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OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
If you read closely you will see the punctuation in my title leaves lots of wiggle room ;)

Everyone knows it by now, most Mach Z's seem to be revving too low. Other models seem to be doing a bit better with some more then others....today i was able to rule out some things.

Most here know the backstory, but I will briefly fill anyone new in.

Dano and I got new 900r's. His Adrenalin and my Mach Z. First real day out riding(lake only) he revs 8000 and settles in at 7900 much of the day on a lake with 8" fluff. My Mach same day only manages to rev 7600 for split second then settles in at 7500. This was a colder day around -15c(5f). At the end of that first day we both had around 50 miles on ODO. Needless to say the machine revving correctly would walk the other, and have an approx 5mph difference on top end(GPS). But the rpms are what this thread is about, not speeds.

Went for a 2nd ride the next day, this was all trail. Pretty much same thing, adrenalin revving correctly around 7900 and Mach revving 7500. Now at end of that day we both have close to 140 miles on ODO.

When swapping sleds as we do often, I could instantly feel the lower engagement, and how much harder it grabs the belt and moves the sled NOW! Mach with that flat section on ramp, comes in 'Soft' and sorta lazy IMO. This feeling continues to about 1/3 throttle. Making the base cheaper ADR feel much more connected to the snow, and also "quicker" down at the bottom.

So I decided to test his 880 ramps on the Mach, since all else is equal between these two models. ADR,X,XRS all come with 880 ramps while the Mach comes with 897 ramps. Biggest difference is the flat section at heel(engagement) which raises engagement rpm to help with Launch Control. Having the quick change ramp tool, and also the Pin removal tool from Chris at C&T Powersports made this ramp change a less than 10 minute job. Got it down to under 60 seconds to pull a ramp. Everyone with a pDrive clutch should own this tool!

Wood Bicycle part Symbol Font Metal



I removed the 880 ramps from Dano's sled, and today installed them into my Mach. I let the sled warm up(but not too hot) to approx 110f. It's a MUCH milder day today then the previous 2 days I rode my Mach stock. Today was -2c(28f) and my lake has some slush in many areas, but not deep slush.

On my road to the lake, I cracked it WOT for a quick shot, unstudded(still) track spun on my hard-packed/icy road instantly hitting 7800. Short road so it was just a quick shot. Enter onto my lake and I have a section approx 2000ft shoreline I like to run. First 4 runs back and forth, the Mach now revs to 7800 on the hit, then settles to 7700. Far better then the 7500 before(on a colder day). After about 4 runs I saw my temp was now over 180f so I decided to try the Launch Control. LC does still work with the 880 ramps, but in a far lesser capacity. It will only hold revs around 3k so not nearly as high and does not hit as hard. So this is why those Mach ramps are needed. As I suspected.

I like the 880 ramps MUCH better overall, from bottom engagement feel(even at 2700) to mid, to top. So I am very happy to have my Dalton adjustable ramps arriving soon from Chris at C&T. The curve on the Daltons will be much closer to the 880 ramps and no flat spot. I could care less about LC and Im sure I can always raise rpms with a spring if I really want later. Adjustables will allow me to add/remove tip weight and mid/heel weight to my liking, getting the Mach to rev correctly, and "IF" the rpms come up by some miracle, I can simply add slugs back into the Daltons at that time. Been running dalton adj weights in most every sled I have owned since early 2000s, another must have IMO.

NOTES:
I did check over a few other things today for peace of mind. I removed the IC to check the drain plug on front bottom corner(chain side) and was able to tighten that finger cap with a T40 torx about 1/4 turn, but I don't feel it was leaking at all...just was something to check for.(Thanks Phil!)

I also made note of the "play" in the throttle lever. I noted the Adrenalin has far far less play(likely due to no FAR cable routing), while my Mach has a fair bit. So when riding WOT I used my left index finger to press on the exposed cable, taking all the play out til it was taught, and not one single RPM change. So another non issue.

My takeaway is that Dano's sled while revving higher, was a colder day. And likely today he may have revved a tad less, i'm thinking 7800 rather than 7900. And for mine to rev 7800 and 7700 today with his ramps, I feel my Mach is basically where it should be. In other words, I do not think I have any boost leaks ect. I did go over all clamps and all are tight.(2nd time)

I honestly think BRP designed the 897 ramps all around the launch control, and did not pay nearly enough attention to the rest. Studying both these ramps side by side its plain to see they Mach has more tip weight and less heel weight, and so its revving lower on top. And the flat section at heel for LC IMO makes this sled feel very lazy. These will be going in a box as soon as my Daltons arrive.

