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OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
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9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #138 ·
The extra 30 hp on these sleds doesn’t equal top end for some reason. The extra hp gets more low end and midrange smack but up top in any snow it’s a dog. Gears are a waste unless your riding plowed ice road. Guys will spend lots of time finding a few mph but in the end it’s still a pooch on top.


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I agree the DOO just does not make MPH like the Winder does. Doos really have not for awhile, losing MPH with each Gen IMO. XS was faster then G4. Sucks for Mach Z it should have come with 1" track option and an actual lower suspension, my Mach is a tad HIGHER then Danos front end on his 900r Adr. Grrr..

Dan
 

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OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
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9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #139 ·
we are still looking into why the top speed is low
the biggest change was the pdrive, thats where we are looking first
Spring cup keeps being mentioned and I will certainly reduce mine soon enough, but IMO that would not come into play until maybe 118 or MORE speeds. Playing in the 110-112GPS range I dont believe the spring cup is tapping things out yet.

I did detect some slippage on top end when looking closely at Danos last night upon reinstalling his stock 880 ramps. I have felt for some time now the secondary spring(finish) is too soft, and so a helix and spring out back will likely be my next stage of the tuning. Dalton springs will end up all the way around for longevity for sure.

Dan
 

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OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
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9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #141 ·
I'm guessing Bombi will come out with a recall because of the complaints,likely a reflash
This IMO is something BRP MUST do, and soon. To release a ONE SEASON flagship bringing back the mighty MACH nameplate and them mostly ALL to be getting beat by their own Adr model? Come on this ads insult to injury on a pandemic year where most guys are still waiting for sled...wow, could it be any worse?

For BRP to not step up with at MINIMUM an explanation...Tell us the ECU is pulling back, or the break-in lasts longer then 2 tankfuls, or give us a flash! SAY SOMETHING BRP!

Anything they say would help the deafening silence IMO!

I believe this ECU is way way way over-intruding into every aspect of this sleds rpm range as soon as it's a tad longer run at WOT. AIT's, Octane, and who knows what else....Winder never did nothing but let her eat. While clutching may help Its a long way from feeling like a 200hp sled.

Dan
 

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OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
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9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #143 ·
My money is on Louis that he has a fix before BRP.
Olivier is the guy I would love to hear from for sure brother! He likely is the only tuner out there that knows this new ECU like back of his hand. I would love to see B.E. come out with a tune for the 900r, and SOON!

Between the sleds poor performance and such crappy snow so far this year, can things get any worse?

lol

Dan
 

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OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
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9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #144 ·
In my mind the clutches/ramps on the standard 900r are just fine. The top mph is what is and it's not going to be a 120mph sled without spending $$
I do love how the 880 ramps work on my Mach much better....and after I studded mine this week man does it feel strong with those ramps and actual traction. Will see how i like it with new Daltons and revving correctly.

I dont see 120GPS with 1.25 track, possibly a 1" track on ice with all else perfect. But not easy with this chassie/skid combo.

Dan
 

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OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
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9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #145 ·
It only makes 16psi of boost on gauge we tested,(should be 17.4 as per BRP) That's why its slow-ramps are too heavy by 4-5 grams, springs to light, helix to steep, Did they forget clutching 101?

1.4psi is like 15HP!!

If you had full boost/power the clutching would be close to spot on for the average rider!

lake racer they say- lmao WTF did we pay $25k for, my 600r is as fast on top end as this thing!!

Awesome trail sled, best I've rode, suspension is unreal, but it is not a lake racer- what a disappointment BRP!
You said it brother! (y)
 

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OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
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9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #252 · (Edited)
Finally getting caught up here after much testing all weekend.

First off, lets just back up a bit as to this particular thread's OP. While I understand threads take on a life of their own and it's good to move onto other theories, let me just begin with what i was attempting to figure out in the OP.

