Ski-Doo Snowmobiles Forum banner
1 - 20 of 80 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
215 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Now for anyone interested on the truth about what really happened with the 06 mapping in your 05.
I was at my dealer and read this for myself off bossweb site,what really happened to our sleds when they were remaped to the 06 mapping.
To start the 05 ecu program and the 06 ecu program have the same fuel mapping and the exact same timing curve.Nothing was changed from the 05 to the 06 program!!
The remapping was done to address the plug fouling issue everyone was experiancing,so they leaned out the start program,which was too lean,so there is another update to correct that start problem.
The other issue that had to be covered was the knock sensor,All the 05s,the ecu didnot reconize the knock sensor.In other words blowing up last year was not a problem because are ECU did not reconize that we had knock sensors.
So in the 06 program,the ECU is way to sensitive in reconizing the knock sensor,so what happens is slightest vibrations or bad fuel or long pulls it would miss interpit any kind of knock as a problem and start adding fuel and retarding timing to correct the knocking problem and at the sametime the pipe is loading up on fuel burning it in the pipe which inturn sets off the probe in the pipe,and the probe is telling the ECU that the engine is running to hot so it all so adds more fuel and less timing to try to fix the hot pipe program!!
When all that is really wrong is the sensitivity of the ECU program for the knock sensor is to sensitive.Hope this makes some sense,but again the fuel mapping and the timing curve from 05 and the 06 program are identical,unchanged the same. All the sleds that are dropping off in topend is caused from a knock senser that this year is being reconized by the ECU,and faultly picking up the wrong signals and pouring fuel and retarding timing to our sleds (05s).Than the egt probe picks up the hot temperqatures of the unburned fuels being burned in the pipe and that sets off another fault and more fuel and timingretarded.Sleds dropping rpms in the topend after long pulls or sometimes just short pulls.
I read this my self so I know it is to be true,Know what are they doing about this issue?? I dont know as of yet but all the guys that had their 05 program reinstalled in their sleds dont have a working knock sensor!!Your ECU dosnt have a program in it to reconize the knock sensor!!
So I am going to wait before having the 05 program put back in to see if they come up with a fix for this sensitive knock program.They came up with a fix for the stalling after starting,,so who knows.
But BRP is listining to all,this letter came out because of all the buzz out there on the internet as they put it,And they swear to this statment about the two ECU programs are identical other than the start up(for plug fouling) and the Nonfunctional 05 knock sensor!
I have seen the light!! Makes sense,Y/N?
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,695 Posts
joewin said:
Now for anyone interested on the truth about what really happened with the 06 mapping in your 05.
I was at my dealer and read this for myself off bossweb site,what really happened to our sleds when they were remaped to the 06 mapping.
To start the 05 ecu program and the 06 ecu program have the same fuel mapping and the exact same timing curve.Nothing was changed from the 05 to the 06 program!!
The remapping was done to address the plug fouling issue everyone was experiancing,so they leaned out the start program,which was too lean,so there is another update to correct that start problem.
The other issue that had to be covered was the knock sensor,All the 05s,the ecu didnot reconize the knock sensor.In other words blowing up last year was not a problem because are ECU did not reconize that we had knock sensors.
So in the 06 program,the ECU is way to sensitive in reconizing the knock sensor,so what happens is slightest vibrations or bad fuel or long pulls it would miss interpit any kind of knock as a problem and start adding fuel and retarding timing to correct the knocking problem and at the sametime the pipe is loading up on fuel burning it in the pipe which inturn sets off the probe in the pipe,and the probe is telling the ECU that the engine is running to hot so it all so adds more fuel and less timing to try to fix the hot pipe program!!
When all that is really wrong is the sensitivity of the ECU program for the knock sensor is to sensitive.Hope this makes some sense,but again the fuel mapping and the timing curve from 05 and the 06 program are identical,unchanged the same. All the sleds that are dropping off in topend is caused from a knock senser that this year is being reconized by the ECU,and faultly picking up the wrong signals and pouring fuel and retarding timing to our sleds (05s).Than the egt probe picks up the hot temperqatures of the unburned fuels being burned in the pipe and that sets off another fault and more fuel and timingretarded.Sleds dropping rpms in the topend after long pulls or sometimes just short pulls.
I read this my self so I know it is to be true,Know what are they doing about this issue?? I dont know as of yet but all the guys that had their 05 program reinstalled in their sleds dont have a working knock sensor!!Your ECU dosnt have a program in it to reconize the knock sensor!!
So I am going to wait before having the 05 program put back in to see if they come up with a fix for this sensitive knock program.They came up with a fix for the stalling after starting,,so who knows.
But BRP is listining to all,this letter came out because of all the buzz out there on the internet as they put it,And they swear to this statment about the two ECU programs are identical other than the start up(for plug fouling) and the Nonfunctional 05 knock sensor!
I have seen the light!! Makes sense,Y/N?
[snapback]691453[/snapback]​
"Gut instinct" --my gut tells me that after reading this thread it sure makes sense to me!
and if in fact that's the case i "hope very strongly" that they BRP is working on a remedy
that would make for alot of happy campers don't ya think?--hopefully soon!
 

