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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Blew a belt in 200 miles on a 130hp class machine.
I'm at a loss on how poorly my clutching is performing durability wise.

I know something is not right because my 2010 1200X would easily get 3000 miles out of a belt, I broke two defective XTX belts at 1200 and 1400 miles receptively and even have an XTX with 4000 miles of medium to aggressive driving But that was it. I changed belts every season regardless of miles but except for this year its usually 3000 miles.

My dealer is good but for stuff like this I'm usually on my own.

And we've had a season here where I haven't had any snow locally to do any testing.
I don't like to do testing on trailer-up trips, never works out as planned.

The season is all but over here so I'm going to be waiting until next year to do anything.

Here is my summary for this season's belts
Swapped out the primary for a PB80 while it was new. Was never going to work for me with the Edrive because of the inability to change the weight. also my old PB80 far outlasted any TRA or Edrive. Only change to stock 2016 1200X so far.

Belt 1 - 715 miles CHANGED OUT (Plus 100 miles on later was then swaped out in TSB) as it was visibly used quite a bit. It was way down in the secondary, deflection adjuster had not been moved. Noticed a faire bit of heat out of the clutching for most of those miles without pushing much as I was breakin' her in. Mostly off trail riding. BRP 383 Belt

Belt 2 - 700 miles THREW ALL OUTER COGS all at once, stopped on the side of the trail and swapped her out. Mostly average driving with aggressive driving near it's demise. Heat still very noticeable from the clutching. BRP 383 Belt

Now I know something is not right, can't be two belts in a season, specially this early in. Whip out the straight edge and the caliper. Way off on the alignment. Well way off in my mind but BRP's spec is so Broad it barely passes. Anyway orders the spacers to set it right.

Belt 3 - 500 miles THREW ALL OUTER AND HALF THE INNER COGS 10 miles into our day trip. The day before I had finaly got a chance to get the TSB swapped spring and had put my old 383 belt on as I had my doubt they would keep the belt to "send it away". I also got them to put in the spacers to align my cluches. I then went on to reinstall my belt 3, which in hindsight was a mistake. I should have know the belt was broken in at the old alignment and wouldn't hit the sheaves the same way and would heat up. Anyways Belt blew 10 miles in with somewhat aggressive driving. Gates Carbon Cord Belt

Didn't have a spare any more and didn't trust the belt to get me home. So I was driving conservatively while my buddy was having a great time on a nice wide long trail. Fun way to ride. First stop we made had some overpriced 383s for emergencies so I got one.

Belt 4 - 190 miles OBLITORATED chunks and fibers, thats all that was left. I could feel the heat coming off the clutches through the cab all day. I was driving aggressively for maybe half those miles probably less. Only once I had a spare again did the machine go into sport mode and my throttle go past 80%. All trail riding. And of course my buddy on the Cat 1100 Turbo reminding me how much grief I gave him over the past 4 seasons for everyone of his cats came back to bit me in the ass. Gates Carbon Cord Belt

Now for what I think is the problem. And how I plan to fix it next year. Sorry I know some of this has been covered but I'll cover it again

I'm going to start of next year by either buying or building a belt temp sensor. We've tried the Razorback this year but they are junk, good for a few miles then they die. I want to know what the changes I'm making are doing in real time. Not stopping with a heat gun after I think I've done some similar driving. I'm going to document as much as I can.

Firstly Alignment, even with the 3mm I added I feel I'm still off.I was only at 35.4 mm before the spacers.
I'm pretty sure I'm going to float it next year, It's a lot of money but I've never had any heat issues with my floating setups.
I still have my Team tied clutch I might just slap that on until I figure out the clutching.

Next Clutching, I like the new spring. Didn't gain any RPM in my case using the Carbon Cord belts with the new spring, however performance seems to have increased. I would need to test this more next year. But even with that performance increase I feel the clutching is lacking. I will be trying a few different setups

The Belt Selection, I lost complete faith in the Gates belts everyone loves so much this season. Lost faith in XTX the past two seasons. I'm going back to good old BRP next season. Might cost more but I get better performance out of 383s 391s or even 377s than anything else.

