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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
When I first joined DooTalk there were a number of owners who took a special interest with the 1K and we tried our best to understand this beast. We were all fighting to figure out the reasons why these behemoths were failing and how to avoid the aftermath. At times we created such a ruckus that it eventually drew us apart even further. It got to the point that it turned into a choice between BRP designed the engine to fail, or they were not running right. To me this was the demise of the 1000 SDI on the DooTalk forum.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yup :)
 

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The fuel system was always the downfall of the 1k...... you had one... so did I .

It always has sadden me as to why Doo quit the program...... but the 09 SDI was a monster for those who got one
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
On the fuel system, the best piece of history I have found to date was from SkidooJunky. I was once told that he nearly fell through the ice from a failed electrical Lift Pump - aka Posi-Flow Fuel Pump.
 

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That incident changed how owners could detect fuel pump failures early.
 

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Came from the factory with the oil pump set too Lean, Price and a lack of sales . Seemed like everyone had a Rev 800 ! Lots of riders I talked to didn't even know the 1000cc was available !
 

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Doo Certified Master tech who worked on them when they first came out told me customers were coming back asking if 60:1 to 70:1 was normal for this sled. There was zero oil compensations for break-in like the ETECs. From another dealer I was told BRP were instructing them to bump the oil for shortblocks and turn it back down after a few tanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
So true. Tim Torkelson once asked BRP if they would change the ERAVE to include a middle position like the 800R. BRP replied online that they were happy with the performance and we wouldn't see a change anytime soon. Just imagine if it has the throttle response of the 2017 850RE. It would be a BEAST!!!

Dave Trygstad's TMS G4 850-927 is getting close to a 1K with all the benefits of 12 more years in development.

Have a look at this Q/A. The best one I found from BRP other than the cool stuff BRP answered on DooTalk that eventually got deleted. Thankfully BlueMax remembered most of it and posted on this forum.

Home / How To & Tech / Ask the Experts / You Asked: Ski-Doo discloses
FROM THE February 2007 ISSUE
http://www.amsnow.com/how-to-tech/ask-experts/2007/01/you-asked-ski-doo-discloses

You Asked: Ski-Doo discloses
January 5, 2007

Straight out of Valcourt, Canada, to your door, the engineers at Ski-Doo have responded to our online members' early season questions.

We have already had replies from Polaris and Arctic Cat, and now it's Ski-Doo's turn to explain the why's and how's posed to them by you.

There are some great queries here, one may correspond to your machine so take a look!

Under the hood

Q.) Do you foresee putting the 3D RAVE system on the SDI 1000? Why isn't there a thermostat on this sled?
- AmSnow.com member Tim Torkelson

A.) Don't look for the 3D RAVE system on the 1000 SDI anytime soon - the current stepper motor system on the 1000 works awesome. We don't need a thermostat on this motor, or the new 800R PowerTEK, because of state-of-the-art design. Our engines' sophisticated electronics better control warm-up and sense problems. The cooling system itself is very advanced - there is 30% more coolant flow (130 L vs. 100 L), and added capacity around the cylinders and crankcase.

Q.) Are you working on the problems with the ECU on the 1000 Mach Z and Summit? How is the problem of the R.A.V.E.s being opened at 7,000 rpm and the throttle position being only at about 15%, making the engine run very rich, then bogging when you throttle wide open, being corrected?

My ECU acts like it doesn't know how to control the situation. The same thing occurs when I do a long pull across the lake and burp the throttle at the end.
- AmSnow.com member Bill Cudney

A.) On the Mach and Renegade sleds, our testing found the same issues you did. There were a handful of overlapping lines in the thousands of lines of code in the Engine Control Module (ECM). We've updated these codes. All '07 Mach and Renegade models have this new mapping and it can be flashed into previous models.

Q.) What changes were made to the air box on the 800R?
- AmSnow.com member Utahted

A.) We assume you're comparing it to the 800 H.O. PowerTEK in which the external dimension of the air box is the same - as it's part of the REV platform. But the inside is redesigned with a larger inner tube, for freer breathing and reduced sound.