Clutching Issues:
I had a Mach revving 7400-7500 right next to an Adrenalin revving 7900-8000. Both brand new sleds of 2022 model year. So the clutch component swap was on, and first proved the ADR ramps would make the Mach rev the same. First question was answered and concluded the Mach did have same power as the Adr.

Hated the Mach ramps, got the Daltons very fast from Chris and slapped them in. Set them up initially from the testing experience at 2.7g to center of body(bottomed) with tip open @77.6g total. This worked quite nicely, and had the Mach revving 8200 cold, and 8000 warm with a long haul fall back to a solid 7900 hot lap.

The big test came Sunday with our big local lake being ready to get onto ice(Lake of Bays).... side by side with Dano's test mule Adrenalin bone stock. Just to refresh memories, the Adrenalin initially had 5mph and 500 rpm over the Mach. Now with the Dalton adj ramps, these two sleds were basically identical in speed. Tapped 112 & 113GPS in some sections of the lake which has less snow than others.

So this was my goal of this thread, to answer the question why my Mach was so far off from the Adrenaline. I do think the 880 ramps are much nicer then the Mach ramps overall, however I love the Daltons for their obvious adjustability as I can dial in rpms for diff belts ect ect.

For me this is how you clutch, start with ramps with a range, now I will move to the springs of my choice(Dalton brand) that will not sack over time, I do this on all sleds I own, not just this Mach. I also believe we need less helix angle, and will be ordering that as well.

Other issues:

After a long day of lake running and watching the tach, I have some conclusions.

First off, i do not feel there is any octane(or lack of octane) ECU intrusion. We tried alot of short and very very long pulls holding WOT for 3-4 miles even, and my RPMS held solid. Longer hauls would stick at 7900 once all was hot. Never below.

When hitting snow/ice sections the Rpms drop a fair bit though, then come back fast.....this is telltale sign of too soft back-pressure or in other words secondary spring not holding solid rpms. Secondary is reacting to the surface change from ice to snow. My answer will be more spring and less helix combo. Always been a big fan of Dalton helix too, Dale works his magic on the design and top quality bushings, all measured in equal manner as BRP helix. 47 is far too steep for start, and 40 is too steep for finish. I will certainly post what I end up with after testing down the road. Also will be adding more primary spring as well, along with Ultimax.

In the end, this ECU is not producing anywhere near 17.6PSI IMO. It certainly feels strong in middle but top end just doesnt have it. I would be surprised if this was anywhere over 14psi peak boost.

I really dont think this will change either. The more miles I get on this sled, the more I think there is NO break-in 'chip' at all. It's been running exact same since day 1. I have close to 300 miles now on ticker and have gone through well over 3 tankfuls with no change in power.

I do not think there are any boost leaks as I have checked every connection, and I do not think that there is any crack pressure issue being too low ect.

Unless the ECU magically unleashes more boost at 1000 miles or something, i think BRP will need to come out with a reflash or something. For them to advertise 17.6PSI last fall and suck us all in, and deliver 14-15psi or so is really terrible.

And Nick has been testing the standalone from Hurricane with great success over 20psi or so, and crack pressure hold fine, and i think his forearms are sore from holding on! So these engines as designed can run strong, its the ECU holding us back and likely BRP can fix that but will they???

Dan
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OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
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9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #255 ·
rockerdan, is your testing with a stock 571 belt or are you running the ultimax already? Reason I'm asking is, I have Dalton's in my Renegade X with silver screw in the tip and 3.4g toward the heel and I'm at 8-8200 with all other clutch components stock.
Yes stock 571 belt. I am switching over to my Ultimax though moving forward.

One thing missing from my kit is that silver tip screw(used kit) and if I had it I wanted to load that. The steel tip screws were too much for mine. I would leave that in there if you are at 8000 solid HOT laps.

Remember the Heel slug when loaded at extreme heel will do very little toward top RPMS but will hit harder in bottom and mid. I tested my heel fully loaded with an additional 2.1g flush to heel and it did go to top MPH much faster i felt. However with that much overall body weight it lost its quick rev ability. So Im aiming for somewhere in between.

