining / manufacturing needs. If they had a problem, they jumped on it with both feet. And do go cheap, get the best solution. There was about 18 moths where nobody was allowed in the door, and upon our return - out of the 18 contacts I had called on for over a decade, one was left - and he oversaw a small sell that did light aluminum machining & welding (heat exchangers, some brackets, etc.....).

Over the next year - i would go, nothing really to ever work on as they were in a holding pattern as internally, they all knew the future of the company was vague and that they were "for sale". The first project they needed help on came to me from a new young Mfg Engineer who asked me to come. I go to Thief, meet the young guy and it was something simple (how to put a hole in a coolant bottle and not leave a burr) but the kid - 23yrs old, from Louisiana, just moved to literally the coldest / most desolate parts of the lower 48 to live (I felt bad for him), is the kind of person who would rather be playing XBox than riding, wrenching on or designing snowmobile parts. This is the kind of people they have now.

The people they are getting connected with are going to help and it will help quickly. The only reason Textron bought Cat is so they could position themselves on some government contract business for the military (which required US manufacturing - the Cat plant would be perfect for it). Textron had ZERO interest in powersports.

There is stuff in the pipe product wise that will impress everyone. The news about Argo is now official, but there has been long talks about what was going to happen once the transition happened, so they know where they are going. Textron just was not going to put a penny into them

 

Background - Purchasing utility based sleds for long travel while hauling.

Reliability and ease of working on it yourself is all I care about these days. Skidoo stopped shipping parts via their own website to Canada's territories, we have no dealers near most of our communities which are fly-in only and if you ever have any issues, they say sorry cant help you have to go to an authorized dealer.

A reliable long lasting product and a company that cares about its customers over its stock price will get my attention.

 

So based on all the responses they are kinda dead in the water as most of these things can’t happen.

can’t really reduce prices as they only sell a couple thousand units

can’t get more quality because that cost money, quality is not free

can’t create lesser sled, while peeps seem to want lesser sleds it’s not really viable for a company with such a small audience, if they can’t sell trail or mountain they ain’t selling kid sleds

so unless they come out with some new killer IP (like the rev circa early 2000) not gonna happen

not Debbie downer either mostly realistic take

 

i agree with you, however we are asking a cat question on a skidoo forum. there are many here responding that we know would rather have their nuts clipped than ride anything but a doo.

i mean last year we had a cat (procross), doo and polaris. The only thing anyone really said about the doo was good rear skid, and kinda lame everywhere else. so all depends who you ask the questions to.

 

Lots of really great conversation here. Thank you everyone. I hope the incoming gang at Cat sees it... you'd be surprised how far these threads go sometimes.

 

1) Do better then Doo and Poo on price. You can’t expect to sell your na offering at the same price as the other manufacturer’s turbo offerings.
2) Fix quality control. I know 4 who bough M 858s. 3 of them spent more time in the shop than on the mountains this past season.
3) Offer a bigger warranty than the other manufacturers, backed by an outside firm to raise consumer confidence.

 

More demo rides. If the sleds are so great let them sell themselves.

 

Great answer!

And let them be real demo rides, not some canned 25 mph tour.

I think it was the last year before Textron bought them, maybe early in the Textron years, Cat was advertising "Come ride with Cat" or something like that.

The fine print was you had to bring your own sled and literally ride with the Cat guys - on your sled. It wasn't a demo ride, it was supposed to be a privilege to ride with the factory reps.

Just a stupid idea. The second part was when they scheduled it, middle Spring. Snow was long gone and warmer weather was here by the time it was supposed to happen.

Needless to say it was cancelled but just another example of just how far out of touch Cat was.

 

Cat always had my interest because they did build some interesting models.

Always wanted a 9000 series something with the NA 4-stroke Yammy engine, but for me there was always just a little reason not to doo it.

Maybe it was that bad taste I had from my local dealers service department, that worked on the one Cat that I did own since new.

I hope that they can make it, thinking they need to concentrate on a narrow product line at first and offer something that no one else does.

Like power steering.

 

They need to address the serious quality issues being lower driveshaft bearing loose fits,chain case,and suspension updates.The one vendor who has addressed all the quality escapes with the drive train ,has been Barn of parts.It kept my 2018 XF9000 on the trail

 

Another issue with Cat is their awful dirt side products. You don’t see them on the trails and without that side of the equation it will be very tough. But Argo does have their own dirt products so perhaps that balances it out for them.

 

You're right, dirt side products are a big part of a successful recreational product manufacturer. Because of the huge "active season" for them, they sell very well and will easily outsell their snow sales. I remember when Cat first entered the ATV market, within two years they were "an ATV manufacturer that also builds snowmobiles". That has always stuck with me to remember just how important these sales are, and the crossover potential between ATV's and snowmobiles (remember the V800 engine that Ski-doo used with success in Utility sleds, it originated as an ATV engine).

 

Imho they don’t need to concentrate very hard on the muscle/hyper sleds, build the tcat but entry level to 600 stuff is where the future will be

 

I think that ship has sailed.

The 858 is their future in the snowmobile world.

 

We’ll see