·
doofinatic
Joined
·
1,844 Posts
Thanks JOewin for the post. It is actually what I was looking for & makes perfect sense considering the other posts on this site. I would like to think that BRP would have realized that in the summer of 05' during some R&D & not the second after the z's release!!! I think I am going to side with you on this one & hold on the re-install of the 05' mapping.
any ideas initially to stop the issues w/ the knock sensor?
Dan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
215 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
freemachz said:
Thanks JOewin for the post. It is actually what I was looking for & makes perfect sense considering the other posts on this site. I would like to think that BRP would have realized that in the summer of 05' during some R&D & not the second after the z's release!!! I think I am going to side with you on this one & hold on the re-install of the 05' mapping.
any ideas initially to stop the issues w/ the knock sensor?
Dan
[snapback]691601[/snapback]​
There have been many posts that I read that say that after they had the 06 installed they left the same clutching in and it works get.I for one left mine alone and other than the rpm drop off in the to end at WOT due to the knock sensor loading the engine up on fuel it worked great.I went and installed a set of 410 ramps with the all ready in 2mm over rollers and the 250/380 spring and lots of weight on clicker 3,Man this this a rocket.It actually gave me a scare,the other side of the river came up so fast i didnt think I was gonna stop in time.And with my suspension modifictions this sled rides like a dream over last years set up!
So I too will hold on to the installed 06 with the start up update that came out that fixes the stalling program and waitSomething will be done,because what I read on my dealers computerBRP is listining to everything out there on the net.....JOE
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
50 Posts
freemachz said:
Thanks JOewin for the post. It is actually what I was looking for & makes perfect sense considering the other posts on this site. I would like to think that BRP would have realized that in the summer of 05' during some R&D & not the second after the z's release!!! I think I am going to side with you on this one & hold on the re-install of the 05' mapping.
any ideas initially to stop the issues w/ the knock sensor?
Dan
[snapback]691601[/snapback]​
THIS IS A NO BRAINER TO ME....INSTALL THE 05 MAPPING AS IT DOES NOT RECONISE THE EGT OR KNOCK SENSOR, AND RUN GOOD FUEL.
WE WILL HAVE OUR TOPEND BACK
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
215 Posts
BlueMax said:
I guess you guys didn't believe this post. BRP has known about this issue for some time.

