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I believe one has to step back, passion clouds ones vision. become self aware, question what drives our feelings. We are always being played by special interests. I guess the question for us as individuals is do you want to play, does the special interest meet your needs, want or desires. Do you want to drive an EV
The crazy part is we perceive our beliefs to stem from our own conscious choices, yet we barely have any control over them.

Below is a dress that we cannot choose what color we see. There will be a split between people on this forum who see the dress in black&blue or gold&white. It's not a 50/50 split, but remarkably close, perhaps 53/47. I only had the chance to look into three people including myself, and I was the only one who saw gold&white.

I added the picture as a thumbnail, so it needs to be clicked to make it larger.

One-piece garment Shoulder Dress Human body Day dress



Below is the Checker-shadow illusion. This one is completely different in the way that it affects everyone the same way.


Product Rectangle Table Font Circle
 

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The crazy part is we perceive our beliefs to stem from our own conscious choices, yet we barely have any control over them.
Daag44, I think this statement is fundamentally true. Consciousness is a deep subject and very challenging to discuss in a single plane environment like an internet forum. Each of us is unique in how we perceive the the world around us, I always say - " what we see depends on where we stand ". This is both true metaphorically and structurally.

by the way.... I see the dress as gold and white
 

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Gold and white, asked my kids and they all said the same. Whats the deal on the checker one? Never mind, I looked it up. No need to get way off track into this to explain. Weird though.


Views are like the old glass half full or empty. Its hard on ones self being the glass half empty guy and seeing the negative all the time. Hard to change though.
 

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This one is so far off the tracks (shocker) it might not be saveable.

Prove me wrong - please!

On the subject, keep in mind the recommended window EV operation is don't go below 20% charge and try not to go above 80%.

So the math says if you have an advertised range of 200 miles the reality is it's more like 120 miles.

Now add to that the age degrading battery and in a few years you'll be down to a realistic 75-80 miles.

Not hyperboling, just stating some inconvenient facts.
 

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This one is so far off the tracks (shocker) it might not be saveable.

Prove me wrong - please!

On the subject, keep in mind the recommended window EV operation is don't go below 20% charge and try not to go above 80%.

So the math says if you have an advertised range of 200 miles the reality is it's more like 120 miles.

Now add to that the age degrading battery and in a few years you'll be down to a realistic 75-80 miles.

Not hyperboling, just stating some inconvenient facts.
Exactly. Then they say ideally only charge your battery enough for your expected use the next day. How many of us know exactly how many miles or where you may need to go unexpectedly. This all boils down to what we have been saying from the start and on previous threads: good commuter car etc. for some but the technology, both of the cars and the infrastructure are just not ready for a complete take-over. Its just a pipe dream.

If it was affordable, I would try one for my wife who has a 12 minute commute every day. But I could not see us with 2 or 3 EVs in the yard to replace our current 3 ICE vehicles.

As I also said earlier on, these require a certain amount of planning to operate as far as where when and how you charge etc.( as per manufacturer to optimize battery life) Something I just don’t think everyone is up to. There are plenty of drivers that are not able to keep their oil checked, tire pressures, schedule oil changes etc. pretty much only put gas in and thats it, so asking them to figure out a charging schedule may be asking too much.
 

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I'm thinking the on-board computer would handle battery management. all my electric tool batteries and other small batteries are managed by the charger or on-battery management systems. I just plug in.... and come back to a balanced, charged battery
 

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This one is so far off the tracks (shocker) it might not be saveable.

Prove me wrong - please!

On the subject, keep in mind the recommended window EV operation is don't go below 20% charge and try not to go above 80%.

So the math says if you have an advertised range of 200 miles the reality is it's more like 120 miles.

Now add to that the age degrading battery and in a few years you'll be down to a realistic 75-80 miles.

Not hyperboling, just stating some inconvenient facts.
Then factor in the -20/-30 were getting here in qc.....Peeps running with close to no heating just to get along.....Like NY QC is a woke nation with no vision of the future.....

 

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^^^ I'm still waiting to see the unbiased, independent study showing how going to electric is going to save the planet.

Burning gas to move things works well.

Now you burn something to turn it into something else that now has to be transmitted by an inefficient method and stored inefficiently before its finally used makes no sense.

I go all the way back to my 1991 Ford Escort LX-E. That had a partial zero emission engine in it. One of the car magazines did a test on it. Back then it produced fewer greenhouse gases per mile than a fully electric car charged off the California grid.

