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Scuttle Buttin' Solo
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
First off thanks Joe & Irondog for holding my hand with some reassurance. I thought for sure it was gonna break!
You see I had a real tough time separating the halves.


Okay, I'm not sure of my pin weight. The stub was 5/16 of an inch long, only one, and before the rubber and solid center. If someone could take a stab at what that might be it would be a great help.

On the buttons the ones you use the retaining forks for. I've never not see them without springs behind them. Is this how it is now on the newer xp's? They were in great shape but the little O rings were crushed and flat. One was all pitted. What would cause that?

Beside the clutch being totally filthy, the ramps, and arms were a half turn loose at best just to make snug, and not a drop of lock tight on anything. Is it not needed or was the kit installation done in hast?

The primary spring best I could tell was maybe orange
at one time?

The faces of the sheaves looked great except for the excessive black where the belt rides at idle. In the very center at the smallest diameter closest to the spindle the sheaves where very abused looking and almost looked as if they got real hot and were flaking. Maybe not flaking but kinda pitted. What causes that?
 

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Scuttle Buttin' Solo
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Wow!

So no springs behind the buttons. Thats good to know. I'm glad I found those forks! lol

I can get a gram scale. I think I have a triple beam somewhere around here. Don't ask!

Not sure what I should do now besides contact Billy again. I'm glad I see it instead of just guessing what I should do to get the performance the way I want it.

Any suggestions on where to start?

My opinion is even though I don't know the weight, it's too much, and the gearing maybe down one too many tooths.
 

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The pitting in the bottom of the clutch can be caused by the shieves rubbing together. I believe there is a washer in the primary to prevent this, sometimes guys take them out to get a better "full shift", but it will result in damage to the bottoms of the shieves.

Lock tight should be used, sounds like someone threw the job together as fast as they could. Good thing nothing came loose or you may have more of a mess.

Try lightening up the weight first, and see how it reacts. Kind of hard to play right now without being able to test though. Too bad we dont have snow yet!
 

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Metalhead
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My opinion is even though I don't know the weight, it's too much, and the gearing maybe down one too many tooths.
What are rpms when at full throttle?
Weight determines rpms(at full throttle)
If low rpms, Then reduce grams.
1g = approximate 150~200 rpms at full throttle.
If say need 8200 and getting 8000~8050, then reduce about 1.0gram.

What evidence do you have to support your comment of being geared too low?
What are the characteristics of a sled that has correct gearing?
 

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You did buy the sled used didn't you? Just curios why you say you have too much weight. Could you not get the proper RPM's on clicker three? What were your R's? Those O rings do get bad but shouldn't have in only two years. Previous owner pinched them? If your clutch was that dirty you might have one of those 800 belt eaters. Check your clutch alignment. Better yet, get a clutch tower brace and Doodoctor's floating QRS. Have you had your case cover off to see what your gearing is?
 

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Joe if he has a 200/380 spring and is running 23.5gr of pinweight. The rpms are about correct, but it is not very responsive off trail. Kind of sluggish in pulling the rpm. I am experiencing the same thing with that spring at 22.5 grams, i am pulling about 8300rpm.

I think he mentioned that it does not want to hook up when it decides to pull rpm, you can verify the top gear by pulling the rubber cover off, a screwdriver works good, just try not to puncture the rubber.
 

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Scuttle Buttin' Solo
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
At full throttle after a short lull of the initial mash of the throttle to full it climbs quickly to 8200 but the exhaust note climbs quicker as either the belt slips or it spins too much, as it never feels as though it will pull your arms off.

My evidence? lol Well it revs much quicker than the actual acceleration once it get moving, and IMO has less than optimum top speed. (87-93tops)

Characteristics? Good acceleration and smoothness all the way to top speed in all conditions for the style of ridding you do.
 

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Scuttle Buttin' Solo
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75,139 Posts
You did buy the sled used didn't you? Just curios why you say you have too much weight. Could you not get the proper RPM's on clicker three? What were your R's? Those O rings do get bad but shouldn't have in only two years. Previous owner pinched them? If your clutch was that dirty you might have one of those 800 belt eaters. Check your clutch alignment. Better yet, get a clutch tower brace and Doodoctor's floating QRS. Have you had your case cover off to see what your gearing is?
Yes I bought it used and he had a dealer install the kit for him when he had it. It holds well the 8200rpm at #3 yes.

The previous owner said in the time he had it he only went through 1 belt, and the second belt was on it. When I bought the sled I bought 2 new belts, and a brace. I also bought a shim kit but to me it was insurance as I didn't think after checking it and riding it watching for wear it needed it. I did install the brace.

Never checked the gearing myself. I was told he dropped it so it would hold rpm when he switched to the 1.75 track.

Let me say when I rode with a friend who had a stock TNT 500 he ate me for lunch out of the hole, and doing 35 or so if I see him accelerate he could leave me and only after a bit of distance would I then fly by him. We both weigh the same.
 

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Scuttle Buttin' Solo
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
The pitting in the bottom of the clutch can be caused by the shieves rubbing together. I believe there is a washer in the primary to prevent this, sometimes guys take them out to get a better "full shift", but it will result in damage to the bottoms of the shieves.
There is NO shim or washer under or on top of the primary spring.
 

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There is NO shim or washer under or on top of the primary spring.
Ahh your are correct sir, i just looked at the diagram for the primary of your sled.

Can you pull that rubber piece and let us know what your top gear is?
 

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What ramps are in there? What Helix on the secondary and do you know what spring is in the secondary?

If you're not getting good low end acceleration you can try a higher secondary spring - like a 200/300.

A sluggish low end may also be a weak primary spring, it would be helpful to know what spring is in yours.