http://www.dootalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=82933&st=0
[snapback]691711[/snapback]​
What do you mean!! You think that I am telling everyone BULLsh&%!! I read it myself as to be true!!
I was just clearing up some issues about timing curves and fuel mapping,I myself was interested in if the mapping of fuel or the timing was change.And it wasnt,so this artical I think should clear up the issue of which program was better or faster.
I think if they came out with a knock sensor fix this 06 program would be OKAY,Atleast this year the knock sensor is working expesially now that Alot of are 05s warrentys are up!!Knock sensor just alitte bit to sensitive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,672 Posts
joewin, relax..............LOL BlueMax I think was saying this has been covered before. Not taking anything away from you because if you saw it, you saw it. I doo think it makes sence, but the big ? is are they going to doo anything about.
I know I can go back to my old mapping, but the '06 guys are kind of stuck..............serves ya right for waiting a year to buy
j/k
We'll have to see how committed BRP is to these '06 customers, at least they are researching it, maybe this internet chatter is helping after all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
233 Posts
This is why we need to have access to scan tools. We need to monitor the ECU functions out in the field instead of just inside the dealers shop. The car/truck guys have had this ability for many years, the EPA might have to step in and force BRP to allow scan tool builders access to their ECU data so independent sled shops can work on the F/I sleds. Just fuel for thought.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
522 Posts
Calm down Joewin Bluemax was not calling you a liar, as 1Badho said he was referring to a previous post. I can believe that the 06 and 05 mapping are the same and the over sensitive knock sensor but the 06 mapping does not work as good as the 05 mapping in an 05 machine......... is this because the 05 program simply disables the knock sensor or is it because the 05 and 06 motors are not identical..... I seem to remember somebody saying the porting was different
 
G

·
joewin said:
Now for anyone interested on the truth about what really happened with the 06 mapping in your 05.
I was at my dealer and read this for myself off bossweb site,what really happened to our sleds when they were remaped to the 06 mapping.
To start the 05 ecu program and the 06 ecu program have the same fuel mapping and the exact same timing curve.Nothing was changed from the 05 to the 06 program!!
The remapping was done to address the plug fouling issue everyone was experiancing,so they leaned out the start program,which was too lean,so there is another update to correct that start problem.
The other issue that had to be covered was the knock sensor,All the 05s,the ecu didnot reconize the knock sensor.In other words blowing up last year was not a problem because are ECU did not reconize that we had knock sensors.
So in the 06 program,the ECU is way to sensitive in reconizing the knock sensor,so what happens is slightest vibrations or bad fuel or long pulls it would miss interpit any kind of knock as a problem and start adding fuel and retarding timing to correct the knocking problem and at the sametime the pipe is loading up on fuel burning it in the pipe which inturn sets off the probe in the pipe,and the probe is telling the ECU that the engine is running to hot so it all so adds more fuel and less timing to try to fix the hot pipe program!!
When all that is really wrong is the sensitivity of the ECU program for the knock sensor is to sensitive.Hope this makes some sense,but again the fuel mapping and the timing curve from 05 and the 06 program are identical,unchanged the same. All the sleds that are dropping off in topend is caused from a knock senser that this year is being reconized by the ECU,and faultly picking up the wrong signals and pouring fuel and retarding timing to our sleds (05s).Than the egt probe picks up the hot temperqatures of the unburned fuels being burned in the pipe and that sets off another fault and more fuel and timingretarded.Sleds dropping rpms in the topend after long pulls or sometimes just short pulls.
I read this my self so I know it is to be true,Know what are they doing about this issue?? I dont know as of yet but all the guys that had their 05 program reinstalled in their sleds dont have a working knock sensor!!Your ECU dosnt have a program in it to reconize the knock sensor!!
So I am going to wait before having the 05 program put back in to see if they come up with a fix for this sensitive knock program.They came up with a fix for the stalling after starting,,so who knows.
But BRP is listining to all,this letter came out because of all the buzz out there on the internet as they put it,And they swear to this statment about the two ECU programs are identical other than the start up(for plug fouling) and the Nonfunctional 05 knock sensor!
I have seen the light!! Makes sense,Y/N?
[snapback]691453[/snapback]​
Great post and thanks for the info!


Okay, now what doo we doo?

