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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey Guys..... just looking for some opinions and to see if anyone else has run into this issue.

My wife's '17 Enduro 900 has been running fine but it is doing something and I want to get ahead of it so it doesn't get worse on a trip. There have been two issues this season and I think I already fixed one them.

The first issue was that once in a while we would come to a stop at an intersection, etc. and the sled would just shut off. It would start right back up and run fine otherwise. No CEL or any other messages on the cluster.

At first I thought my wife was hitting the Kill Switch because she sometimes fumbles with the controls because of the muffs on the bars. After confirming it didn't seem to be the Kill Switch or Tether, I decided to replace the main relay since all the relays are know to act up.

It has been very cold riding this season so far (below 0 F many of the times we have been out) so the Relay was an easy assumption and an easy fix. I think the relay did fix that issue because we rode all last weekend and it never shut off once when we stopped at a crossing.

Now onto the second issues that I hoped the relay would also fix but did not.....

On very cold mornings when the sled would sit out all night in the trailer, every once in a while it would throw a CEL during warm-up. The funny thing is it would always seem to happen when it warmed up to ~140 F. Shut the sled off and the CEL clears and the sled runs great all day. It even idles just fine up to and through the CEL.

I was able to get it on BUDS and the fault says that a coil is shorted to the battery. The last time it happened it was the mag cylinder and the time before that it said the center and mag cylinders had the same issue.

I know the 900's have had some coil issues. Seems to me if the coil was the problem, it would be dropping a cylinder and running rough. But if you shut down and restart, no more CEL and the sled runs fine all day long.

When we got home from our last trip, I let the sled warm up to 160 F before driving it into the garage and it never threw the CEL.... but it was warmer temps than the past several times starting after sitting in very cold temps overnight.

I have not had a chance to pull the hood and check the connections but that is where I am going to start. I am leaning towards a connection / connector issue that happens at extreme cold and when things start to shrink and expand. At warmer temps there is less of the freeze / thaw stress and it doesn't seem to happen.

Assuming that I can't find an obvious connector issue.... loose connection, bent pin, broken pin, cracked connector, etc. do you think it is worth throwing in some new coils?

I don't want to waste money but at $50 a coil it might be cheap insurance. I always carry a spare coil as it is but since one time two coils threw the code, I am just wondering if I should replace them all and I can keep the old coils as spares for troubleshooting in the future since I have three 900 ACE's.

The rub too is that the sled still has three years warranty but between the $50 deductible, a decent winter and the likely hood my Dealer is backed up in service for a couple weeks, I just want to get this resolved myself.

Thoughts or similar experiences to share?
 

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The shutting off issue could also be the DESS post, my '15 had this issue. Once the post was replaced the problem went away

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The shutting off issue could also be the DESS post, my '15 had this issue. Once the post was replaced the problem went away

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Thanks!

If it happens again after replacing the main relay, I will give that a try next.
 

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A thought from a very non mechanical person. Have owned two 900's for a total of 21,000 miles and never had a coil or relay issue.

Is there any chance putting the sleds in and out of a heated garage,,,cold, hot, cold, could be causing condensation in the coils and relays.

My sled all winter is in the back of my truck or outside a motel room.

mike
 
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Don't think so. When I bring them home they are in the heated garage for a week and completely dried out. When we are out riding they stay in trailer the entire time at whatever the outside temp happens to be.

The relays can get more moisture in them over time. Wouldn't think the coils would.

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A thought from a very non mechanical person. Have owned two 900's for a total of 21,000 miles and never had a coil or relay issue.
Is there any chance putting the sleds in and out of a heated garage,,,cold, hot, cold, could be causing condensation in the coils and relays.
My sled all winter is in the back of my truck or outside a motel room.
mike
Mike,
I have two 900s in Jackman Me. My Camp neighbor has 3. His stay outside all winter with covers, mine I keep in my trailer. Both of mine including my 2018 have had starting issues with the relay. His, not one in 4 years. Condensation develops parking a hot sled in a cold trailer, freezes, then when I warm my sled up and turn it off they have issues starting because of the thawed moisture. I'm convinced that the trailer is the cause.
 

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There has to be something to this that just a few have issues and most never have any.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
There has to be something to this that just a few have issues and most never have any.
Think back to the REV's........ same kind of deal. Some guys never reported any relay issues and others did.

I had two REV's.... one never had a relay issue... the other one started to have the gauges go crazy every time I hit the high beam button. Went to NAPA, got a new relay and replaced it and that fixed the issue.

