Ski-Doo Snowmobiles Forum banner
81 - 100 of 178 Posts

Premium Member
Joined
28,166 Posts
Keep up the good work and there will be more things that you wished you had learned before. Do you see the signature from each member? The one from Letmgrow is worth reading over and over.
 

Registered
97 formula III 600
Joined
81 Posts
Discussion Starter · #82 ·
Perhaps a missing or sheered keyway? Or maybe a replacement magneto with the keyway in the wrong location?

Most things that have been mentioned so far is relatively easy to check. I am not all that familiar with any difficulties in measuring the stator ignition coil as Letmgrow mentioned, but I think he was only cautioning that a failed test could be a false negative and don't let it lead you to replacing the stator just because that one test may fail.

From what I can see, so far the biggest obstacle has been worrying about what if and will it break the budget. Those thoughts will lead to an aneurysm. At this point I don't think that you need to worry about investing any more money, but rather on diagnosing the problem. Now that it is on a bench there are things worth doing. Just take one step and see where it leads. You are no longer fighting this battle on your own.
The key and keyway are good and appears to be the original magneto, maybe.
All readings (coils,trigger, stator) are within specs.

My frustration level is through the roof with this thing.
My fault for being optimistic (not my strong suit) that the fire damage was all that was wrong with it.

I remember the timing, when I was checking the crank phase, seemed a little weird ,but it is a ski dont afterall ,so I didn't really pay much attention to it at the time.
I'll be getting the seal and gasket tomorrow and put it back together and check it out.

My last Doo, many years ago, was like a vacuum cleaner with my wallet and why I jumped off the Doo wagon. Dejavu is starting to rear its ugly head again.

I'm starting to wonder if the fire was intentional but then realized he just filled the fuel tank and didn't want to waste it so he put it out and pumped it all out before he left it..

I do appreciate all the input with this and why I'm here hoping for a miracle. I'm no genius but consider myself above average and not afraid of reaching out for help.

I remember some saying about putting hope in one hand and **** in the other and see what you have left, or something like that. Lol

The leaves are changing colours already up here in the Muskokas so maybe we'll finally get a decent winter ! 馃榾
 

Premium Member
Joined
28,166 Posts
The key and keyway are good and appears to be the original magneto, maybe.
All readings (coils,trigger, stator) are within specs.

My frustration level is through the roof with this thing.
My fault for being optimistic (not my strong suit) that the fire damage was all that was wrong with it.

I remember the timing, when I was checking the crank phase, seemed a little weird ,but it is a ski dont afterall ,so I didn't really pay much attention to it at the time.
I'll be getting the seal and gasket tomorrow and put it back together and check it out.

My last Doo, many years ago, was like a vacuum cleaner with my wallet and why I jumped off the Doo wagon. Dejavu is starting to rear its ugly head again.

I'm starting to wonder if the fire was intentional but then realized he just filled the fuel tank and didn't want to waste it so he put it out and pumped it all out before he left it..

I do appreciate all the input with this and why I'm here hoping for a miracle. I'm no genius but consider myself above average and not afraid of reaching out for help.

I remember some saying about putting hope in one hand and **** in the other and see what you have left, or something like that. Lol

The leaves are changing colours already up here in the Muskokas so maybe we'll finally get a decent winter ! 馃榾
I kinda picked-up on the frustration. There are three big lessons that I learned on DooTalk.

#1 The problems are typically posted once the owners have reached their wits end. It is not always like this sine the odd person does post before this happens. The thing is when this point is reached, there is very little room to maneuver.

#2 I ALWAYS assume the owner knows more than I do. I may know more in certain areas, but this is where it usually ends.

#3 I avoid trying to solve a problem the easy way because most times it will not work. This goes back to #2. Now take a closer look at the people who are posting in your thread and ask yourself how/why they/us/we are posting in the dead of summer on your thread? It obviously stems from a love of snowmobiles, but it is far more than that. The vast majority of folks who post their troubles on this forum will be in and out to never return. Those who stick around is because a home was found like being part of a club.