Might be a dumb question - but is there a way to disable the knock sensor?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,909 Posts
mrdoo-ski said:
joewin said:
Now for anyone interested on the truth about what really happened with the 06 mapping in your 05.
I was at my dealer and read this for myself off bossweb site,what really happened to our sleds when they were remaped to the 06 mapping.
To start the 05 ecu program and the 06 ecu program have the same fuel mapping and the exact same timing curve.Nothing was changed from the 05 to the 06 program!!
The remapping was done to address the plug fouling issue everyone was experiancing,so they leaned out the start program,which was too lean,so there is another update to correct that start problem.
The other issue that had to be covered was the knock sensor,All the 05s,the ecu didnot reconize the knock sensor.In other words blowing up last year was not a problem because are ECU did not reconize that we had knock sensors.
So in the 06 program,the ECU is way to sensitive in reconizing the knock sensor,so what happens is slightest vibrations or bad fuel or long pulls it would miss interpit any kind of knock as a problem and start adding fuel and retarding timing to correct the knocking problem and at the sametime the pipe is loading up on fuel burning it in the pipe which inturn sets off the probe in the pipe,and the probe is telling the ECU that the engine is running to hot so it all so adds more fuel and less timing to try to fix the hot pipe program!!
When all that is really wrong is the sensitivity of the ECU program for the knock sensor is to sensitive.Hope this makes some sense,but again the fuel mapping and the timing curve from 05 and the 06 program are identical,unchanged the same. All the sleds that are dropping off in topend is caused from a knock senser that this year is being reconized by the ECU,and faultly picking up the wrong signals and pouring fuel and retarding timing to our sleds (05s).Than the egt probe picks up the hot temperqatures of the unburned fuels being burned in the pipe and that sets off another fault and more fuel and timingretarded.Sleds dropping rpms in the topend after long pulls or sometimes just short pulls.
I read this my self so I know it is to be true,Know what are they doing about this issue?? I dont know as of yet but all the guys that had their 05 program reinstalled in their sleds dont have a working knock sensor!!Your ECU dosnt have a program in it to reconize the knock sensor!!
So I am going to wait before having the 05 program put back in to see if they come up with a fix for this sensitive knock program.They came up with a fix for the stalling after starting,,so who knows.
But BRP is listining to all,this letter came out because of all the buzz out there on the internet as they put it,And they swear to this statment about the two ECU programs are identical other than the start up(for plug fouling) and the Nonfunctional 05 knock sensor!
I have seen the light!! Makes sense,Y/N?
[snapback]691453[/snapback]​
Great post and thanks for the info!


Okay, now what doo we doo?

Might be a dumb question - but is there a way to disable the knock sensor?
[snapback]692072[/snapback]​
yeah you can disable it , just pull the wires on it
and plug a external one in
Just make sure you run good fuel cause its not gonna protect itself,

This is the same exact thing the Grand Nationals and Turbo trans am's had
I worked on a few cars that had "UPDATED" billet timing chains put in, the stock ones had nylon gears, aftermarket ones were steel,,,, GUESS WHAT had a few customers that were complaining about slow ET's at the track and ALOT OF KNOCK on the SCANTOOL. After seeing a pattern, the timing set was yanked off and a STOCK NYLON one put back on.. PRESTO >> NO MORE KNOCK and ET's came back.

You can unplug the knock sensor and put in a dummy one, BUT let me caution you... BETTER make 100 % sure you GET GOOD FUEL,

Its really easy to test the above run a 93/100 mix of gas, unplug the knock add a dummy, insolate it from vibration and go and run the sled.

Now im not a betting man, but my bet ...... SKIDOO KNOWS ALOT MORE than there letting out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
332 Posts
I know this is comparing apples to oranges but I had a 2.4L Merc outboard that had a bad knock sensor. After I finally tracked down the problem and bypassed the knock sensor I went from 77 mph to 89 mph at almost the same RPM on the tach. This sounds like the smoking gun to me.

I do remember being warned not to install the knock sensor with any kind of thread sealer, etc... Why don't one of you guys try pulling the sensor out and replacing it with some teflon tape on it. This will insulate the knock sensor and make it less sensitive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
522 Posts
squish band said:
That probably exsplains why I herd if you unplug the eghaust senser to show a fault on the ecu that the 06 will be faster.That's probably why Early Rider burned down to.So all last year my 05 ran fine with no knock senser,I'm still going back to 05 map till the 06's get fixed.