Then again this has never been about the environment or making sense, its about making money. The scam continues.
 

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Now you burn something to turn it into something else that now has to be transmitted by an inefficient method and stored inefficiently before its finally used makes no sense
I like the way you write that. The laws of physics cannot be broken - to move a chunk of metal from one place to another requires a certain amount of energy, how to obtain that energy is always debatable, but it's still required one way or another.

I just don't like the fact that people cannot agree that what works for one group of people may not work for another. I was taught in school to be my own person, now we're all told what we are supposed to like and what we are allowed to buy/use, individuality is being taken away from us on a constant basis.
 

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^^^ I'm still waiting to see the unbiased, independent study showing how going to electric is going to save the planet.
this you will not see, electric vehicles are only part of the solution. and most of us will be long dead before these issues get resolved. something needs to be done, if for nothing else so that we have clean air to breath.

wait until you have to totally give up 2 smoke motors. worst polluting gas motor on the planet.
 

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I was taught in school to be my own person,
at some point we have to consider the plight of others, individualism only gets us so far, then we start bumping into others. EVs are only the beginning. as we continue to over populate the planet those living will see further constraints. be happy we are only at this stage of the environmental discussion.
 

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I don't know about the environmental aspect of E vehicles or really care for that matter, but buddy just got a Rivian, we towed a 4,000 lbs boat to the landing, he semi stomped on it leaving my driveway, and not sure about anything else... but if i could have that acceleration in my daily... sign me up. I'll keep the gasser around for long hauls, but holy smokes that acceleration was something else.
Another buddy just took delivery of a Lightning, i'll have to try and get a ride in that in the next few weeks.
 

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Now you burn something to turn it into something else that now has to be transmitted by an inefficient method and stored inefficiently before its finally used makes no sense.
^^^ I'm still waiting to see the unbiased, independent study showing how going to electric is going to save the planet.

Burning gas to move things works well.

Now you burn something to turn it into something else that now has to be transmitted by an inefficient method and stored inefficiently before its finally used makes no sense.

I go all the way back to my 1991 Ford Escort LX-E. That had a partial zero emission engine in it. One of the car magazines did a test on it. Back then it produced fewer greenhouse gases per mile than a fully electric car charged off the California grid.

Then again this has never been about the environment or making sense, its about making money. The scam continues.
"^^^ I'm still waiting to see the unbiased, independent study showing how going to electric is going to save the planet."

Please define an "unbiased, independent study". I don't believe there is such a thing. Someone has to pay for it and someone has to perform the study. Someone is going to complain that it's biased regardless of the results, especially in today's age of misinformation and slandering.

"Now you burn something to turn it into something else that now has to be transmitted by an inefficient method and stored inefficiently before its finally used makes no sense."

I think you're completely ignoring all the inefficiencies of making gasoline available at your local gas pump. Energy is used to get the oil out of the ground, transport it to a refinery, refine it into something usable, transport it again. It's certainly not a model of efficiency. It's just status quo. The oil industry is as big as scam as anything else and lines the pockets of some of the worst people/countries in the world. Pick the scam you like the least. If a person is appalled about the business of going electric, can you really just turn a blind eye to what the oil industry really is?

Back to the performance of the Lightening, I don't think it can be characterized as anything but a disappointment. The performance numbers would be acceptable for a medium size passenger car used to run errands around town. A truck by nature needs to have a much wider range of capability. I believe very few trucks are used to simply run around town (though I have nothing to support that). The cost alone is prohibitive and now throw in that the range sucks under a lot of circumstance a truck would be used for. No way I would even consider one.

Something that hasn't been proposed and I'm surprised the industry hasn't considered is universal, changeable batteries. Instead of waiting for the battery in your car to charge, wouldn't it be more practical to simply exchange the dead batteries for charged ones and be back on your way. I'm sure it's not without significant challenges but it would address a lot of the concerns about EV's.
 

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"^^^ I'm still waiting to see the unbiased, independent study showing how going to electric is going to save the planet."

Please define an "unbiased, independent study". I don't believe there is such a thing. Someone has to pay for it and someone has to perform the study. Someone is going to complain that it's biased regardless of the results, especially in today's age of misinformation and slandering.

"Now you burn something to turn it into something else that now has to be transmitted by an inefficient method and stored inefficiently before its finally used makes no sense."

