What is "mid-range"?
Like the 700 that doesnt exist? 600r? 1200? 900ace?

 

Yes, those 100-130hp engines that are not the lowest power output offerings, but are clearly less than the 850, 850 turbo, and 900 turbo power plants.

 

The 900ace is 95hp and the 1200 was 135
100-130 would include the 600 carb,600etec and 600r., and 2 of those are out of production.
What would you suggest? A 600ace turbo should be a bit stronger than the 900ace,but it wouldn't be worth the cost hit. I'm not sure I see the point on a 700 that is only slightly stronger than the 600r
The only thing I might add to the lineup would be a cheap single for the kids to learn on.

 

For this project I was thinking of how a manufacturer like Ski-Doo might react to a competitor (Polaris) launching a new mid-range power output engine (650). I am keeping it simple as for my other products in the project, a 600cc 2 stroke engine. But I did consider a hybrid platform, a new 4 stroke similar to the 600 turbo idea, and even a full electric. I am not here to start rumors or fights, just some neat ideas for power plants in snowmobiles. As you mentioned, a cheap single would be a great addition as well. There is obviously a market, as Yamaha and Arctic Cat have co-developed that 400cc platform. I understand brand loyalty, and it must pain some people to make that move to keep the sled relevant for their growing riders.

 

With #4, did you mean to write 600cc and smaller?

1. What is the engine displacement of your current snowmobile you ride the most?

2. What is the primary reason you chose the engine on your current snowmobile?

3. Based on your experience during previous seasons, do you believe the current mid-range power output engine offered by Ski-Doo is competitive against other manufacturers?

4. If you mainly ride a snowmobile with an engine under 600cc or 800cc and larger, would a more powerful mid-level engine cause you to switch?

5. If a new mid-level engine released by Ski-Doo provided increased reliability over your current snowmobile, would you purchase the new model?

6. If a new mid-level engine released by Ski-Doo provided increased fuel and oil economy over your current snowmobile, would you purchase the new model?

7. If a new mid-level engine released by Ski-Doo provided increased ease of maintenance over your current snowmobile, would you purchase the new model?

 

Polaris 650 is estimated to be around 125-135 HP. 600R Etec is listed at 125 HP. The 650 is saying 15% more torque than their 600. Not sure how that compares.

I own a 600 etec and never really see an issue with power and absolutely love the fuel/oil economy when compared to the 800/850s.

I agree with others, a smaller, less expensive motor is needed. The 600 ACE is a fine motor, but cost more than the 600 ETEC. A 500cc or less is really needed. I think one of the better motors they made was the 462 in the early formulas. My brother and several friends worked at the local dealer and they said that motor was about as solid as you get, they rarely saw them in the shop for repairs.

But, that said, a 300 etec would be awesome for a starter sled engine. Bring back the Citation with modern suspension.

 

I am on board with TheBearAk, but not just a smaller engine, but a smaller sled as well to match it. Either a single or a twin but overall light weight and affordable. Something that can serve as a starter sled or serve as basic transportation for those not concerned about power and speed and just need something to serve the purpose. We have nothing to replace sleds like the Tundra 2s and Bravo Trappers etc, that were great for guys with trap lines and many other purposes. Modern suspension, but doesn't have to be fancy.

According to a quick look at an inflation calculator, I figure a starter sled should be able to sell for under $7000. Considering I bought a new 600 Sport in 2013 for $7200 Canadian, thats not unreasonable.

I think BRP has all the other ranges covered pretty well with the new 600 fuel injected and up the line, just missing a smaller platform light sled.

I will fill out your survey.

 

They have the best....900ACE and now the new 600 EFI....

 

detune the 850 to 145hp and viola.

Also the 600r supposedly dyno's around 134hp. Polaris 650 is in the 138hp range??

 

I should have also mention, in regards to the survey purpose. I think that Polaris developed the 650 specifically to compete with the 600 etec. While the HP and torque are close enough to compete, I do wonder about the fuel economy. People buying mid-range power are typically looking for a balance of power and economy. 600 etec gets between 17-19 MPG.

