mach z, renegade, or supercharged apex

supercat said:

I am between sleds right now, I hope this question can be answered without brand loyalty clouding your answers. I am going to buy a new sled, I do 90 percent trail and 10 percent drag racing (lake). Even while trail riding I NEED the power!

You guys ride with enough buddies who ride other stuff so I hope you can help. I like the mach z, but want the front end travel back like the renegade. Can I just put the longer shocks on the Mach or are there more differences in the front suspension from the Renegade?
I am also considering an Apex, but only with a stage 1 supercharger.
Those of you that ride with buddies who have supercharged Apex's, how do they like them? Handling, any lag with a supercharger, trail friendly?
Brand loyalty is great, but please leave that aside for this answer. 10-15 thousand is way too much to pay for something you can't test drive for a day!!!

P.S. I have had big bores, turbo 2 strokes, and nitrous sleds in the past. I love horsepower but as I get older I am also looking for long term handling and comfort.

Thanks

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I will probably take on major flaming for answering this but here goes. I rode doo for 15 years last year I ordered a brand new renegade 1000 which I rode for 2 weekends and hated it. I took it up north into 5' roughly of powder and found it so heavy that it couldn't keep the front end up in the snow. Second time out it lost a ton of power CEL was on steady would run 1/2 the time on 1 cylinder etc... I just had no luck with it at all. I had an 05 Mach Z which was the most fun sled I had ever owned I absolutely loved it after I installed REV X shocks all around to make it a little more aggressive for my riding style. So back to the Gade hating it I took it to the dealer and dumped it Greg from Jaws actually ended up with my sled. We had a pair of them and I went with a Mach Z my father purchased an Apex GT.
We were both happy and went off to the cottage for the first weekend on our second set of new 06 sleds for the winter. So naturally we started to race and it was all good. My mach was beating it pretty bad in a drag race as we would naturally expect it would just drive away from the apex both studded with 192 studs. Next we popped the radar gun out I have a stalker Pro gun. Measured off 2000' with one of those Luftkin wheels that you can get at canadian tire and we marked both ends. First run out the stock mach clickers turned to #2 which produced the best MPH turned a 114 in the 2000' measured distance keep in mind this was brand new never broken in etc. Next was the apex and low and behold to my disgst it turned a 115 in the same distance within 5 minutes of the mach Z's run I was "edit for bad language". Off to the garage I went and threw Bondi's clutch kit in the mach came down and spanked the apex turning 120 in the 2000'.
I honestly HATED the apex the first time I rode it as I HATED the rev in 03 the first time I rode it and later it became my favorite sled. First impression is sometimes tarnished. So for the first weekend we swapped back and fourth and rode each others sleds. We both noted how SMOOTH the apex is compared to the mach the mono shock rear is stellar. The apex will not with stock ski's out handle the mach z the mach corners flatter but a stiffer sway bar and pilot ski's really make the apex work well.

So after the first weekend we sort of talked and came up with running the MPI stage one Supercharger on the apex. So I ordered the kit Monday and had it overnighted to be there Tuesday to do the install and have it ready for the weekend. I ordered the kit with the 5 lb pulleys and we did the install in 4 evenings working from around 6-10 pm each night. Done and running Friday night we headed to the cottage for running Saturday. With the numbers MPI gave me I spent about 30 mins dialing in the AFR using the WMS wideband gauge. After which we went for a small trail ride and then came back to check everything. I had since let my dad ride the sled and he said it felt really fast. So we headed to town for fuel and lined em up. First race out the Apex put about 3 bus lengths on the Mach in 2000' easily which was very impressive over the weekend be fore's performance so I was in awe to say the least. We continued to run it and had a great time posting 128 mph a few times on the 5 lbs setting on our lake in 2000' so it was working quite well the mach was still turning 119-120 mph. But the APEX would absolutely out accelerate it hands down everywhere reel it in and win every race no matter what we did. So we knew we were onto something.