[snapback]692232[/snapback]​
You have not put the 05 mapping back in yet Squish?......just wondering if you noticed any improvement...... let us know when you doo
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
904 Posts
turbo89 said:
mrdoo-ski said:
joewin said:
Now for anyone interested on the truth about what really happened with the 06 mapping in your 05.
I was at my dealer and read this for myself off bossweb site,what really happened to our sleds when they were remaped to the 06 mapping.
To start the 05 ecu program and the 06 ecu program have the same fuel mapping and the exact same timing curve.Nothing was changed from the 05 to the 06 program!!
The remapping was done to address the plug fouling issue everyone was experiancing,so they leaned out the start program,which was too lean,so there is another update to correct that start problem.
The other issue that had to be covered was the knock sensor,All the 05s,the ecu didnot reconize the knock sensor.In other words blowing up last year was not a problem because are ECU did not reconize that we had knock sensors.
So in the 06 program,the ECU is way to sensitive in reconizing the knock sensor,so what happens is slightest vibrations or bad fuel or long pulls it would miss interpit any kind of knock as a problem and start adding fuel and retarding timing to correct the knocking problem and at the sametime the pipe is loading up on fuel burning it in the pipe which inturn sets off the probe in the pipe,and the probe is telling the ECU that the engine is running to hot so it all so adds more fuel and less timing to try to fix the hot pipe program!!
When all that is really wrong is the sensitivity of the ECU program for the knock sensor is to sensitive.Hope this makes some sense,but again the fuel mapping and the timing curve from 05 and the 06 program are identical,unchanged the same. All the sleds that are dropping off in topend is caused from a knock senser that this year is being reconized by the ECU,and faultly picking up the wrong signals and pouring fuel and retarding timing to our sleds (05s).Than the egt probe picks up the hot temperqatures of the unburned fuels being burned in the pipe and that sets off another fault and more fuel and timingretarded.Sleds dropping rpms in the topend after long pulls or sometimes just short pulls.
I read this my self so I know it is to be true,Know what are they doing about this issue?? I dont know as of yet but all the guys that had their 05 program reinstalled in their sleds dont have a working knock sensor!!Your ECU dosnt have a program in it to reconize the knock sensor!!
So I am going to wait before having the 05 program put back in to see if they come up with a fix for this sensitive knock program.They came up with a fix for the stalling after starting,,so who knows.
But BRP is listining to all,this letter came out because of all the buzz out there on the internet as they put it,And they swear to this statment about the two ECU programs are identical other than the start up(for plug fouling) and the Nonfunctional 05 knock sensor!
I have seen the light!! Makes sense,Y/N?
[snapback]691453[/snapback]​
Great post and thanks for the info!


Okay, now what doo we doo?

Might be a dumb question - but is there a way to disable the knock sensor?
[snapback]692072[/snapback]​
yeah you can disable it , just pull the wires on it
and plug a external one in
Just make sure you run good fuel cause its not gonna protect itself,

This is the same exact thing the Grand Nationals and Turbo trans am's had
I worked on a few cars that had "UPDATED" billet timing chains put in, the stock ones had nylon gears, aftermarket ones were steel,,,, GUESS WHAT had a few customers that were complaining about slow ET's at the track and ALOT OF KNOCK on the SCANTOOL. After seeing a pattern, the timing set was yanked off and a STOCK NYLON one put back on.. PRESTO >> NO MORE KNOCK and ET's came back.

You can unplug the knock sensor and put in a dummy one, BUT let me caution you... BETTER make 100 % sure you GET GOOD FUEL,

Its really easy to test the above run a 93/100 mix of gas, unplug the knock add a dummy, insolate it from vibration and go and run the sled.