The relays used on a sled are the same used on a car / truck. They are supposed to be sealed but in realty the quality is not perfect from production run to production run... especially when you consider where they are all manufactured.

Sleds deal with a lot more vibration than cars and trucks and I would argue they even deal with more moisture issues. Most relays in vehicles are typically mounted up high when they are under the hood and are even inside enclosures. They can be exposed to some moisture over time but I don't think nearly as much as a sled. Eventually some moisture will get into the relay and trapped inside. You will get some corrosion and even the cold temperatures wreak havoc freezing any moisture inside.

I have a 2002 Lexus that has been garage kept in Florida its entire life and only has 40,000 miles on it and it is in excellent condition. Couple months ago the AC compressor started randomly cutting out. After troubleshooting I determined it to be a $15 relay. Went to Autozone and got a new relay and the AC has been fine since.

It happens!
 

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2017 Ski doo Renegade 900...2022 Polaris Indy 137 XC 650
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During the winter my sleds are outside under a cover or inside a cold garage... Knock on wood no electrical problems...
 

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I have had problem 1, happened 2 times in 3 years. I thought it might be marginal gas. Maybe the station still had a fair amount of summer blended non-ethanol in winter. I recall that both times were early in the season.

As far as problem 2. The shop manual states that the coil is damaged. Obviously it is a transient error since the engine performs ok and the CEL light goes out.

But based on what the shop manual says about these codes (one for each cylinder P0358, P0359, P0360), the wiring to the coil somehow got battery voltage on it. They are saying that this may have damaged the coil.

The more I see these kinds of electrical gremlins the more I am convinced that I need to add more grounding. When current needs a place to go it looks for ground. If it cannot find ground it takes the next closest thing, wiring though components that can't handle the current.

One of the members here started a thread about adding redundant grounding. It really would not be that hard. You can buy the materials at the hardware store.

It can't hurt. Battery to chassis and chassis to engine. I would also look for where the ECM is grounded to the chassis. That connection has to be bulletproof.
 

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I have had problem 1, happened 2 times in 3 years. I thought it might be marginal gas. Maybe the station still had a fair amount of summer blended non-ethanol in winter. I recall that both times were early in the season.

As far as problem 2. The shop manual states that the coil is damaged. Obviously it is a transient error since the engine performs ok and the CEL light goes out.

But based on what the shop manual says about these codes (one for each cylinder P0358, P0359, P0360), the wiring to the coil somehow got battery voltage on it. They are saying that this may have damaged the coil.

The more I see these kinds of electrical gremlins the more I am convinced that I need to add more grounding. When current needs a place to go it looks for ground. If it cannot find ground it takes the next closest thing, wiring though components that can't handle the current.

One of the members here started a thread about adding redundant grounding. It really would not be that hard. You can buy the materials at the hardware store.

It can't hurt. Battery to chassis and chassis to engine. I would also look for where the ECM is grounded to the chassis. That connection has to be bulletproof.
Thanks MinnDave! Good stuff!

I have the Shop Manuals but have been too busy to start digging into them.

That being said.... I am glad I ordered 3 new coils before your post! I get 20% off so I decided to replace all three for the heck of it.

I had a Rev that had grounding issues. When you think about what what we put these machines thru, the redundant grounding makes a lot of sense. And like you said, it's easy to do!

Thanks Dave!

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Here's my post over in Tic's "Stutter" thread in the 1200 forum.

My fix ties the batt neg direct to engine and Tic copied that and went one further and continued the jump to frame as well.

My goal was to have a ground in a place that I can clean up and maintain easier. That one across the engine mount is nearly impossible to get to and clean up properly.

I redid my ground wire this year too (no start).

I went from batt neg directly to a stator cover bolt so that I'd have a direct run to the motor and eliminate that problem of the chassis to engine jumper loosing conductivity (that one across the front right motor mount)

http://www.dootalk.com/forums/topic/1457426-ground-wire-fix/?fromsearch=1
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Here's my post over in Tic's "Stutter" thread in the 1200 forum.

My fix ties the batt neg direct to engine and Tic copied that and went one further and continued the jump to frame as well.

My goal was to have a ground in a place that I can clean up and maintain easier. That one across the engine mount is nearly impossible to get to and clean up properly.
Thanks 89MX!
 

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Based on MinnDaves's advice, I decided to add some additional grounding. When I looked at the factory ground on our Enduro's, I was surprised how crappy it really is. There is only one ground strap going from the battery to the foot-rest and that is to a metal plate over top of the foot-rest that is painted.