The Ventilation, Now this one I hate for a few reasons. Firstly I fell for BRP's BS about the new design, how in the hell would it even make sense that the new cover makes the clutches cooler. I tried to find the video explanation again of how it works just to confirm the stupidity they where trying to sell. I love the new cover for the belt storage and tools, but it totally blocks off the clutch compartment from any fresh air. The only air it can get is either from my heated exhaust pipe or the footwell I'm blocking off with my boot. And it never made any sense to me to grab fresh air from behind the area you want ventilated, specially on a machine that is never under 30 miles an hour. Maybe it could work in the mountains but the flatlanders are at a disadvantage.

Now let it be known that I HATE having to drill, cut or mangle my new sled in any way. Probably because we do skip open water from time to time. And my #1 fear when I'm going over water is getting some splashed on the clutchs and having her sink because of it.
So now I'm going to add holes for air (and water :s) to go in. and some other holes to let the hot air go out. I'll be looking for parts over the summer to make it look as stock as possible.

Am I alone in this? Is no one else having any belt issues? I know I drive hard but I can't be the only one as my dealer puts it.
I'm going to ask the questions on the 2stroke side as well. No way they get the belts to hold at 150 HP with that same guard.
 
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life is short, live long
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If i blow belts like that, my sled will get traded.....

Looking forward to what happens next season.
 
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All I can do is speculate.

1. Alignment still off. Presumably you're now at 38.4 but you don't say that. Have you measured it? Engine mounts all good? Anything shifting? I personally like approx 39 as a target. If 3mm of shims doesn't get it far enough, slot the engine mounts. Alternately floating is an expensive alternative but effective.

2. Imbalance in your clutching. Either the primary or the secondary are slipping the belt constantly because they're mismatched. And if you get a belt hot ONE time, you can't see it but it is ruined. And sooner rather than later it will fail. I will suspect something about your setup is overheating your belt very quickly and weakening it internally. And you're just repeating the cycle. Being at 38.4 won't do that, if that's where it's actually at. I have no idea what springs or setup you have in the PB80, and I'm unfamiliar with the 2016's secondary setup, but my most educated guess is that they don't match properly. What spring is in them both, and what's your secondary preload set at?

3. There is a bulletin out on the 2016's for a new secondary spring and a new belt. It's been discussed here recently. So Doo is aware of some sort of issue on the 2016's. (EDIT just noticed you had the update done already..sorry.)

4. The clutch cooling cover is not designed to work with the smooth bodied PB80 which moves no air. It's designed for the Edrive which pumps air. Many PB80 users remove or modify this cover accordingly.

5. I'm a strong believer in wrapping exhaust pipe in header wrap. Even OEM exhaust pipe. Keeps all that radiant exhaust heat from reaching the clutches, and is reversible -- no drilling. Really helps keep underhood temps down.

I have 9,000 miles on my 2010. Tons of WOT long pulls, very aggressive high speed trail riding. Never blown a belt. Have run 383, XTX, and Gates Carbon. My favorite of the 3 is the Gates Carbon.

Sorry you're having difficulties and hopefully you can find the reason for them.
 

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The only 1200's that I see blowing belts are out of alignment. I was out Saturday in 60 degree heat doing 1 mile long wfo runs on the lake and the carbon belt was hot but no issues. Mine is close with the 3mm shims but should be shimmed at least 1mm more to be spot on but all I had was the c&t kit when I had it apart. I'm going to look at doing something for more ventilation but I feel the same as you do about hacking holes in a new sled.
Get the beige secondary spring in it also. I had black marks in the secondary with the stock spring from slippage and the beige cured that. I'm using an old formula spring from the 90's so it will last forever.

I'm spinning mine to 8700. 180-290 cvt Spring, 8.5 discs, 44-40 helix beige @20# or so.
 

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Get the beige secondary spring in it also. I had black marks in the secondary with the stock spring from slippage and the beige cured that. I'm using an old formula spring from the 90's so it will last forever.
That's what I thought until my old beige spring from early 2000's broke on day 2 of 5 day Quebec trip this season! Funny thing is the broken beige ran about as well as the original sacked out secondary spring before it was pulled.
 

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Pretty much the same going on here. Blew 3 belts this season 2900 miles. No open water but definitely aggressive and extra weight of passenger is where I figured my issue was. Clutch is so hot I can't keep my feet in the footwell unless it's really cold. Even riding aggressively I have to move my feet out. I wear sorrel boots which are warm but I was putting gear away the other day and noticed cracking on the rubber of my boot now clutch side inside area of foot. Pretty sure this heat is the culprit. Overall happy with the machine but last sled was an 800 and chewed belts as well.
 