I think you're completely ignoring all the inefficiencies of making gasoline available at your local gas pump. Energy is used to get the oil out of the ground, transport it to a refinery, refine it into something usable, transport it again. It's certainly not a model of efficiency. It's just status quo. The oil industry is as big as scam as anything else and lines the pockets of some of the worst people/countries in the world. Pick the scam you like the least. If a person is appalled about the business of going electric, can you really just turn a blind eye to what the oil industry really is?

Back to the performance of the Lightening, I don't think it can be characterized as anything but a disappointment. The performance numbers would be acceptable for a medium size passenger car used to run errands around town. A truck by nature needs to have a much wider range of capability. I believe very few trucks are used to simply run around town (though I have nothing to support that). The cost alone is prohibitive and now throw in that the range sucks under a lot of circumstance a truck would be used for. No way I would even consider one.

Something that hasn't been proposed and I'm surprised the industry hasn't considered is universal, changeable batteries. Instead of waiting for the battery in your car to charge, wouldn't it be more practical to simply exchange the dead batteries for charged ones and be back on your way. I'm sure it's not without significant challenges but it would address a lot of the concerns about EV's.
Steve,
Spot on on the gas to the pump, but that same system is also what feeds the power plants.

We're just trading one inefficiency for something even less efficient.

I also agree on the study, every one has an agenda - folliw the $$$ to see what answer comes up.

How about just some common sense. See the example of the 1991 Escort. If this is truly about greenhouse gases its already been proven, over 30 years ago, an ICE can be made to produce few greenhouse gases per mile than an electric car.
 

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I don't know about the environmental aspect of E vehicles or really care for that matter, but buddy just got a Rivian, we towed a 4,000 lbs boat to the landing, he semi stomped on it leaving my driveway, and not sure about anything else... but if i could have that acceleration in my daily... sign me up. I'll keep the gasser around for long hauls, but holy smokes that acceleration was something else.
Another buddy just took delivery of a Lightning, i'll have to try and get a ride in that in the next few weeks.
No doubt the performance is there, enough that I am 100% intrigued, but as a toy car/truck performance vehicle, not a replacement for a daily driver.
 

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What amazes me is how clueless some people are. There are quite a few people that believe the car completely recharges itself whenever you apply the brakes. Obviously never paid attention in HS physics where they explained that a perpetual motion machine is an impossibility.
 

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Energy is used to get the oil out of the ground, transport it to a refinery, refine it into something usable, transport it again. It's certainly not a model of efficiency. It's just status quo. The oil industry is as big as scam as anything else and lines the pockets of some of the worst people/countries in the world.
Add the inefficiency of a gasoline vehicle ranges from 11–27% and up to 37% for diesel. I think the Mazda Skyactiv-X gasoline engine is reaching 40+% which is needed for ICE that will remain with us for the foreseeable future. My hope is that in the next decade we will have learned how to capture most of the exhaust emissions.


Back to the performance of the Lightening, I don't think it can be characterized as anything but a disappointment. The performance numbers would be acceptable for a medium size passenger car used to run errands around town. A truck by nature needs to have a much wider range of capability. I believe very few trucks are used to simply run around town (though I have nothing to support that). The cost alone is prohibitive and now throw in that the range sucks under a lot of circumstance a truck would be used for. No way I would even consider one.
The Ford Lighting normally gets 2.2 to 2.3 fast highway miles per kWh, so around 230 to 240 miles from 100% to 20% SoC. With a camper shell and gear for a 1675 lb payload (0.8375 ton), it gets ~1.8 fast highway miles per kWh (~187 miles down to 20% SoC) which is due in large part due to the lack of aerodynamics. For battery degradation there is 10 years of data that shows apparent issues, and it will only get better.


Something that hasn't been proposed and I'm surprised the industry hasn't considered is universal, changeable batteries. Instead of waiting for the battery in your car to charge, wouldn't it be more practical to simply exchange the dead batteries for charged ones and be back on your way. I'm sure it's not without significant challenges but it would address a lot of the concerns about EV's.
The industry tried it, mostly in Israel, and it had its problems. It may still be a viable solution, but I quit following that tech several years ago when I realized the EV cars were reaching over 300 miles and fast charging was over 140 kWh. Assume a 160 kWh charge up to 80%, 20 min charge = ~48 kWh (160 X 0.3). At 2.2 to 2.3 miles per kWh on the Ford Lightening with an empty box, that 20 min charge gets another 105 to 110 miles (in summer) on a pickup! On a car, the same ~48 kWh can get a whopping 144 highway miles (48 kWh X 3) on a two year old Tesla 3 with 50,000 miles riding at -10C (14F)!