Before joining DooTalk I thought that I had a pretty good foundation. I obviously did have a level of experience. After my exposure to snowmobile enthusiasts I realized that it didn't count as much as I thought it did. What I am trying to say is that when you writing to those who post on your thread, they typically have gained a level of experience that has grown far beyond what they could have learned on their experience. I don't mean copying other people's experience because this does not work. I am referring to people who have gained the experience through DooTalk and applied it themselves. For example, I have a certain level of experience with diagnosing ignition problems, but less with CDI failures. ilovemyskidoo mentioned CDI failures because he has seen more of them. We can't have all the same experiences.

I would like to see you to start with what you set out to do with the engine on the bench. We will just have to deal with whatever happens after. In the mean time, I am just conversing with the hope to get your mind off of this craziness. I am due South of Montreal and leafs are just beginning to turn. Each week-end I try to take a trip to the mountains out in the Eastern Townships while there are still things happening. Fortunately I was there last week while there were still events happening. Last week-end I drove hours to Abercorne to get my last M茅choui poutine before they close for the season lol

This is the way.
 

Premium Member
Joined
28,166 Posts
The key and keyway are good and appears to be the original magneto, maybe.
All readings (coils,trigger, stator) are within specs.
I have to say that I am impressed that you bothered to check. Does this also mean that you also checked what ilovemyskidoo suggested with the timing?
 

Registered
97 formula III 600
Joined
81 Posts
Discussion Starter · #85 ·
I kinda picked-up on the frustration. There are three big lessons that I learned on DooTalk.

#1 The problems are typically posted once the owners have reached their wits end. It is not always like this sine the odd person does post before this happens. The thing is when this point is reached, there is very little room to maneuver.

#2 I ALWAYS assume the owner knows more than I do. I may know more in certain areas, but this is where it usually ends.

#3 I avoid trying to solve a problem the easy way because most times it will not work. This goes back to #2. Now take a closer look at the people who are posting in your thread and ask yourself how/why they/us/we are posting in the dead of summer on your thread? It obviously stems from a love of snowmobiles, but it is far more than that. The vast majority of folks who post their troubles on this forum will be in and out to never return. Those who stick around is because a home was found like being part of a club.

Before joining DooTalk I thought that I had a pretty good foundation. I obviously did have a level of experience. After my exposure to snowmobile enthusiasts I realized that it didn't count as much as I thought it did. What I am trying to say is that when you writing to those who post on your thread, they typically have gained a level of experience that has grown far beyond what they could have learned on their experience. I don't mean copying other people's experience because this does not work. I am referring to people who have gained the experience through DooTalk and applied it themselves. For example, I have a certain level of experience with diagnosing ignition problems, but less with CDI failures. ilovemyskidoo mentioned CDI failures because he has seen more of them. We can't have all the same experiences.

I would like to see you to start with what you set out to do with the engine on the bench. We will just have to deal with whatever happens after. In the mean time, I am just conversing with the hope to get your mind off of this craziness. I am due South of Montreal and leafs are just beginning to turn. Each week-end I try to take a trip to the mountains out in the Eastern Townships while there are still things happening. Fortunately I was there last week while there were still events happening. Last week-end I drove hours to Abercorne to get my last M茅choui poutine before they close for the season lol

This is the way.
I was browsing through this site for the 3 months before I finally joined.
I did notice a lot of long time members that seem to have a good bit of knowledge and advice. After going over lots of posts , I couldn't find anything really related to my issues ,so I decided to join up and see what happens.
Evidently I made a good decision and grateful for all the responses.
Great bunch of guys to talk with for sure.

I spent over 20 years driving trucks between Toronto and Montreal.
Half that time was spent in Montreal and environs ,and DAMN !! , the women are GORGEOUS down there !!
Nothing like rush hour on a hot day with a view from a truck.!
Ahh the memories, I miss those days.!
Over the years I met a lot of great people all over PQ and if I could turn back time, I would absolutely move there !!
Sure miss the great food like poutine, tourtiere pie or even better, Schwartz's smoked meat.!!! I also discovered that the pizzas were great but don't ever order extra cheese.! ! Lol

The battle will continue for now and will certainly follow any advice provided. I'm getting a little concerned about the timing issue.
Going to pick up parts tomorrow and get back to it soon.
 