Q.) I read that the 800cc SDI motor is no longer available due to a lack of crankcase cooling. Ski-Doo released a limited version of the 800R with crankcase cooling this year, but why not an 800 EFI version as well? Many REV owners, who are not satisfied with a 600 SDI, have been waiting every year in anticipation of an 800 EFI model. I won't buy another carbureted sled and feel it's time for another 150+ hp EFI choice without the weight of the Mach.
- AmSnow.com member Russ Dettlaff

A.) Russ, this is an important issue, but you're forcing yourself to make a false choice. You probably "refuse to buy another carbureted sled" because you want crisp throttle response, good fuel economy, lower emissions, reduced smoke and smell and state-of-the art electronics.

These are not just benefits of our SDI engines, but benefits of our entire family of 2-TEC engines. Both of our 800cc engines - the 800 H.O. PowerTEK and 800R PowerTEK - have carburetors. But they meet all of the above criteria. They are both U.S. EPA certified for emissions. They both lead their class in fuel mileage - and get better mileage than many 4-strokes. Their electronics package is every bit as sophisticated, if not more so, than our SDI motors. Throttle response is instant, they automatically compensate for altitude, weather, your driving style and can protect themselves with their various sensors monitoring engine behavior. They even automatically optimize performance for the octane of the fuel you put in.

In snowmobiling, we need to get away from false choices based on misperceptions: 4-stroke vs. 2-stroke, "EFI" vs. "carbureted" - instead we hope people will rate technologies/snowmobiles based on their true performance. There is more than one way to skin a cat and we're using the best available technology at this time for the application and price-point. As technology advances, you can be sure that BRP will be on the cutting edge of lightweight 2-stroke powerplants.

Take a look at our MXZ Blizzard or Adrenaline with the 800 H.O. PowerTEK engine. We're confident you'll love it.

Additional Web only questions

Q.) Can anything be done to correct the excessive heat in the crankshaft on the 1000, which transfers heat to the clutch creating high belt temperatures regardless of what you do with the clutching? Even though clutching this sled does help bring down the belt temps.
- AmSnow.com member Bill Cudney

A.) There is not excessive heat in the crankshaft - this is one of the coolest running engines made. The crankshaft heat you're describing is more likely starting from the clutches. Heat is not an issue specific to Ski-Doo - it is happening to all brands as a result of the tight underhood packaging needed to meet ever-tougher sound regulations. Nevertheless, we're constantly working on new ways to cool the engine bay while meeting those regulations.

Q.) Why all the secrecy around the 500SS? Mine absolutely rips and I can hang with any other 600 and some 7s and 8s. Why is there no mention in any of your brochures about this engine actually being a 600? I never see any real advertisements for it either and when I bought mine, it was hundreds cheaper than any other comparable sled. Maybe that's not a bad thing because I'll just keep blowing away my buddies with my "500" stealth rocket.
- AmSnow.com member Clutchit3

A.) If you're "blowing away your buddies," why do you want us to give away your secret? Seriously, we're offering this 600 at the price of a 500 because we can. We named it 500SS (Short Stroke) so it would be cross-shopped with the competitive 500s.

Q.) What do all the letters after your sleds stand for? (GSX, GTX, MXZ, SWT, X-RS, etc.) I have a hard enough time remembering what my own initials stand for!
- AmSnow.com member Fullpackage

A.) Yes, we do love our acronyms at Ski-Doo. Here are most of them:

GSX - Grand Sport
GTX - Grand Touring
MXZ - Motocross
SWT - Super Wide Track
X-RS - Racing Special
DESS - Digitally Encoded Security System
ECM - Engine Control Module
H.O. - High Output
HPG - High Pressure Gas
MC - Motion Control
PowerTEK - Throttle position sensor/e-RAVE/Knock sensor
RAVE - Rotax Adjustable Variable Exhaust
eRAVE - electronic Rotax Adjustable Variable Exhaust
RAS - Response Angle Suspension
RER - Rotax Electronic Reverse
SC - Super Comfort
SDI - Semi-Direct Injection
500SS - 500 Short Stroke
T-A - Take-Apart
TRA - Total Range Adjustable
VR - Variable Rate
WT - Wide Track
...the X usually doesn't mean anything... we just like it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Note the 2007 800R Carb was in some ways more sophisticated than the SDI. The Anti-Knock strategy on the 800R was made to not only back timing like the SDI, but also add fuel like the ETEC!!! We have the documentation from BRP showing this and José Boisjolie confirmed it in person during one the dealer presentations several years later. This is the reason why an Air/Fuel Gauge is important on a 1K. Too many 1Ks are running lean in the mids and that's where most of them turn into a parts sled. Well working ERAVE and good System Voltage is is just as important.
 