See video below

Dan

 

OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Ramps arent the problem...
In my case the ramp change did alot. And most importantly showed me how much i HATE the Mach ramps and their soft drive off.

Certainly can be other issues, but this was a simple eye opener while waiting for my Dalton adjustables which I originally ordered simply due to the fact I plan to run an Ultimax.

Dan
 

OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Isn鈥檛 there xrs and x sleds low on rpm with the same ramps you put in your Mach Dan? Nice detailed video btw.
Most all the X, XRS sleds I have read about are around 7700 or so, which is where mine was at with 880s. So this made me feel better then the 7500.

It mostly seems the Mach are revving lowest, and easy to see with the tip weight on the 897.

Dan
 

OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I agree , why are some Mach鈥檚 running at 7900 to 8000 rpms with the stock ramps .?
I havent seen any Machs revving those rpms. Only ones are guys who have changed their ramps. Certainly might be out there but I havent read any. Seems most 900r revving good or closer to good are XRS or X, and my buds ADR is really good for revs.

Dan
 

OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
What did the non Mach run with the Mach weights鈥︹.??

I believe that would tell you if it is in fact the weights.
Yeah we would have love to do that but was not available today for that test. And one look at the ramps tells me what that sled will do with more tip weight.

Dan
 

OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
After my Daltons arrive, and I have sled revving right, it will be interesting to see if the RPMS rise as I pile miles on, or will it remain unchanged?

Will be easy to see as I have Danos Adr as test mule.

Next thing will be to dive into the WG crack pressure if the break in achieves no gain in RPMs.

Dan
 

OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #35 ·
I know from my 19 turbo, springs were always the culprit for low RPM鈥檚.
The Dalton ramps and weights will also bring the Rpms up , But if the spring is still week the same issues will keep on happening.

What about switching the the entire clutch from the Mach to the Adrenaline. ?
Absolutely could be springs, but all else is identical on these two sled's clutching. Ramps are a quick change without the need to remove clutch and split open and change spring.

I will certainly dive deeper into clutching soon enough, this was a simple fast test to rule out that my mach is far below other sleds. This simple test with the 880 ramps tells me my mach is right where others are for the most part with this many miles in ticker.

Dan
 

OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Thanks for the RPM update鈥︹ow what can you tell us about the Smart Shox!!!!! Lol鈥.yes I鈥檓 in suspense since my XRS has the dumb shox鈥︹..
Only got to run one day on trail, and they are thin here. So not really any moguls. I did get to hit some holes here and there and at this early juncture I feel the Smart Shox may be the best thing I have ever experienced to date. I used to constantly be off my sled to adjust compression, where now I just flip switch. I went back and forth from medium to firmest alot, and the best way to describe it is firm makes the sled feel incredibly "connected" to the trail, sorta like a high end sports car does. And I hit some serious holes with that in firmest mode and there is pretty much no way I will ever bottom that out, and I am full soft on springs and all blocks. Medium mode tends to feel much more "disconnected" from the trail, what I would describe as the "cadillac" feel. It does still keep sled flat in corners even in softer mode however I prefer the stiffest mode for when really riding hard.

I would say the SS are the high point in my early ownership. Obviously power has 100% of my attention right now and very little sleep, thanks BRP!

Dan
 

OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Did you check the secondary tension? Have a dalton on order?
Not yet, just one change at a time in my experience is the way to narrow things down.

Also, remember this is a compression secondary, not torsional.

Dan
 

OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #40 ·
For the question about the smart shocks you don't want them on sport Plus if you're riding real bumpy trails like hard stutter bumps as they are they are really stiff in that setting but 778 miles on it 3 days 90% of the time in sport mode hope this helps
Totally disagree Ken....I prefer firmest mode for our type riding. The medium mode is very plush feeling and abit "floaty" for me. Medium should work well for small studders for sure if you want that very plush feel.

Dab
 

OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #41 ·
If the 897 weights have to much tip weight. You could possibly grind 2-3 grams off the tip. I had to do that to my cfr 1000, had some d&d big dogs and could not pull them on top.
Absolutely. And this is why the 880 test means alot, as you can see the 880 tip weight is less then 897.

Daltons adj are the easiest way to play with tip,body,heel weight, and not destroy my stock Mach ramps.