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I agree with Craze about a possible loose or broken motor mount, taking the clutches out of alignment under load.
 

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Put 4500km on my 391 BRP belt this year with no issues. Pb80 and Cudney helix and spring in it also from day one. First ride the belt was so hot I could not leave my hand on it and I was greatly concerned. I then vented and cut out some of the belt guard and belt temps dropped considerably. Outside of pb80 almost cold and could hold onto the belt for as long as I wanted. Vent that clutch guard and remove the pc of plastic on top of the guard where the old tool box use to go to let the air flow through better. Made a world of difference. On a side note, never had any luck with aftermarket belts but oem always lasted the season. The 391 worked flawlessly and can take more heat that the 383(I don't have that issue now but did at start of season) I will buy a new 391 for the next season. :smile_old: My alignment is at 37.5 mm
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
If i blow belts like that, my sled will get traded.....

Looking forward to what happens next season.
I see in your signature you have an XS 1200, did you just get it ? Or did you run it and not have any problems with the belts

All I can do is speculate.

1. Alignment still off. Presumably you're now at 38.4 but you don't say that. Have you measured it? Engine mounts all good? Anything shifting? I personally like approx 39 as a target. If 3mm of shims doesn't get it far enough, slot the engine mounts. Alternately floating is an expensive alternative but effective. I should be close to 38.4 however I have not checked yet. Mounts are visibly good. however I will double check with a bar as soon as I get a chance. I have positive twist in my alignment as per alignment instructions and under load everything should line up. Might be a tad better with another 1mm shim.

2. Imbalance in your clutching. Either the primary or the secondary are slipping the belt constantly because they're mismatched. And if you get a belt hot ONE time, you can't see it but it is ruined. And sooner rather than later it will fail. I will suspect something about your setup is overheating your belt very quickly and weakening it internally. And you're just repeating the cycle. Being at 38.4 won't do that, if that's where it's actually at. I have no idea what springs or setup you have in the PB80, and I'm unfamiliar with the 2016's secondary setup, but my most educated guess is that they don't match properly. What spring is in them both, and what's your secondary preload set at? I didn't check the preload yet. Should have been indexed as per TSB so whatever preload they have in spec. I'll dig up spring specs and check preload and get back to you. I'm seeing no obvious marks on the primary or secondary to indicate slipping. Both clutchs seem to be the same temperature. But I would have to measure it somehow to be accurate.

3. There is a bulletin out on the 2016's for a new secondary spring and a new belt. It's been discussed here recently. So Doo is aware of some sort of issue on the 2016's. (EDIT just noticed you had the update done already..sorry.)

4. The clutch cooling cover is not designed to work with the smooth bodied PB80 which moves no air. It's designed for the Edrive which pumps air. Many PB80 users remove or modify this cover accordingly.

I still don't think the Edrive can pump that much air into there. And where does it get the air it's pumping in there from. According to BRP it's from my boot footwell. But I have a wide foot, and big boots blocking off that area.

5. I'm a strong believer in wrapping exhaust pipe in header wrap. Even OEM exhaust pipe. Keeps all that radiant exhaust heat from reaching the clutches, and is reversible -- no drilling. Really helps keep underhood temps down.

I'm somewhat afraid of this, As you keep more heat on welded assemblies. I'd afraid of making those welds more brittle than they need to be. But the way it's going I think I will try it next season

I have 9,000 miles on my 2010. Tons of WOT long pulls, very aggressive high speed trail riding. Never blown a belt. Have run 383, XTX, and Gates Carbon. My favorite of the 3 is the Gates Carbon.

I had Great luck on my 2010 with very similar setups. Like I said the two belts that blew I believe where defective., But I believe the 2010's alignment was better as well as ventilation

Sorry you're having difficulties and hopefully you can find the reason for them.

Don't be sorry, I could drive soft and have no issues. just a shame cause my XR took all that same beating grinning the whole day. My XS takes the beating then spits out belts. lol
Pretty much the same going on here. Blew 3 belts this season 2900 miles. No open water but definitely aggressive and extra weight of passenger is where I figured my issue was. Clutch is so hot I can't keep my feet in the footwell unless it's really cold. Even riding aggressively I have to move my feet out. I wear sorrel boots which are warm but I was putting gear away the other day and noticed cracking on the rubber of my boot now clutch side inside area of foot. Pretty sure this heat is the culprit. Overall happy with the machine but last sled was an 800 and chewed belts as well.
I don't have to move my feet out, guess I'm used to my old 660 Turbo cat. The exhaust side on those are killer. I'll believe rubber from boots can crack at those heats.