Now im not a betting man, but my bet ...... SKIDOO KNOWS ALOT MORE than there letting out.
[snapback]692180[/snapback]​
So last season we 05 owners were running w/out a knock senser? Like myself, most people were probably just filling up with premiun gas from wherever we happend to be with littel regard to fuel quality. Didn't seem like there were that many burndowns last year. Were can you get a dummy plug?????
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
579 Posts
turbo89 said:
mrdoo-ski said:
joewin said:
Now for anyone interested on the truth about what really happened with the 06 mapping in your 05.
I was at my dealer and read this for myself off bossweb site,what really happened to our sleds when they were remaped to the 06 mapping.
To start the 05 ecu program and the 06 ecu program have the same fuel mapping and the exact same timing curve.Nothing was changed from the 05 to the 06 program!!
The remapping was done to address the plug fouling issue everyone was experiancing,so they leaned out the start program,which was too lean,so there is another update to correct that start problem.
The other issue that had to be covered was the knock sensor,All the 05s,the ecu didnot reconize the knock sensor.In other words blowing up last year was not a problem because are ECU did not reconize that we had knock sensors.
So in the 06 program,the ECU is way to sensitive in reconizing the knock sensor,so what happens is slightest vibrations or bad fuel or long pulls it would miss interpit any kind of knock as a problem and start adding fuel and retarding timing to correct the knocking problem and at the sametime the pipe is loading up on fuel burning it in the pipe which inturn sets off the probe in the pipe,and the probe is telling the ECU that the engine is running to hot so it all so adds more fuel and less timing to try to fix the hot pipe program!!
When all that is really wrong is the sensitivity of the ECU program for the knock sensor is to sensitive.Hope this makes some sense,but again the fuel mapping and the timing curve from 05 and the 06 program are identical,unchanged the same. All the sleds that are dropping off in topend is caused from a knock senser that this year is being reconized by the ECU,and faultly picking up the wrong signals and pouring fuel and retarding timing to our sleds (05s).Than the egt probe picks up the hot temperqatures of the unburned fuels being burned in the pipe and that sets off another fault and more fuel and timingretarded.Sleds dropping rpms in the topend after long pulls or sometimes just short pulls.
I read this my self so I know it is to be true,Know what are they doing about this issue?? I dont know as of yet but all the guys that had their 05 program reinstalled in their sleds dont have a working knock sensor!!Your ECU dosnt have a program in it to reconize the knock sensor!!
So I am going to wait before having the 05 program put back in to see if they come up with a fix for this sensitive knock program.They came up with a fix for the stalling after starting,,so who knows.
But BRP is listining to all,this letter came out because of all the buzz out there on the internet as they put it,And they swear to this statment about the two ECU programs are identical other than the start up(for plug fouling) and the Nonfunctional 05 knock sensor!
I have seen the light!! Makes sense,Y/N?
[snapback]691453[/snapback]​
Great post and thanks for the info!


Okay, now what doo we doo?

Might be a dumb question - but is there a way to disable the knock sensor?
[snapback]692072[/snapback]​
yeah you can disable it , just pull the wires on it
and plug a external one in
Just make sure you run good fuel cause its not gonna protect itself,

This is the same exact thing the Grand Nationals and Turbo trans am's had
I worked on a few cars that had "UPDATED" billet timing chains put in, the stock ones had nylon gears, aftermarket ones were steel,,,, GUESS WHAT had a few customers that were complaining about slow ET's at the track and ALOT OF KNOCK on the SCANTOOL. After seeing a pattern, the timing set was yanked off and a STOCK NYLON one put back on.. PRESTO >> NO MORE KNOCK and ET's came back.

You can unplug the knock sensor and put in a dummy one, BUT let me caution you... BETTER make 100 % sure you GET GOOD FUEL,

Its really easy to test the above run a 93/100 mix of gas, unplug the knock add a dummy, insolate it from vibration and go and run the sled.

Now im not a betting man, but my bet ...... SKIDOO KNOWS ALOT MORE than there letting out.
[snapback]692180[/snapback]​
Only problem is in the above post they say the sensor is so sensative it may be picking up "other" noises not detonation, id hate to think all these motors were on the verge of detonation when running 125mph last year. I thought a while back this was the problem with my sled. 2 weeks ago I was seeinf my rpm's drop 400 on top end. i added some octane boost, enough to get it to maybe 98 octane and nothing at all changed. It also didnt change when I added domes this year.

It still sounds like this may be the problem only what the sensor is picking up isnt detonation. Maybe this is why some peoples sleds run fine with the updates and some dont.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,040 Posts
This should all be noticed on EGT's - has anyone seen the temps at WOT reflect this? This is where having data from the sensors & computer would be valuable, if the knock sensor wasn;t working last year then these motors are bullet proof because there seems to be more burning down this year then last, maybe having the knock sensor not working isn't that bad of an idea. I'll stay with the 05 mapping untill this all gets worked out......at least it worked.
 
1 - 20 of 80 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top