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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The snow is deep right now , a bit heavy with a pretty solid base. My 16 T3 163 is bone stock clutching with the weight pulled from the pins, clicker 4 results in 7950-8000 most of the time. On longer climbs it is dragging down to 7,500 - 7,600 then it will start to shift and gain RPM but momentum is already lost.

Question is , I have a Purple spring on the shelf... is that too aggressive of a spring for the secondary? I know it would improve back shift , but the start force is pretty high... what would one expect as a result of running this spring?

Ultimately I will end up changing the entire setup... but I'd like to get a little improvement for the last few rides of the year for as little coin as I can.
 

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the pur/pur is a little stiff...

I recommend the doo black or green qrs springs...BJ
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
That does not solve the lack of shift ... all momentum is gone before it shifts. If it held 8000 top to bottom, it would climb far better.
 

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Metalhead
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16-163-T3.jpg

if you have the blue 160/220 then as mentioned, go to one with a higher final force.

Going from xxx/220 to xxx/300 will help the engine keep from drifting rpms that low for a certain amount of farther distance.

Say at 40mph track speed with the xxx/220 the secondary clutch is exerting estimated 190 lbs force.

Going to the 160/300, the secondary clutch will then exert estimated 230 lbs force.

If you were drifting from 7950 to 7550 with the xxx/220 spring then the engine should only drift to estimated 7750 from 7950 rpms. (based on rule of thumb [not law] 30 lbs increase = estimated 150~200 rpms change)

Im going to take a stab though, it will prolong engine speed for a little bit longer distance at full throttle and still the engine speed will drift low.

In the end you want the engine speed to recover and the track speed (whirl sound) to follow your thumb with less lag time - progressively lower the helix angle as the track speed increases.
 

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Great info.

My $0.02 ... My 174" T3 was finicky. I was constantly playing with the klickers, but never set past position 4. Then I set to position 6 it it came alive. It would hit the rev-limiter on hard pack if I really hammered the throttle but it played in the snow way better. As a bonus (or a big clue) the clutches also ran a lot cooler.

But I'm a cheap broke hillbilly. When the time comes to buy parts I will follow Joe's wisdom.
 

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attachicon.gif
16-163-T3.jpg

if you have the blue 160/220 then as mentioned, go to one with a higher final force.

Going from xxx/220 to xxx/300 will help the engine keep from drifting rpms that low for a certain amount of farther distance.

Say at 40mph track speed with the xxx/220 the secondary clutch is exerting estimated 190 lbs force.

Going to the 160/300, the secondary clutch will then exert estimated 230 lbs force.

If you were drifting from 7950 to 7550 with the xxx/220 spring then the engine should only drift to estimated 7750 from 7950 rpms. (based on rule of thumb [not law] 30 lbs increase = estimated 150~200 rpms change)

Im going to take a stab though, it will prolong engine speed for a little bit longer distance at full throttle and still the engine speed will drift low.

In the end you want the engine speed to recover and the track speed (whirl sound) to follow your thumb with less lag time - progressively lower the helix angle as the track speed increases.
great free advice!

i hear of so many people going out west and only changing pin weight not addressing the spring change. i think on his sled the 438 ramps or your mountain ramps would be a great help with t3 track.
 

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That does not solve the lack of shift ... all momentum is gone before it shifts. If it held 8000 top to bottom, it would climb far better.
You asked for a low coin solution man....

Have you checked bushings and arms for spec and binding in the primary? Is everything else like it needs to be?

If you've got the tools, specs and the knowledge, and money git'er done. If not, don't fight it, just click up.

Pm if your interested for setup info from the guys that made that last setup I told you about for your old sled.
 

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cheap and easy tune up for ALL summit 2.5 track and T3's...

Stock pin weigh for 6-9000'...pull pin weight for 9000' and up... use clickers as needed plus a doo black QRS spring (417127039) for 146/154s... doo grn QRS (417127137) for 163/174s...

8000rpm on dig tach...

20 tooth top gear for all 2.5" tracks...

its that easy -BJ
 

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attachicon.gif
16-163-T3.jpg

if you have the blue 160/220 then as mentioned, go to one with a higher final force.

Going from xxx/220 to xxx/300 will help the engine keep from drifting rpms that low for a certain amount of farther distance.

Say at 40mph track speed with the xxx/220 the secondary clutch is exerting estimated 190 lbs force.

Going to the 160/300, the secondary clutch will then exert estimated 230 lbs force.

If you were drifting from 7950 to 7550 with the xxx/220 spring then the engine should only drift to estimated 7750 from 7950 rpms. (based on rule of thumb [not law] 30 lbs increase = estimated 150~200 rpms change)

Im going to take a stab though, it will prolong engine speed for a little bit longer distance at full throttle and still the engine speed will drift low.

In the end you want the engine speed to recover and the track speed (whirl sound) to follow your thumb with less lag time - progressively lower the helix angle as the track speed increases.
Why not go to a 38* helix?
 

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Metalhead
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graham_r wrote) Why not go to a 38* helix?
Allow me to have some fun and expand on your 38* question.

  • Rule of thumb - Apply a helix angle required for the track speed you are going at.
  • Rule of thumb - 1 degree can change 150 rpms

Does he need a 38 degree off the bottom end?

163-T3 gearing.jpg

For sure he could select a lower helix angle at the track speed he's having engine speed drifting at.

What track speed is he seeing the engine speed drift low?

Does he have to change the start angle too?

16-163-T3 helix angle choice.jpg

If the solution angle IS 38 degrees....

then what will be the finish angle?

Could he use a 40 for the first half of the helix path, then 38 for the rest of the helix path? (40/38 split)

or

Could he use a full progressive helix 40/37 (40, 39, 38, 37)?

Both helix choice will provide 38 degrees at estimated 40~42mph track speed where 7600 is.
 

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Metalhead
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heh....i'll throw a wrench into the works and have the reader consider a step start helix. (3rd caption in the illustration)

Say have a step start of 40 degrees to 24mph then progress to a straight 38 for the rest of the upshift. This is like an "R" series Poo helix from the 80's. Tim Berg back in Black Magic days, Glenn Erlandson, (erlandson perf) and Gerrard Karpic (FAST) used to do these kind of helix configs back in the mid 80's. Many still do today.

16-163-T3 helix angle choice two.jpg
 

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Honestly, the best for coin is just to click up.
not necessarily depends on how picky a guy is :rolleyes_old: a QRS spring is only 30ish bucaroos
 

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the pur/pur is a little stiff...

I recommend the doo black or green qrs springs...BJ
I want a spring in between the Blu/Blu & Green QRS Spring :smile_old:
 

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I know, reading is for bundles of sticks........ Go read the original post. He said he didn't want to spend any money.

P.S., I'm tired as $&@# today from yesterday's ride.

attachicon.gif
20160330_104727.jpg
I was giving you grief, U to easy :) 30ish bucks is almost no money in sledding nowadays

I feel great today even got up at 4;50am, not bad for a old fart eh
 
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