The beauty of these ramps are the huge range of ways you can set them up, to anyones liking for any style, one setup for tight trails vs another setup for lakes....love them.

Dan
 

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OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
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9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #265 ·
Let me know when you are all settled in with my next clutching setup! Lol


Other than the RPM thing, how do you like the sled? Smart shox?

I don't have a lot of miles on mine yet but it feels like I will be in sport+ mostly with a little sport mode sprinkled in. Which surprised me. I thought I would be more toward sport and comfort. I didn't realize I liked my suspension so stiff personally. Comfort is like a 1970's couch. Fine for the guys going slow but at the cost of performance.

Not sure what you mean??

As for the smart shox I love them so far. Got to run through a really nice trail yesterday at high speed, and the sled is flat as hell, it has little to no lean at all on corners. I also launched it off a river crossing bridge on purpose with a hole on other side that should have hurt bad, but even in medium setting the rear did not bottom. I believe the SS wont allow bottoming, and why the Mach can run lower rear skid. My rear skid sits a fair bit lower then the Adrenalin side by side.

The firm mode is just all that much better, feeling so much more connected to the snow its incredible for ultra fast running. Easily the best part of the '22 900r/Mach Z is the Smart Shox for sure.

Dan
 

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OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
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9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #267 ·
I mean I wont have to mess around with clutching. Once you get it all figured out I can just buy my "rockerdan" setup lol.

Low rpms do feel lazy compared to the cudney clutch setup I had on my previous 900t. So I look forward to clutching it in the off-season. I've never not had a sled with studs but I might be skipping them this time around. It's nice having a sled that rails without especially heavy steering to counter push.
Oh gotcha....LOL. Sorry my OCD seems to forget all sense of humour!

After i installed my studs, the sled felt like I added another 100hp. LOL. Just no replacement for traction and how hard these turbos pull in bottom and mid.

We just need to get them to produce 17psi consistently and I think we will have a real good long term trail monster. If the stock ECU never allows this I can see myself going with a standalone and enjoying the big power.

Dan
 

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OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
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9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #297 ·
I like the 880s far better then the 897 Mach ramps. Thought I mentioned that several times. The drive off and mid is just harder hitting. Mach ramps feel soft in bottom and mid in comparison. I 100% believe they designed them to help with LC, and me along with many others have gone to Dalton Adjustables which work much more like the 880s(depending on how you load them) and still allow the LC to work as my engagement is 3100-3200. I am running them pretty light though.

Going now to the ultimax will change things so I have some items going to order to work with that belt.

I have said this before and will mention it again, because I believe this is just not talked about enough. For anyone here to say he will be back to other ramps, or he will go another direction, ect ect....simply does not understand clutching. 5 guys can clutch the same sled 5 different ways, coming at things from a different approach. And all 5 of those sleds may have totally different components yet all wind up MPH similarly.

Clutching is a feel, and what you want from your sled. My top priority items are likely alot different than others. I loved my Pl/Pl secondary spring for years while most all others hated it. Im a corner to corner junky who wants to ride this like my 850.

And BTW I definitely will be doing a transfer MOD of my own, since this new RmoX IMO is way way too docile, BRP made this sled like that CAT skid and now its the most un-playful suspension I have rode on a Doo.

If you guys think gaining RPMS will make this sled magically MPH that is not gonna happen. We are down on BOOST IMO and fighting a ECU with more parameters than many of todays supercars. Until BRP gives us a flash to get some of these safety factors reduced, these 900r's will never be MPH sleds IMO.

My goal is to get my corner to corner Jam on with some serious clutching. 180/303 and 47 degree start-angle helix aint ever gone do that for me. ECU wont intrude on trails corner to corner, so for now its all about making this a corner to corner monster.