Dan
 

OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #43 ·
The Daltons are nice and I have run them before myself. But I'm not sure about tossing $ out to run a cheaper belt knowing that Doos have been pretty dam good in regards to belt life over the years. Seems like your just trading $ in regards to the "belt" itself. Getting the adjustability of the ramps will be the bigger benefit in my mind.
Good thing the Mach only costs 18+k...
I think you missed my point. I always run the Ultimax. Never said the 571 was not a long lasting belt or a good belt. I actually think the 571 is a very tough belt. I just have been clutching with the Ultimax ever since Timken bought out Carlisle quite a few yrs ago. I found that belt worked so well on my plagued Winder that I have used them ever since. MY 850 got the ultimax right from get-go. Ultimax uses a softer compound and is shorter, runs ultra clean. Many things I like.

As for the Dalton adj....I always install them on all my turbos, to future proof the clutching, be able to dial in rpms and can do this in minutes any morning before the ride according to temps that day. And now that I have seen the Mach ramp, and experienced the soft engagement and bottom end, i couldn't be more excited for the daltons to arrive.

In the end the cost savings on the belt is not that much, especially when these sleds seem to do well on belt life. So in reality it's less about cost difference and much more about clutching my sled in the manner I have been used to. Ramps are also not a wear item like a belt, always more value there at the end of the day and not just monetary.

Dan
 

OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #44 ·
I would be ditching the doo primary and secondary springs for Dalton's before adding the Dalton weights. I would also take an 1/8" off that spring cup while I was in there. Run it in same conditions/air temp with spring updates only to see if the results are the same and if they are then throw the weights into the mix..
I hear ya...and Dalton springs will certainly be on the docket. Firm believer in one step at a time as the miles go up. Otherwise you end up with a box full of clutch components as many of us know.

Also will be working on spring cup at that point when I split the clutch.

Dan
 

OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #45 ·
Could you get Dano to bring a Train load of Dalton adjustable ramps to Muskoka
LOL, I will say Chris set me up shipped to Muskoka from him in USA. Guys think they are costly and sure they are not cheap, but Chris hooked me up and is my go-to guy when I need the stuff I want fast!

Dan
 

OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #46 ·
Ran my new 900R X yesterday for first time. 1.25 IR, not studded yet, cleaned clutches(scotch brite), tightened belt and track. Rode it easy for first 30 miles to break in belt and sliders. First time I wacked it WOT I see 8000 and holds at 7900. That was at around 50 miles on sled. Every time afterward I pinned it same thing, 8000 then hold at 7900. Never held it WOT for more than 5 seconds or so and recorded 117 on the dream-o-meter.
Love it! This is exactly how Dano's revs!

And you have the "single ply" track I assume? I have been thinking alot about tracks, as this is another difference in Dano and My Sled....lighter single ply, no studs making more rpms then heavier 2ply.

Definitely will be interesting when I do my studding, likely lose more rpms.

Dan
 

OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #47 ·
For comparison my buddies 900r xrs holds 8000 rpms when I rode it for over 1200' or so. He also said it was at 8000 all weekend for him. His has a 1.5" ice ripper and only saw 106 on gauge.
This seems to be the theme....more NON MACHS revving good, While Mach are low. And why this thread means alot in my testing, ramps are the difference, and also need to state what track the NON MACHS are running, if single ply this could be helping them.

Dan
 

OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #48 ·
I wonder if the guys seeing 7900-8000 took their belt off, cleaned clutches, and put a new belt on if it still turns the 7900-8000. I'm wondering how many guys have a belt soaked in shipping oil and are getting a few more rpms.
Its not a belt issue....I will say both our deflection was very low, and I adjusted mine first and still revved low, Danos revved perfect even with loose deflection.

Belts looks clean, perfect. Not a black mark anywhere on sheaves either.

Dan
 

OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #50 ·
Hey Dan, is there anywhere in Ontario to purchase these tools for the privet?? I'm located in muskoka area. This tool looks pretty slick! Thanks for all your research and posts on Dootalk & totally Yamaha 馃憤 great stuff!
IMO just email chris at c&t.....he will ship to canada much cheaper then most think.

Email here: [email protected]

Dan
 

OCD Sledhead
Mach Z 900R
Joined
9,345 Posts
Discussion Starter · #51 ·
the quick change tool was originally made by Goodwin
any real goodwin seller should have them us$80
goodwin also sells the clicker weight set for 900

Not sure if Goodwin is a DT sponsor?
And I would personally never use clickers for the 900r.

I do know Chris at C&T has been a long time DT sponsor and has set me up with anything I order, be it when I'm in NY or here in Muskoka Canada, he gets my email request and replies right away and things get to me fast.

Dan
 
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