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Note the 2007 800R Carb was in some ways more sophisticated than the SDI. The Anti-Knock strategy on the 800R was made to not only back timing like the SDI, but also add fuel like the ETEC!!! We have the documentation from BRP showing this and José Boisjolie confirmed it in person during one the dealer presentations several years later. This is the reason why an Air/Fuel Gauge is important on a 1K. Too many 1Ks are running lean in the mids and that's where most of them turn into a parts sled. Well working ERAVE and good System Voltage is is just as important.
Reading all of this surely make's me wonder......what kind of surprises should i expext next season having bought one this spring ... knowing that i am mostly a trail rider with a 50 mph average....far from a full throttle type ryder ...???? ( mach 1000 sdi that is )
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Reading all of this surely make's me wonder......what kind of surprises should i expext next season having bought one this spring ... knowing that i am mostly a trail rider with a 50 mph average....far from a full throttle type ryder ... ( mach 1000 sdi that is )
Huh, I thought you were messing with triples and vintage sleds. I didn't see the 1K in your sig until now. Cool! Is it here on the South Shore? If you like we can take a visit to a few shops in our area that have dealt with some of these issues from day 1.
 

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Huh, I thought you were messing with triples and vintage sleds. I didn't see the 1K in your sig until now. Cool! Is it here on the South Shore? If you like we can take a visit to a few shops in our area that have dealt with some of these issues from day 1.
No...sad to say but that one's sitting at " north shore " cabin in my newly build 65 x 45 garage. I guess i like messing with everything that makes " vroum- vroum " lol. Still unconfortable about last purchase though....that is where the forum thread's about those will be helpful. ( hope so !! ) ???? ( this visiting shops offer sounds interesting !!. )
 

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You ever notice the 850 cylinder looked a lot like the 1k
I just found a picture that Dave Trygstad posted of 850RE combustion chamber. I didn't realize the squish area was ~5% larger than the 1K and nearly the same as the Evinrude ETEC G2. Is this the ETEC combustion evolution from the G2 that BRP said would eventually make its way to sleds?

Edit: The Rotax 600/800HOs, 600/800/1000 SDIs, 800R and 600/800 ETECs appear to have similar Squish Area around 54%. I added the Arctic Cat 600 C-TEC2 which is the largest I've seen in recent years. The Yamaha Blaster was the clear winner with roughly 74% Squish Area. I also added the Polaris 850 Patriot. If it wasn't for the roll-over on the Ski-Doo, the percentage would match between both 850s.

Ski-Doo 1000 SDI (roughly 54%)

Sink Plumbing fixture Automotive tire Rim Automotive wheel system

Ski-Doo 850RE (roughly 58%)

Automotive tire Audio equipment Gas Auto part Machine

Polaris 850 Patriot (roughly 58%)

Tire Wheel Automotive tire Bicycle part Bicycle hub

Arctic Cat 600 C-TEC2 (roughly 68%)

Wheel Tire Automotive tire Light Locking hubs

Yamaha Blaster 200 (roughly 74%)

Bicycle part Automotive tire Rim Automotive wheel system Font
 

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Case Studies

Sometimes we only need to see the good ones vs the bad ones to see how we can make these machines work a little better. First thing Early Rider did to his 2005 MachZ 1000 SDI was to adjust the oil injection to 36:1 and switched to XPS Mineral. The sled ran pretty much flawless for 10,000 miles. His 2006 Renegade 1000 SDI was a horror story from day 1.

Gade Catches Fire
Started By Early Rider, Jan 18 2006 11:50 AM
http://www.dootalk.com/forums/topic/82549-gade-catches-fire/
 

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So true. Tim Torkelson once asked BRP if they would change the ERAVE to include a middle position like the 800R. BRP replied online that they were happy with the performance and we wouldn't see a change anytime soon. Just imagine if it has the throttle response of the 2017 850RE. It would be a BEAST!!!

Dave Trygstad's TMS G4 850-927 is getting close to a 1K with all the benefits of 12 more years in development.