Dan
 

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OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
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9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #337 ·
if you're a corner to corner guy, why do you want the front up in the air? The R mo x corners way better on the throttle than the old setup because of this. You can still seat bounce the front up and over moguls and run them hard.

Do you have data logged on the manifold pressure ?

The bosch PCM in that sled is not more sophisticated than the pick up truck you likely drive to pull your sled, which is really no different than a super car either.
Muskoka trails get pounded out fast, mogul city. Riding here for over 50 yrs you want to blip the nose off moguls to skip them. This new Skid does not do that whatsoever, so I do not agree with you on that.

As for the ECU. Lots of talk with people working in them, and have been told by multiple people about the super encryption in this ECU. Maybe you should tell them your theory on my trucks ECU, Im sure they will get a good laugh. I have no skin in the game, just following along like everyone else.

Dan
 

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OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
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9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #339 ·
Dan,

Have you ever thought of adding the Remote Coupler Block adjuster:


Let’s you run coupled OR uncoupled…..I have one going on my XRS once I get the call that the SDCU/smart shox controller is in (assuming that happens this winter lol).

I thought this would make my sled an XRS/Lynx lol…..
Yes I have seen that before and would probably like it alot. I guess im just more looking at a few mods like I normally do which are simple and FREE. lol

But thanks for reminding me, I do like that item.

Dan
 

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OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
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9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #341 ·
I don't know how long they have had the ignore feature on here, but holy cow it's nice. You ignore 3 or 4 account's and this forum gets a lot more enjoyable again. Just a few cancerous guys that won't quit. Sell the thing. Go away. Nobody cares.
Ahhhh YES.... you NAILED it!

I have the idiots on IGNORE and life is so great! Certain people should NOT be allowed on this forum IMO or anywhere on the internet.
 

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OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
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9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #404 ·
Have you lined up a 900R and an 850 ? Multiple 850’s in my group walk the 900R spinning 8000RPM from 90 on up.

The guys in my group that ordered Machs are selling them and keeping their 850’s.
I did love my 850 alot. Alot has to do with the fact they come out of the box revving spot on. They just work period. As a matter of fact I did not even open my tool box that entire winter, just ride and that snappy corner to corner 850(2020) was a blast.

I think the 900r needs some time. IMO the 900r's(other than Mach) with the 880 ramps are heads and tails clutched better out of the box, and I tried to start this thread so guys with Mach's understand how diff the other 900r's feel on drive off, bottom, and mid. Since we have both sleds, and I even swapped ramps(see OP) we both agree the 880s work quite nicely. I still would like to see more RPM even on the 880 ramp sleds but my guess is those rpms will be darn near 8000-8100 after engine is fully broke in over 1000-1500 miles. So in essence those sleds are pretty decent. But as usual BRP clutches them still a tad softer then I would like being hard corner to corner rider. So a few tweaks are needed but nothing big.

Machs though are hurting with those 897 ramps, and I fully believe they designed then for LC. Which lets face it is just useless for trail riders. Cool gimmick though. Drop the 880s in and voila you got a much stronger 900r all around with no other changes. I am going abit further to accommodate the Ultimax, but that is just me.

In the end, the 850 is a great sled, however it is what it is...Taking that sled up to the Qc wide open trails it becomes boring and oil carrying ect becomes a pain. These turbos love to run the big trails and Im looking at this sled as I always have, potential in a tune or maybe now looks like standalone. I never rode my Winder stock very long, which BTW was a really boring sled stock, no snap at all and needed a tune and transfer mod to make it fun. This Mach while not perfect, does have instant snap bone stock, and hard pull bone stock, the lacking area is top end. So its sorts opposite of the stock Winder.

I know the 900r setup around 21PSI is a really fun strong sled. I rode the Hurricane riot tune which had killer top speed and massive pull, and so I know we will get there with a tune or standalone. The difference between these 900r's and other turbo long-term sleds I would consider like the Winder, is the Winder made by arctic cat only has one item that will last, that is the engine. The chassie and drive train will be coming apart in spades season one, and by season two they look 5 yrs old. Fast yes by all means! But IMO I will take the DOO for longterm reliability and quality, and once boosted up a tad and running where it can run on pump gas I see this as the ultimate trail turbo.