It stayed at 5 lbs for about 800 miles and we bumped it up to 10 lbs after I had a close run with a buddy of mines Mach Z 800 with porting and pipes. So running at 10 psi now was a little more aggressive for sure and I also found that now riding the sled most of the time myself I was really starting to like it a lot. I loved the feel and power and it has power at 10 lbs! I also found out that now at 10 psi in 2000' I was shifting the clutches full and locked! Not good!!!! So we geared the sled up to 26t on top and went at it again. Took it to our strip and run a 136 in the 2000' marked out section! Very impressive I was very happy and it is the fastest sled I have owned ever that was trail ride able. Now keep in mind I AM playing with fire at 10 psi on pump fuel and its NOT for everyone to take it that far and expect it to live there are a lot of little tricks I have learned playing turbo cars.

So we kind of come back to the start being a doo guy for 15 years I was sort of coaxed into the Yamaha last year after my dad decided it was just to much for him so we swapped after the second weekend me riding the apex (ski doo suit and all) for the winter. It was a big eye opener to me and how ignorant I was over the 4 stroke granted I didn't like it a whole lot till it was modded but it is hands down smoother then the mach all day long.

So I would have to say it was an adventure of a year and I don't look back now at all the Apex is by far my favorite sled and I really enjoy it a lot. Some people complain about the extra weight but do you notice the difference between a full tank of fuel and an empty tank of fuel. The average sled holds 10 gallons of fuel at 6lbs per gallon that's 60 lbs difference can anyone out there that trail rides their sled tell the difference???

My last point is that people say the Mach Z is lighter then the apex this is true but add on electric start to the Mach and you are within lbs of each other. Both are awesome sleds for me I do favor the Yamaha now I didn't have the engine problems on either Mach Z we had but the gade was a different story. If I was in the boat of some people from this site with motor problems lasting part of the season with no resolution I think it would be a no brainer to jump ship. All in all everyone is entitled to their own opinion just telling you like it is here from my side and I am enjoying the new ride a lot. No brand loyalty here to either side anymore for me. If ski-doo came out with something better next year I would be back riding yellow. I have reached a point that bleeding yellow no longer exists and take it from one of the biggest skeptics you would ever talk to before I RODE the sled I would bash these things up and down being ignorant to them and never giving them a chance. After giving it a go I couldn't be happier. If I were in your shoes considering the Apex and SC stage 1 kit if you want to beat most any modded mach Z out there aside from Big bore and bottle whores then the Apex with a little forced induction will go along way. Again won't be the fastest thing out there, always come across a guy that's faster but for 99% of the crowd it sure works well!

If you want to be able to ride it and enjoy it on the lake and in the trail I would go with the SkiDoo's. The Yamaha is still heavier and at the end of a long day of riding you'll feel it. If all you want to do is run across the lake well the Yamaha with a supercharger is going to move pretty good. If you want to play around off trail go with the Renegade but becareful because it is a pig when it get stuck as well, I know I have one. Maybe the best thing is for you to ride a few different sleds this year and see which works best for you. Good Luck

Having owned a Gade and a Mach I can tell you that there is no comparison in the on trail ride, you just cant beat a long track in that department. I have never rode an Apex so I can not comment on their ride.Hell just go with the Gade 1000 add some spray and you should have most bases covered and a lot cheaper too

supercat said:

Thanks A7M266D,
that is exactly the response I was looking for. Not necessarily the conclusion, but the experience with both!
How did you feel about the Apex as far as rider forward? I HATE the convensional seating now that I rode my brothers rev. My last ZR was an ergonamic nightmare!!
Was the Apex a comforatble position for trail riding?

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Since you rode the REV you can admit that you probably felt very uncomfortable at first on it probably for the first few k's anyways you felt like what the hell is with this thing?? I know I did. Then after oh say the first 100k you couldn't pry that thing out of my hands with a crow bar.

Same sorta deal on the apex. I actaully find you sit almost IDENTICALLY to the mach Z on the Apex and most magazines commented how Yamaha pretty much stole the Mach Z's ergo's for this sled. Its cloes but not 100% there. I find you tend to sit a little higher on the yamaha myself with your arms more at maybe 85* to your body so a very upright seating position. Its not at all conventional to sit on like you are describing. I know how you feel going from rider forward to almost like you are laying down with your feet infront of you makes ya wonder how we even rode those sleds doesn't it?

I found the apex seat at first a little firm at first like you didn't sit down in it at all and I kept sliding forward until I got used to the sled and I got the seat broken in a bit. Now you pretty much stay put but it does have a nice seat that keeps you up high you sit very very similar to the mach but the bars tend to feel a little higher.