Registered
97 formula III 600
Joined
81 Posts
Discussion Starter · #86 ·
I have to say that I am impressed that you bothered to check. Does this also mean that you also checked what ilovemyskidoo suggested with the timing?
Will be checking every bit of advice he has to offer when I get it back together. I'm thinking that the timing is going to be the problem. Concerned on why and how to fix it though.
 

Registered
Joined
2,551 Posts
While I have a few minutes. I've been trying to follow this but keep getting interrupted.
To answer Daag 44's question. The stator test I was referring to is a static test done with an ohm meter. I still haven't gotten over to retrieve my notes outlining the test points or values.
Getting back to the crankshaft seals. It's good you are replacing the two end seals but as I mentioned in my previous post the two seals between cylinders are important too. Have you inspected them as I outlined in my post? You need a bright light and a magnifying glass to thoroughly check these seals looking for the tiniest crack or flaw in the seals. If you turn these seals on the crank you should feel a significant amount of drag. Also a close look at the plastic cages holding the bearing balls in place. Any defect anywhere should put a halt on the engine's reassembly.
Getting back to the stator. You don't necessarily have to buy a new stator. There is a fellow in Canada who rewinds stators at a cost below the cost of a new stator (no longer available from BRP). I'm not a huge fan of aftermarket stators.
Once you have reassembled the engine and can run it let us know how it's working out for you.
FYI: Welcome to Stator Kev's
 

Registered
97 formula III 600
Joined
81 Posts
Discussion Starter · #88 ·
While I have a few minutes. I've been trying to follow this but keep getting interrupted.
To answer Daag 44's question. The stator test I was referring to is a static test done with an ohm meter. I still haven't gotten over to retrieve my notes outlining the test points or values.
Getting back to the crankshaft seals. It's good you are replacing the two end seals but as I mentioned in my previous post the two seals between cylinders are important too. Have you inspected them as I outlined in my post? You need a bright light and a magnifying glass to thoroughly check these seals looking for the tiniest crack or flaw in the seals. If you turn these seals on the crank you should feel a significant amount of drag. Also a close look at the plastic cages holding the bearing balls in place. Any defect anywhere should put a halt on the engine's reassembly.
Getting back to the stator. You don't necessarily have to buy a new stator. There is a fellow in Canada who rewinds stators at a cost below the cost of a new stator (no longer available from BRP). I'm not a huge fan of aftermarket stators.
Once you have reassembled the engine and can run it let us know how it's working out for you.
FYI: Welcome to Stator Kev's
I used the shop manual for testing the whole ignition system and everything is within specs.

The only seals I am interested in changing are the outer ones.
If I went as far as tearing it down to check the inner seals, I would send it out to have them replaced regardless of condition but that would definitely blow the budget for this project.

According to the shop manual, the stator passed all the tests.
I'm at the breaking point with the budget for this year.
Even getting the stator rewound would cost to much for fuel to drive down twice or paying for shipping. Royal has them for around $300.

I'm heading out to pick up the parts to start putting it back together and then investigate the timing.
Something was off about it when I took it apart but didn't have the shop manual to investigate it at the time.
If memory serves me well, it was off by a considerable amount and likely the problem. I'm a little concerned on how and why though.
 

Registered
Joined
2,551 Posts
You say you are going to replace the outer crankshaft seals. If so you will have the crankshaft out of the cases to do it correctly. What is the big deal about checking the inner seals and the bearing cages?
Please don't tell us you are going to try replacing the outside crankshaft seals without splitting the cases.
 

Registered
97 formula III 600
Joined
81 Posts
Discussion Starter · #90 ·
You say you are going to replace the outer crankshaft seals. If so you will have the crankshaft out of the cases to do it correctly. What is the big deal about checking the inner seals and the bearing cages?
Please don't tell us you are going to try replacing the outside crankshaft seals without splitting the cases.
My original plan was to replace both, and YES I was going to cheat on the pto side.
I've done it on others before with success.
BUT , because I didn't really see anything wrong with the mag side seal , I decided to change that one only , just because it's already apart.
Cylinder #3 was the only one that consistently worked so doubt that seal is a problem.