Yeah I'm pretty hefty geared up, so it's like having a passenger lol

I agree with Craze about a possible loose or broken motor mount, taking the clutches out of alignment under load.
I'll check them. Don't beleive they are broken, but loose is a possibility.

Put 4500km on my 391 BRP belt this year with no issues. Pb80 and Cudney helix and spring in it also from day one. First ride the belt was so hot I could not leave my hand on it and I was greatly concerned. I then vented and cut out some of the belt guard and belt temps dropped considerably. Outside of pb80 almost cold and could hold onto the belt for as long as I wanted. Vent that clutch guard and remove the pc of plastic on top of the guard where the old tool box use to go to let the air flow through better. Made a world of difference. On a side note, never had any luck with aftermarket belts but oem always lasted the season. The 391 worked flawlessly and can take more heat that the 383(I don't have that issue now but did at start of season) I will buy a new 391 for the next season. :smile_old: My alignment is at 37.5 mm
Yeah I hadn't cut my guard yet as I wanted to believe the BRP marketing on the new CVT covers. I'll be cutting mine similar to yours. Nice job.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
What are you running for pucks in the PB80? too much belt slip perhaps?
Had 10 stock, when to 11 as I thought that might be the issue. I had some black markings on the first 700 miles 3/4 of the way up on the PB.

Removed the 11th again before TSB spring change. No marks this time around except the dark black ones when the last belt flew apart.
 

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You mentioned your alignment was 35.4 before the 3 shim. So with your 38.4 now do you see a noticeable dog leg in the belt still.

Looking at the belts do you see different wear patterns on either side of the belt.

Did you check the clutch faces for any small burs or dings. I had a 600 once that had a ding in the secondary clutch face from factory that destroyed a belt in no time until I found it.

What type of track and lug height are you running..
 

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Im confused what you guys are doing. I can hold my clutches after hard runs, they are warm but not to the point where you cant hold on to them and i have zero venting to my clutch, i do have vents in front of it and behind it but nothing goes to the clutch, belt guard is stock and working like its designed to do
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
You mentioned your alignment was 35.4 before the 3 shim. So with your 38.4 now do you see a noticeable dog leg in the belt still.

Still at small dog leg. almost unnoticeable.

Looking at the belts do you see different wear patterns on either side of the belt.

Couldn't tell you both since alignment are lost

Did you check the clutch faces for any small burs or dings. I had a 600 once that had a ding in the secondary clutch face from factory that destroyed a belt in no time until I found it.

Not yet. but good point. I'll check when I clean them off.

What type of track and lug height are you running..

Ice Ripper XT 1.25", not my favorite track, but I'll run it till it goes bad.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Im confused what you guys are doing. I can hold my clutches after hard runs, they are warm but not to the point where you cant hold on to them and i have zero venting to my clutch, i do have vents in front of it and behind it but nothing goes to the clutch, belt guard is stock and working like its designed to do
No way I'm holding mine, ever... maybe cruising a 30 mph section of trail for an hour, but even then I'm not sure. I'll have a temp gauge next year. I hate this holding of the clutchs for temp readings.
 

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No way I'm holding mine, ever... maybe cruising a 30 mph section of trail for an hour, but even then I'm not sure. I'll have a temp gauge next year. I hate this holding of the clutchs for temp readings.
Deffinately slipping somewhere, im using the dreaded cudney secondary set up with the silver spring and cr9 helix, its working good for me, everything stays warm, not hot by any means, doesnt matter if i use a gates or 391. My offset used to be 35.8 then i shimmed it out 3mm and it helped a little but i ont got it on a ride on a warm day so id say it helped but how much im not 100% sure
 

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My primary (e-drive) is always cool, I can grab and hold it with bare hands at any time.. My secondary is always hot.. Too hot to keep a finger on it after a hard run. I'm going to try a little more tension on the torsion spring. I think my belt might be slipping a little and would explain why I can't get over 7700 rpm even with new springs.
 

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The belt guard was designed to work with the edrive, not the smooth pb80 which won't blow any air.

People have asked several times, what spring is in your pb80?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
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