Can't find any real numbers other than percentages. Polaris is saying around 40% better fuel economy than the liberty. If I recall correctly, the liberty was a very typical around 7-8 MPG, which puts the new 650 at around 12 MPG.

 

detune the 850 to 145hp and viola.

Also the 600r supposedly dyno's around 134hp. Polaris 650 is in the 138hp range??

A 140/145/150 hp engine is the sweet spot, but needs to be much shorter stroke than the 850; for super quick response when flicking the throttle. A 600 crankcase with the old 800HO cylinders with modern fuel injection. If you have ever ridden someone's good running 770 you will know what I mean.

instant throttle response even with carbs due to the short stroke. The 600R is closer to 129 hp if you look at the Dynotech's numbers on a stock engine.

It is getting close to the right amount of power, it is just not quite there. You could even do it with 700 cylinders, but when the 800 cylinders are already designed and cast.. with the bigger ports it is just that much better. Low stress and low vibration horsepower with just enough and not too much. Put on their modern fuel injection.. could even be a bigger system like the current 600EFI. Would have to be Etec; but imagine any new addition would be ETEC for cleanliness of emissions.

 

I would differently ride a midrange engine in the 650R-700R etec range. Just for the same reason mentioned above.

Short stroke 600 motors as soooo much fun to ride off/on throttle...corner to corner. For some reason the 600cc sleds even feel lighter than the 800R etec or the 850 Etec. Vote me in LOL.

 

I just took the survey. Questions #4, #5, #6, and #7 assumes you are unhappy or dissatisfied with your current snowmobile of choice of snowmobiles. I have an 600 Enduro and a 850 Enduro both are great sleds none are lacking power and I am not sure a middle HP sled would make me change so I listed "unsure" for the last 4 questions. Fuel economy, durability, power are all good and lacking nothing in my opinion.

I think you need to have another choice other than "yes,no, unsure" How about "I like what I ride"...Unsure just leaves me looking for another choice...

 

With the 600R long stroke having gained so much in throttle response, I am not sure how a short stroke fits into it. I see nearly twenty years of DooTalk threads talking about wanting more torque which is what the 600R delivers as opposed to the previous 600RS based on the 600HO.

The most notable 2S performance upgrade in the past two decades has been strokers which don't even compare to the stroke of a 600HO or 600R. By the way, the 600HO and 600R are nearly identical. Add that the 600R is arguably the most responsive 2S 600 on the consumer market, I wonder what are the benefits of a shorter stroke?

 

Sorry for the confusion. "short stroke" meaning a 600cc motor with larger bore. 140-150 hp.

"short stroke" meaning shorter stroke than the 800E Etec or the 850 etec.

The 600HO etec and the 600R etec are such a smooth quick spooling motor. Just would be nice to have a little more hp and trq.

 

Sorry for the confusion. "short stroke" meaning a 600cc motor with larger bore. 140-150 hp.

"short stroke" meaning shorter stroke than the 800E Etec or the 850 etec.

The 600HO etec and the 600R etec are such a smooth quick spooling motor. Just would be nice to have a little more hp and trq.

Exactly. You know what I mean and feel. I am sure Daag has never ridden a good running 770 or 700HO.... The heck with the longer stroke..

These sled pull hard. Out pull and 800R... come out of a corner on a trail.. hit the throttle and you are gone while the 800R is thinking about going.. and getting those long rods moving.. the 700HO or 770 is long gone. And they would be so much better with fuel Injection. yep, 140 to 150 hp.. would be plenty if it was in a hurry.. good fuel economy and plenty of performance at lower elevations..

The sled feels so much lighter. they say the gyroscopic effect of the crankshaft with long rods doesn't make it feel heavy to you.. but a long stroke 800R/850 feel so much heavier than a 600efi 600R 700HO 770 sled..