Picked up the seal and gasket today.
Might get back to it tomorrow and then get a look at the timing again.
 

Registered
Joined
3,084 Posts
Not that it really matters but which cylinder are you saying is #3 mag side or pto?
 

Premium Member
Joined
28,166 Posts
When you wrote that that seal for #3 was no doubt a problem, did you mean to write <not a problem>?

I am glad that someone asked which cylinder was #3. I have been wondering the same.
 

Registered
97 formula III 600
Joined
81 Posts
Discussion Starter · #94 · (Edited)
I think you misread my answer.
But yes , not a problem.

How do you number the cylinders.?
I always considered #1 was on the magneto side.
 

Registered
97 formula III 600
Joined
81 Posts
Discussion Starter · #95 · (Edited)
Well ,,,,,, there it is at TDC.
I think I found the problem !!!
I'm Amazed it ran at all.

Now, where do I go from here??
Number on flywheel
D32000-7902

Automotive tire Motor vehicle Automotive wheel system Rim Auto part
 

Registered
Joined
2,551 Posts
To check the ignition timing follow the procedure outlined in section 05 - sub section 03 -1
You will need a dial indicator which fits into the spark plug hole to find true TDC then follow the instructions to check the timing marks at .086" before TDC.which is the spec. on page 09- 02- 1
You may not be that far off if the timing is checked correctly.
BTW, my page references are from the 1997 shop manual 484 0647 02 Formula 111 / 111 LT - Mach 1 / Z / ZLT
 

Registered
97 formula III 600
Joined
81 Posts
Discussion Starter · #97 · (Edited)
To check the ignition timing follow the procedure outlined in section 05 - sub section 03 -1
You will need a dial indicator which fits into the spark plug hole to find true TDC then follow the instructions to check the timing marks at .086" before TDC.which is the spec. on page 09- 02- 1
You may not be that far off if the timing is checked correctly.
BTW, my page references are from the 1997 shop manual 484 0647 02 Formula 111 / 111 LT - Mach 1 / Z / ZLT
I don't have said dial indicator and certainly not buying one.
That is set very close to, if not dead on at TDC as you see it .
Dial indicator wouldn't change the position by much if any.
I have the shop manual provided by David but this is so far out, there isn't much point in worrying about that much accuracy yet.

Here it is at the leading edge of TDC . Piston stops moving at this point.
Motor vehicle Automotive exterior Hood Auto part Close-up
 

Registered
Joined
2,551 Posts
Maybe I can help you with a poor man's dial indicator.
Use a pencil with an eraser on the end. Place the pencil in the # 1 cylinder eraser down. Roll the crank back and forth with the piston near TDC until you find TDC. Mark the pencil where it lines up with the top edge of the spark plug hole. Now rotate the crankshaft counter clockwise until the timing marks line up where they should. Mark the pencil again where it lines up with the top of the spark plug hole.
Remove the pencil and measure the distance in 1000ths. The measurement should be close to the .086" specified in the manual. If the measurement is way off you will need someone to do a more accurate check before you go any further in your diagnosis.
 
  • Like
Reactions: David H

Registered
97 formula III 600
Joined
81 Posts
Discussion Starter · #99 · (Edited)
Afterthoughts::
This is perfectly timed to run counter clockwise.!
Is/was there any MARINE or ATVs that run Backyards ???
Just thinking way outside the box here,,, Sorry.
 

Registered
Joined
2,551 Posts
Afterthoughts::
This is perfectly timed to run counter clockwise.!
Is/was there any MARINE or ATVs that run Backyards ???
Just thinking way outside the box here,,, Sorry.
Don't fall off that box. LOL
I have rebuilt countless reverse rotation marine engines. mainly Chevrolet based 350 and 454's or larger. I haven't run across any BRP triple reverse rotation engines though.
If you hold the recoil onto the engine and pull the cord which way does the engine turn?
I believe if you follow my instructions for checking the timing you will find out you will be OK or very close to it..
 
81 - 100 of 178 Posts
Top