You can see there is a star washer but it really should have been on the other side of the foot-rest. This side has bare metal but the head of the bold on the other end is right up against the painted surface. A start washer on the other side would at least allow it to scratch through the paint to the bare metal for a better ground.

b225bdea0b2172dad027c2e9360e9173.jpg


Then there is a second strap at the motor mount that is relying on the ground being solid through the entire chassis.

685c69774c0e719ef0946c498b6e6bb7.jpg


I purchased a 2-foot battery cable and ran it from where the battery ground attaches at the foot rest....

f9df22d79bd24b94b83073e1f9c1d260.jpg


.... over to the motor mount so there is more of a direct path of the grounding to the engine.

e34ed6eb22ae79a1419548cdb10b40d6.jpg


I then tie wrapped it to another harness behind the muffler.

I checked the coils and they are the latest part number. I did order some new coils but I think MinnDave is onto something. Given the CEL is intermittent when extremely cold and the code says it is a voltage to ground issue at the coil and the sled runs fine otherwise and the CEL clears when stopped and restarted, I think it could very well be a ground related issue.

I'll see if this additional ground solves the problem. I also wonder if poor grounding could be wreaking havoc with relays as well i.e. more contact arcing and burning, etc. leading to premature failure? I'm going to add an additional ground to my other Enduro as well after seeing how the factory ground was done.

Thanks to MinnDave for the tip!!!
 

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Nice work Judge.

The credit really needs to go to 89MX. It was his thread where I saw it first applied and I just passed it on.

One other thing that I would do is to use some of that liquid vinyl brush-on "tape" over the terminals and crimps. Especially if you trailer sleds uncovered or ride where road salt can spray around.

I have found several times where corrosion in those crimp-on terminals makes it look like a great connection but when you ohm test it, it is an open circuit. I have even seen where it ohm tests ok but when some current tries to pass it goes open circuit. Very tricky and very frustrating.
 

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Had the same problem with my 2018 1200 renegade x. 5 mornings in a row it would start run for about 4 or 5 minutes throw a CEL and go onto 2 cylinders. Shut it off and restart and was fine. Brought to the dealer and he got the same code on buds. We cut all the ties holding the coil wires as they put stress on the wires, disconnected all coil connections and checked pins and reconnected. Found the actual battery cables were a bit loose on the battery, could move them both with my fingers, tightened them and let sled sit for two days and it hasent done it since. Don't know for sure if we got it but its been 600 miles since and the issue has not happened again.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Nice work Judge.

The credit really needs to go to 89MX. It was his thread where I saw it first applied and I just passed it on.

One other thing that I would do is to use some of that liquid vinyl brush-on "tape" over the terminals and crimps. Especially if you trailer sleds uncovered or ride where road salt can spray around.

I have found several times where corrosion in those crimp-on terminals makes it look like a great connection but when you ohm test it, it is an open circuit. I have even seen where it ohm tests ok but when some current tries to pass it goes open circuit. Very tricky and very frustrating.
Thanks Dave and 89MX!

I trailer in an enclosed trailer and store in a heated garage. When I took off the hood of both sleds, things were nice and clean so I don't think I have to worry too much but I think the liquid tape is a good idea. I have a bottle in the shop so that is an easy thing to do just to be safe.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Had the same problem with my 2018 1200 renegade x. 5 mornings in a row it would start run for about 4 or 5 minutes throw a CEL and go onto 2 cylinders. Shut it off and restart and was fine. Brought to the dealer and he got the same code on buds. We cut all the ties holding the coil wires as they put stress on the wires, disconnected all coil connections and checked pins and reconnected. Found the actual battery cables were a bit loose on the battery, could move them both with my fingers, tightened them and let sled sit for two days and it hasent done it since. Don't know for sure if we got it but its been 600 miles since and the issue has not happened again.
That kind of stuff does drive you crazy trying to chase down!

I really think the Doo grounding could be so much better for not much additional cost or work to implement. The main ground they have now just doesn't cut it. At the very least it should run to the engine and be connected to a non-painted area.

Hopefully the new ground I installed does the trick. I am going to add it to the other two sleds I have as well.
 

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Looking good Judge!

A lot of talk over the forums on issues like this lately.

One other good tip I saw was from sleddingfarmer who tightened up the relay receiving clips in the elect box.

Those relays can get a little loose in there and intermittently loose connection.

To solve that, I gave each leg of the relay a VERY small twist so that it would stay tight and retain contact at all times.

Easy to do... just a thought.
 
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