Have a look at this Q/A. The best one I found from BRP other than the cool stuff BRP answered on DooTalk that eventually got deleted. Thankfully BlueMax remembered most of it and posted on this forum.

Home / How To & Tech / Ask the Experts / You Asked: Ski-Doo discloses
FROM THE February 2007 ISSUE
http://www.amsnow.com/how-to-tech/ask-experts/2007/01/you-asked-ski-doo-discloses

You Asked: Ski-Doo discloses
January 5, 2007

Straight out of Valcourt, Canada, to your door, the engineers at Ski-Doo have responded to our online members' early season questions.

We have already had replies from Polaris and Arctic Cat, and now it's Ski-Doo's turn to explain the why's and how's posed to them by you.

There are some great queries here, one may correspond to your machine so take a look!

Under the hood

Q.) Do you foresee putting the 3D RAVE system on the SDI 1000? Why isn't there a thermostat on this sled?
- AmSnow.com member Tim Torkelson

A.) Don't look for the 3D RAVE system on the 1000 SDI anytime soon - the current stepper motor system on the 1000 works awesome. We don't need a thermostat on this motor, or the new 800R PowerTEK, because of state-of-the-art design. Our engines' sophisticated electronics better control warm-up and sense problems. The cooling system itself is very advanced - there is 30% more coolant flow (130 L vs. 100 L), and added capacity around the cylinders and crankcase.

Q.) Are you working on the problems with the ECU on the 1000 Mach Z and Summit? How is the problem of the R.A.V.E.s being opened at 7,000 rpm and the throttle position being only at about 15%, making the engine run very rich, then bogging when you throttle wide open, being corrected?

My ECU acts like it doesn't know how to control the situation. The same thing occurs when I do a long pull across the lake and burp the throttle at the end.
- AmSnow.com member Bill Cudney

A.) On the Mach and Renegade sleds, our testing found the same issues you did. There were a handful of overlapping lines in the thousands of lines of code in the Engine Control Module (ECM). We've updated these codes. All '07 Mach and Renegade models have this new mapping and it can be flashed into previous models.

Q.) What changes were made to the air box on the 800R?
- AmSnow.com member Utahted

A.) We assume you're comparing it to the 800 H.O. PowerTEK in which the external dimension of the air box is the same - as it's part of the REV platform. But the inside is redesigned with a larger inner tube, for freer breathing and reduced sound.

Q.) I read that the 800cc SDI motor is no longer available due to a lack of crankcase cooling. Ski-Doo released a limited version of the 800R with crankcase cooling this year, but why not an 800 EFI version as well? Many REV owners, who are not satisfied with a 600 SDI, have been waiting every year in anticipation of an 800 EFI model. I won't buy another carbureted sled and feel it's time for another 150+ hp EFI choice without the weight of the Mach.
- AmSnow.com member Russ Dettlaff

A.) Russ, this is an important issue, but you're forcing yourself to make a false choice. You probably "refuse to buy another carbureted sled" because you want crisp throttle response, good fuel economy, lower emissions, reduced smoke and smell and state-of-the art electronics.

These are not just benefits of our SDI engines, but benefits of our entire family of 2-TEC engines. Both of our 800cc engines - the 800 H.O. PowerTEK and 800R PowerTEK - have carburetors. But they meet all of the above criteria. They are both U.S. EPA certified for emissions. They both lead their class in fuel mileage - and get better mileage than many 4-strokes. Their electronics package is every bit as sophisticated, if not more so, than our SDI motors. Throttle response is instant, they automatically compensate for altitude, weather, your driving style and can protect themselves with their various sensors monitoring engine behavior. They even automatically optimize performance for the octane of the fuel you put in.

In snowmobiling, we need to get away from false choices based on misperceptions: 4-stroke vs. 2-stroke, "EFI" vs. "carbureted" - instead we hope people will rate technologies/snowmobiles based on their true performance. There is more than one way to skin a cat and we're using the best available technology at this time for the application and price-point. As technology advances, you can be sure that BRP will be on the cutting edge of lightweight 2-stroke powerplants.

Take a look at our MXZ Blizzard or Adrenaline with the 800 H.O. PowerTEK engine. We're confident you'll love it.