I will also argue anyone all day long that the mono shock for trail riding is the best in the biz. I have never owned a ski-doo peroid an X or anything aside from the 440 rev x that I had that I could pound in a trail without needing to be revalved. The yamaha with the clicker shocks and GT electric shock is awesome granted I did install the heavier spring that Yamaha offers because I was worried about a few instances of kinked tunnels from guys leaping apex GT's and bottoming them.
The skid is really plus in the beginning and works amazingly well I was extremely impressed with it and if you ride 90% trail its the sled to have if you feel you are going to smash the thing off of everything out there get an RTX it has a ski similar to the SC10 found in the Doo's calibrated for rough trails.

The WEIGHT issue keeps coming up so I do ask anyone this again do you notice at all the difference in how yours sled handles on the trail from a full tank to empty? Can you honestly say you feel the different in how it performs? The average sled holds 10 gallons of fuel at 6 lbs per gallon thats 60 lbs extra on your sled. Also the apex to mach weight always seems to come up well I betcha a renegade with electric start outweights an apex and I also bet a Mach Z with electric start weighs within 5-10 lbs of the apex so weight on these sleds means nothing. If you are comparing an Apex to a REV sure its heavier for the guy that rides big Iron IE Mach Z's its already common to him how it will handle. I bet it even surprises alot of guys it sure surprised me!

Rockitman said:

I agree with the weight between full and empty tank of gas bit, but take a apex off a drift and see what happens. I have a friend that has a Apex with the Hauck racing setup pipes, chip and clutch. It runs great sounds awesome, turns better with after market skis and wear bars. However he is selling it and coming back to SkiDoo. Why you ask, because he likes to jump stuff,and the Apex doesn't doo that well at all, in fact it sucks at it. I have taken my Renegade 1000 over some drifts and had alittle nose dive but nothing like he did. I say you need to ride them all of them. There are different like to all of us, that's why we have four sled manufactures. Ride them and see what works for you.

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These sleds are not made for jumping. To think that anyone would buy an Apex, Mach Z or Renegade 1000 for jumping purposes is like a guy buying a Corvett to use as his Winter car!! If your buddy wants to jump stuff then he should buy an X package MXZ Rev. The Mach Z is not a great bump sled like the Rev is and in my opinion it isn't near as good as the Apex either. The Mach is a go fast sled only. The early reports on the new Cat 1000 are very impressive, those who have tested them compared to the Mach claim that the Cat has a very light feel and carves around corners like no other rider forward sled. I think that anyone who rides a Rev and likes the way it handles and feels will not be happy with the Mach Z. What Doo needs to offer is a Rev with Mach Z power just like Cat has done with the F- chassis sleds. The new F 1000 only weighs 18 lbs more than the F 600. I think all this comparo talk between the Mach and Apex is like apples and oranges. Most people I know who own Apex's including myself bought them for the reliability of the fourstroke engine. If you want to compare the Mach to something then the only other two stroke 1000 out there is the new Cat and I'm afraid that the new Cat will run circles around the Mach in ride, handling and big bump capability and knowing Cat it will probably be faster also.

What Doo needs to offer is a Rev with Mach Z power just like Cat has done with the F- chassis sleds. The new F 1000 only weighs 18 lbs more than the F 600. If you want to compare the Mach to something then the only other two stroke 1000 out there is the new Cat and I'm afraid that the new Cat will run circles around the Mach in ride, handling and big bump capability and knowing Cat it will probably be faster also.
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What you fail to realize is that cat has created a new heavier type chassis for the F1000 and then just made it it work for the smaller engines.....thus making the f5 & f6 some of the heaviest 500/600cc sleds made for 2007. The REV 600 & 800 should easily out handle any new F series....However a REV 1000cc would be much more desirable sled than the R/T 1000.

You guys ride with enough buddies who ride other stuff so I hope you can help. I like the mach z, but want the front end travel back like the renegade. Can I just put the longer shocks on the Mach or are there more differences in the front suspension from the Renegade?

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Bolt the 2" longer travel REV-X front shocks & X rear shaocks (same travel) on a MachZ or Renegade and call it good!!

It would be nice to test ride all of them, preferably on the same day/trail. Unfortunately, where do you find a Machz, sc Apex and Renegade all available for a trail ride under similar conditions? If anyone is offering to let me test ride somewhere in Michigan, I am there!!