Also sounds like you are not getting a good straight shift, if properly set-up the RPMs will go right to 8200 and stay there when you pin it.
 

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Scuttle Buttin' Solo
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Sorry I'm trying to grill here! lol

23T


Yup everything seems soft/smooth none crisp and aggressive to me.

All other sleds in comparison that I've owned seemed that you could dance with 'em just using the throttle. This one you drive.

Nothings binding, rubbing, and the gas mileage is fine. It seems fast, but not quick.
 

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Metalhead
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At full throttle after a short lull of the initial mash of the throttle to full it climbs quickly to 8200 but the exhaust note climbs quicker as either the belt slips or it spins too much, as it never feels as though it will pull your arms off.
My evidence? lol Well it revs much quicker than the actual acceleration once it get moving, and IMO has less than optimum top speed. (87-93tops)
Characteristics? Good acceleration and smoothness all the way to top speed in all conditions for the style of ridding you do.
According to gear calculator you are geared for 91mph
If you are getting that kind of mph with 1.75 you are doing darn good so there must not be that much snow to run on.

The stock secondary spring is a 225/300
B-A-L writes)Well it revs much quicker than the actual acceleration once it get moving
joe writes) then you are going to have to do a test. Upon sledding conditions, go out again with the as-is setup. If you can run against someone who can take you off the line that would be great. Do that a few times, make a few notes of the performance.
Go back and remove secondary spring and install a dalton red 200/300 = try to see if you need to load the engine harder off the start. Also this will make the engine push a little harder through the midrange.

OR

do you know anyone who has an 800rev or 800xp short track, and see if you can borrow their 414 ramps out of it. Leaving your system alone right now and can go test again against the quicker guy (with the stock purple secondary spring) then can go back and change the primary clutch ramps to the 414's The 414's push harder off the bottom end than your stock ramps, they push harder with your gearing to about 30 mph and then blend in as the same as your present ramps, will be the same acceleration all the way to top end mph.

A question arises - what ramps do you have in the primary clutch? And, are you using quick clickers and if so, which ones? the nut replacement ones or?.....
 

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Scuttle Buttin' Solo
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Top secret ramps that came in the stage2 kit. No, no quick clickers. The standard ones are good enough aren't they?

I don't think they are that slow.

Ya, I said it felt fast! (although I wished it could still hit a 100mph) Just not quick enough and it feels heavy even though I know it's not. (I can almost bench the dry weight
) If the throttle response was crisper I think it would make it feel lighter.
 

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Top secret ramps that came in the stage2 kit. No, no quick clickers. The standard ones are good enough aren't they?

I don't think they are that slow.

Ya, I said it felt fast! (although I wished it could still hit a 100mph) Just not quick enough and it feels heavy even though I know it's not. (I can almost bench the dry weight
) If the throttle response was crisper I think it would make it feel lighter.
Bark a Lounger

Sorry I havnt been on Doo Talk for about a month .and peaked quick last night all new format gotta learn my way around again.... Thanks For E mail heads up on post at work today.... You mentioned previouse owner ran sled and kit about 3000 miles and you only 300 miles before end of winter..

Get me Name of owner and I can check notes of exactly what we sent/sold him....

For sure after 2000 miles most springs drive and driven will start to loose there crispness ....deff at 3000 mile mark or once a year new drive and driven springs should be replaced IMO...... also at 3000 miles usually the spring cup bushing is worn as well as the sliding half bushing ...and almost always the rollers and bushings....with all this inspected and fresheend up ...then start some test n tuning pinning rpm,s vs speed vs snowconditions........

Snow just around the corner Gang great time to pull clutches and inspect all....yeee Haaa.....

Xp,s looking great for 2011 Season..

Thanks Joe for helping us all out including myself You Rock ! Go Fast be Safe !!!

Billy Howard
 

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Scuttle Buttin' Solo
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thanks Billy, I knew we could get to the bottom of it.

PM & E-Mail sent....
 

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The quick clickers work wonders if you are adjusting, for the cost of them they are worth it. I can pretty much change all my clickers in 30 seconds with my thumb.

Also, Joe not to split hairs, but accodring to bomb, the stock secondary spring for the 09 renegade and short track is a 180/303, the 08 is a 231/303... Just to clarify
 

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Metalhead
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The spring i was talking about was for the 08 model.
I buy springs by box of 100 and have measured at least 20 of the xp purple secondary spring and they were not at the forces advertised. The actual values average out to about 225 start to 290 final, i have measured a new one that was 285 final. I have recorded this on video for my tuning dvd to illustrate "what spring heights" the tuner needs to observe to record correct data. These springs are saved and being used for drag racers, i won't send them out in a trail kit.

I have had improved performance, quicker throttle response under load in an 09 summit taking out the original long xp-purple and installing the shorter 225/300 rev secondary spring with tang ground off. (to which in 09 there was a batch of secondary springs that were contributing to fluctuating rpms)
 

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The spring i was talking about was for the 08 model.
I buy springs by box of 100 and have measured at least 20 of the xp purple secondary spring and they were not at the forces advertised. The actual values average out to about 225 start to 290 final, i have measured a new one that was 285 final. I have recorded this on video for my tuning dvd to illustrate "what spring heights" the tuner needs to observe to record correct data. These springs are saved and being used for drag racers, i won't send them out in a trail kit.

I have had improved performance, quicker throttle response under load in an 09 summit taking out the original long xp-purple and installing the shorter 225/300 rev secondary spring with tang ground off. (to which in 09 there was a batch of secondary springs that were contributing to fluctuating rpms)
Nice findings and good to know.....

I use a 225/335 in my secondary on a 44 helix, my spring is from 2koolperformance.com as i could not find it from anywhere else, and goodwin was absolutely no help to me at all.
 
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