Additional Web only questions

Q.) Can anything be done to correct the excessive heat in the crankshaft on the 1000, which transfers heat to the clutch creating high belt temperatures regardless of what you do with the clutching? Even though clutching this sled does help bring down the belt temps.
- AmSnow.com member Bill Cudney

A.) There is not excessive heat in the crankshaft - this is one of the coolest running engines made. The crankshaft heat you're describing is more likely starting from the clutches. Heat is not an issue specific to Ski-Doo - it is happening to all brands as a result of the tight underhood packaging needed to meet ever-tougher sound regulations. Nevertheless, we're constantly working on new ways to cool the engine bay while meeting those regulations.

Q.) Why all the secrecy around the 500SS? Mine absolutely rips and I can hang with any other 600 and some 7s and 8s. Why is there no mention in any of your brochures about this engine actually being a 600? I never see any real advertisements for it either and when I bought mine, it was hundreds cheaper than any other comparable sled. Maybe that's not a bad thing because I'll just keep blowing away my buddies with my "500" stealth rocket.
- AmSnow.com member Clutchit3

A.) If you're "blowing away your buddies," why do you want us to give away your secret? Seriously, we're offering this 600 at the price of a 500 because we can. We named it 500SS (Short Stroke) so it would be cross-shopped with the competitive 500s.

Q.) What do all the letters after your sleds stand for? (GSX, GTX, MXZ, SWT, X-RS, etc.) I have a hard enough time remembering what my own initials stand for!
- AmSnow.com member Fullpackage

A.) Yes, we do love our acronyms at Ski-Doo. Here are most of them:

GSX - Grand Sport
GTX - Grand Touring
MXZ - Motocross
SWT - Super Wide Track
X-RS - Racing Special
DESS - Digitally Encoded Security System
ECM - Engine Control Module
H.O. - High Output
HPG - High Pressure Gas
MC - Motion Control
PowerTEK - Throttle position sensor/e-RAVE/Knock sensor
RAVE - Rotax Adjustable Variable Exhaust
eRAVE - electronic Rotax Adjustable Variable Exhaust
RAS - Response Angle Suspension
RER - Rotax Electronic Reverse
SC - Super Comfort
SDI - Semi-Direct Injection
500SS - 500 Short Stroke
T-A - Take-Apart
TRA - Total Range Adjustable
VR - Variable Rate
WT - Wide Track
...the X usually doesn't mean anything... we just like it.
great read

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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great read

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It was a mediocre read imo, but the best I could find from BRP. There was zero explanation to why these sleds keep falling apart or why they have he worst reputation on the planet next to the Polaris 900. We all know from personal experience that reputation is everything. One bad job gets more voices than two good ones.

From another topic I saw those upgrades didn't help your sled go past 500 miles which brings me to a few questions from your experience:

1. Which of those upgrades had given you faith that it should have lasted 5,000+ miles?

2. Out of everything you have read on this forum, what do you find is missing to build an assurance for new owners who plan on buy one?
 

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It was a mediocre read imo, but the best I could find from BRP. There was zero explanation to why these sleds keep falling apart or why they have he worst reputation on the planet next to the Polaris 900. We all know from personal experience that reputation is everything. One bad job gets more voices than two good ones.

From another topic I saw those upgrades didn't help your sled go past 500 miles which brings me to a few questions from your experience:

1. Which of those upgrades had given you faith that it should have lasted 5,000+ miles?

2. Out of everything you have read on this forum, what do you find is missing to build an assurance for new owners who plan on buy one?
WOW.....i thought after reading all topics from early rider's joy about owning a 1k sdi ,all they ( doo talk member's ) have left to try was ...pedal's with a chain and gear's to get this sled going right !!! Incredible..... bring's me to one thing to do...better wear my working glove's on every times i dare to put my sexy ass on that seat for riding around !!!.
 

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I know some of the racers have, but have you guys considered moving away from the SDI setup for a simplified carb setup?

On top of that pre-mixing your fuel instead of just upping the oil injection ratio?

In my mind, it eliminates a ton of the problems associated with the 1000SDI. No need to run a high pressure pump anymore. No more lean condition if a pump fails. No need to run a gauge to watch fuel pressure. No need to run this map or that map. No need to have fuel control box. No need to worry if your injectors are balanced any more. No need to worry about the transition point between LS and HS injector.

I'm not saying that running carbs would end all the problems, or even create some new ones...but it seems like a better solution for me and my 1240 BB kit.
 
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