I still would like to have the 850 as my local sled, keeping one in warranty and trading every couple seasons. And can see myself leaning toward the Lynx Rave for its un-coupled playful nature.

Dan
 

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OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
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9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #425 ·
I ordered a XRS900R this year to keep, and was already plan on spring checking a lynx, just hoping they bring over the xterrain re turbo, if not a rave re. Keep up the great work Dan!
Agree, we have been watching closely at the Lynx turbo 4s. Really nice sled with transfer and post forward. If that does come to our shores, that may fill the Mach price point we are thinking. We will see.

Dan:)
 

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OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
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9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #426 · (Edited)
So finally got some long straights tonight and mine hits 8000 rpm and settles at 7900. Temp was 2 degrees F out. Sled has 200 miles on it. Hoping Sat to be able to do a top speed run. So this RPM issue seems not to be on all of them. Mine also did not come with an ECU so maybe they updated the tube????
Just to be clear, are you on a Mach? This thread is aimed at the 897 Mach ramps vs 880s, which most all agree the 880s are working really nicely.

Dan
 

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OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
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9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #427 · (Edited)
Man Dan.. I normally don't reply and appreciate your insight on sleds, but you gotta stop misleading people on the 998. Coming apart after one season? 5 years old by season 2? Come on. Mine is a 17 running 300 horse and never blown a belt. I have two 14 vipers as well and neither seem to be falling apart. They are actually great little sleds. It seems like you realized once you address a couple known items its a solid sled so now you are saying its the rivets that are the problem. (I've never changed a rivet in 6k miles) You are just embarrassing yourself looking for ways to feel better about your mach. Boring is racing 850's. I just use a dragy now and try to improve my own times as nothing else is close. The tech available on the 998 is impressive and fun to data log and make changes as you go. I've never had more fun dialing in a sled for the lake or trail. I wish the Mach delivered but it didn't. We've all been disappointed but stop with the misleading on the 998. You bought a dud man. It happens. Make the best of it and switch sleds next year. The Mach is no doubt a great sled. So is the 998. I don't need to bash the Mach to feel better about my sled that is for sure.
I must have rode mine harder then you??? Not 100% certain why your procross have been good but I know mine had rusted rivets after season 1, and when paint pops of rivets and are LOOSE, that IMO is not too good. That was after one season only. Now we do ride hard and I did pound that sled. I have rode every DOO just as hard, if not harder and the Doos look mint in every way after as much pounding.

Not sure why someone feels they know how my sled looked without even seeing the sled for themselves, I understand that you are a procross owner and dont like hearing these things, but for most who have owned them we know the shortcomings. 998 engine is top notch for sure, but the rest of the sled leaves alot to be desired.

Dan
 

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OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
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9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #428 · (Edited)
Fb showing a Mach and 2022 srx running basically side by side for all the haters. Seems some Mach’s are running well and some not.
Well we also had the NY shootout awhile back which was really close if i recall. I think the biggest problem is the top speed is not there, and much because the rpms are off. The other issue is when lining up with any 998 Winder, to actually make sure its not tuned. You can have a stealth tune on those sleds that is impossible to see on gauge if they dont have a cluster flash. Those sleds can be upwards of 225HP or so if I recall.

Also the SRX in particular is always gonna make MPH with the 1" track and lower suspension.

But I know two bone stock Winders(1.25") when new we never saw over 113.9 on ice in 2000ft here on my lakeshore. I went straight to tuning mine to get the power up to being a total animal. A bone stock SRX(1") though did run 120GPS on a road that I know of locally, so that sled does rip. And why I think the Mach with same 1" track and lowered suspension making them more apples to apples would be really close to that 120GPS mark, once the Mach is revving correctly.

Dan
 
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