 

I think the challenge (market analysis) for Ski Doo here would be "Are we going to gain market share from our competition (which we already dominate), and at what cost, or are we just going to share shift our internal sales numbers (sell slightly less 600R and 850 as some of those owners may move to the 700/770).

Personal opinion is it's share shift which will cost money as you are adding extra parts and labor hours to sell about the same number of total units.

Bottom line profits would most likely reduce unless you take market share or raise prices to compensate.

High risk/low reward.

 

Exactly. You know what I mean and feel. I am sure Daag has never ridden a good running 770 or 700HO.... The heck with the longer stroke..
These sled pull hard. Out pull and 800R... come out of a corner on a trail.. hit the throttle and you are gone while the 800R is thinking about going.. and getting those long rods moving.. the 700HO or 770 is long gone. And they would be so much better with fuel Injection. yep, 140 to 150 hp.. would be plenty if it was in a hurry.. good fuel economy and plenty of performance at lower elevations..

The sled feels so much lighter. they say the gyroscopic effect of the crankshaft with long rods doesn't make it feel heavy to you.. but a long stroke 800R/850 feel so much heavier than a 600efi 600R 700HO 770 sled..

I didn't ride the 770, but I have ridden and raced the 600/700/800 triple triples. I was never concerned with the fraction of a second gain or loss in spooling time of the crank/piston assembly. I had way too many other things to worry about with hooking-up and changes throughout the say that would greatly effect my 60 feet for example.

For the 140-150 Hp sweet spot, I too was once part of those who missed the 700s. I used to feel the 800 was too much for a flat land trail sled with the way I rode. I am not sure if it made sense that I would spend such much time tuning clutches for racing (amateur racing like you recently mentioned in the Haydays thread), and left stock clutching to trails. With how I work the problem today, it is simple to make clutching adjustments to fit my riding style. I don't think that I have mentioned my trail riding style, but it's real simple. I enjoy silky smooth power on and power off. When I smash the throttle at 30-40 mph, I expect it to boogie. The first part is easy with a primary spring change and deflection. The second part is what I had a little trouble with until last year (2019) when Dynamo^Joe spilled the beans. It reminded me of how Bill Cudney did the same for racing in the mid 2000s. Big John does it too, and they all leave their footprints with brilliant and practical CVT concepts. But one needs to know what to look for to realize the value when it is being shared on a public forum.

The reason that I mention clutching is that I believe this is most important for looking into the market share of engines having different power outputs. The 850 vs 600R thread is a perfect example. I think it is a good thread, but note how it divides the 600 and 850 which is much like I once divided the 600/700/800cc with stock clutching. If you look back to the near 20 years of DooTalk clutching threads, there has always been a divide between stock clutching and the need for clutch kits. I think it was last year in 2019 when BRP finally made a series of CVT videos with the take away that stock clutching is only meant for general purpose and in no way tailored for individual riding styles nor rider and backpack weight. It was the first OEM that took a public stance on the debate of promoting the adjustments to stock clutching or clutch kits that made a lot of sense.

I am reminded of Kanedog who modified his Summit XM 800R E-TEC with ultra low gearing, a Paragon 6-Pack secondary clutch and whatever adjustments to the TRA VII primary clutch to work for his climbs. He was so taken by the improvements that he attempted to challenged BRP to a better setup. From my perspective, if I were working for BRP and reading his challenge, I would simply think he did was he was supposed to, tailor the clutching and gearing for his style of riding. In other words BRP has no reason to challenge a happy owner who put the effort in his Ski-Doo to work like he wanted it to. Hence the CVT videos that BRP made. I find it similar to the CVT changes you shared for the early 600HO E-TECs with the engine remarkably detuned compared to the previous 600HO SDI. It is a moot point, but the difference is you didn't challenge BRP and I appreciate this level of acumen. From my perspective, I am learning from someone who is over 20 years my senior with multiple times more experience than I have. On the same token, you can expect me to learn from it and voice my take too.