The best I get with a fuel efficient car in the summer is 18 km/L (42.3 mpg US) on an expressway @ 120 kph (75 mph), and 19 km/L (44.7 mpg US) on a highway at a lower speed of 90 kph (55 mph) even with stops. In comparison with www.fuelly.com, probably the best site ever for gasoline consumption, I get much better consumption than even the highest average, but I am considerably lower than the best consumers. In winter driving I am dropping from 18 km/L (42.3 mpg US) down to ~15 km/L (~35.3 mpg US). Keep in mind that I'm a moderate driver in summer, and considerably fast in winter with all 4 winter tires in great shape and studded. By the way, I was one of the early adopters of the Bridgestone Blizzak tires, but they were not studded nor stud-able. I learned my lesson after competing with a friend who had inferior tires but studded, and showed me her tail lights in a gentlemen/gentlewomen race lol

For the same 144 miles @ -10C (14F) on a 20 min charge, I would need ~15 L (~4 US gallons) of gas (144 miles / 35.3 mpg) so about $27-30 CND ($1.8 to $2 per L) considering the tax exemption from being close to the US border which saves me 8%.
 

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at some point we have to consider the plight of others, individualism only gets us so far, then we start bumping into others. EVs are only the beginning. as we continue to over populate the planet those living will see further constraints. be happy we are only at this stage of the environmental discussion.
Imagine in ten years or less we are going to be dealing with riding our old ICE in traffic jams and gridlocks. Assume one or more in four cars on a Montreal bridge is EV. I am considering that there will be far more EV on daily commutes than the total percentage of EV on the roads. So if I am the 1 in 4 on the bridge, even though I have a fuel economical car, how will I be perceived in 10 years from now?

In one of the last many EV threads, I recounted having been directly behind an Montreal commuter bus that was puffing its belligerent black diesel smoke towards my car. However bad the air in traffic was, this one was puffing an abnormal amount out its tail pipe. It was bad enough that it led me to cause a minor traffic hold-up until others seeked an easy way to gain a length or two by passing ahead of me. In the next 30-40 min of traffic I was seeing each of those cars, trucks or vans that found their way behind this bus would also climb their way out as soon as they could.

I expect that we will not have to wait long to see that kind of remark hitting the news on a regular basis, and for far less than what I just described that was at the crazy end of the scale with black smoke over my hood lol It reminds of the 2S oil threads with those who are at odds with OEM oils since they do not smell like strawberries or blueberries lol I have used strawberry scented 2S racing oil (iPone) and still hold a half gallon, so I figure that I can make fun of it. By the way I just checked and it still smells like strawberry. I mention this because it has my mind wonder to ten years in the future for those of us who will be using ICE in grid locks that may need to run an aromatic type of gasoline that will render the EV drivers in some sort of psychedelic dreamlike daze of strawberry fields forever.

Unless there is a major shortage in one or more of the basic elements for making EV batteries, I expect such 'agenda' type discussions to have moved to a whole other level where it belongs which is our use of AI. And I am not at all referring to the common fears of AI, but rather how we will begin to perceive its intelligence which is programmed from our own faults, but importantly without our differences that has been programmed for the past one quarter of megaannum. From where I have left off with those two pictures, I meant to continue with the paradigm that AI is lacking the faults that we hold as necessary for our survival. Once these ancient elocutionary processes are put into perspective to understand their necessity, then they can be perceived above the level of faults. In the same way that we have not self destructed yet, it appears to me in haste to believe that we are not capable of making course corrections.

The beauty of these EV discussions for me is seeing our differences. Even though I fervently disagree with some concepts being forwarded on DooTalk EV threads, in some abracadabrant way I consider the differences are necessary for our survival. In other words, it is not AI in itself that I am worried about, but rather how we begin to perceive it. As a tool, AI will become necessary to extend our minds. As a means to seek truth, an AI that is programmed to surpass our differences will likely spin us in the wrong direction for one reason. Only humans can seek truth, as truth is a figment of our own intellect.
 
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