The last thing I want to mention is the importance of the 800/850 class. While it has been apparent to riders out West in medium to high elevation, I don't believe it has been clear for us near sea level riders. At the minimum this is has been what I took away from being on DooTalk. From the time that I joined DooTalk, I figure that it took many years for me to understand why the 700cc class didn't really fit, or rather it wasn't necessary. It took a repeated theme on DooTalk for the power loss in elevation to help me grasp the importance of an 800cc and big bores was to elevation. It was so important that BRP brought us the 850 and then an 850 turbo. Who in their right mind would want a Summit RT when the money for an engine rebuild could be given towards a large down payment on a new 850 turbo?

My hope for a take away is that CVT/gearing adjustments are better suited to bridge the gap between the 600 and 800/850 than the engine cc. I still believe there is room for an entry level sled with a high powered 300-350cc 2S, but as Yamdoo explained, the cost would be a shift in internal sales. In April of 2019 I gave it my best shot with an Entry level sled in the line-up for 2020 and even worked out the Power to Weight for different Rotax engines. After seeing what BRP did with the 600 EFI, I tried to show how it was missing the point, but I failed miserably once I realized who was really missing the point, which was none other than myself. The attempt was a pleasure to work through it. In the end I declared a defeat to an OEM that was already a decade ahead and well over 10 steps ahead of me.

For Baron who is looking to make a case for a new market in the Mid-Range, I think that this would work best by taking a look from the standpoint of Arctic Cat, Polaris and Yamaha. This past winter/spring I was at the dealer show in Montreal. I was thinking of this when you mentioned brand loyalty. I took the time to browse each manufacturer and could not believe the difference. I came out of there with one prevailing thought, that the other brands are not really competing with BRP. You are free to call it brand loyalty, but I don't see it that way. I have a penchant towards Arctic Cat engines, but when I sit on their sleds I don't feel like I want to ride them. I like some things about the Polaris too, but it comes to the point that I feel like I would be choosing to ride a square Lada of the 80s and 90s. To me they are trailing to far behind. So if I wanted to make a market case of any kind, I would focus on Arctic Cat, Polaris or Yamaha.

 

My reply may have been long, but you guys do realize it was only one point of view??? I hope to see a lot of different takes on the same question. My reply was mostly for Djm because I enjoyed what I learned from him over the years, and the same from many of you.

 

My reply may have been long, but you guys do realize it was only one point of view??? I hope to see a lot of different takes on the same question. My reply was mostly for Djm because I enjoyed what I learned from him over the years, and the same from many of you.

Ha ha.. I know it is not financially attractive or even possible to come back with a 700HO or 770, for those few of us who know the feeling of the light sled with super quick throttle response. It is never going to happen. You can't make the 850 with a few pounds more weight and a heavier longer stroke crank feel the same with clutching.. Yes it is amazing what you can do with clutching.. and how you can even cover up fuel calibration issues with it. But if one comes out of a corner, with the 700HO/770 with his bud on the 850/800R, and it is a wide straight trail you can be around him in an instant... and on down the trail on your side.. of the trail.. before his engine spooled up.. Not that we need to do that. Ha ha... but it sure feels good.

 

I would be far more interested in better advancements in getting the power to the ground imagine a 600 class sled putting 850 power to the ground. To me this is where the next most important advancement in the sport is going to come from. This would give us all more reliable engines, and better economy.

 

I would be far more interested in better advancements in getting the power to the ground imagine a 600 class sled putting 850 power to the ground. To me this is where the next most important advancement in the sport is going to come from. This would give us all more reliable engines, and better economy.

You mean something significantly over the current 50 to 56% of engine horsepower applied to the snow?

 

You mean something significantly over the current 50 to 56% of engine horsepower applied to the snow?

Correct, imagine a 600 putting 90% of its power to the ground.

 

Not going to happen!

Bob

 

Not going to happen!

Bob

Is "not going to happen" because it's too complex/costly or can not physically be done? Explain