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Its the tax $$$ going into the devolopment of the EVs I'd like ended. Its forcing a fake market/agenda at MY expense.

If they are better, and in some cases I see some advantages, let them prove it and devolope on their own.

Thats all - I like natural market developments, not artificial, agenda driven stuff.

And has been asked, so I'll ask again in a different way - why is even 1 tax $$$ going to the devolopment of EVs? What is the crisis and how are EVs going to solve it? If there isn't a clear crisis why are our tax dollars being spent??? If there is such a crisis my tax dollars are needed to fix it then show me the evidence of such said crisis and how EVs are going to fix it.

Just facts, not opinions - I'll wait...and seriously, I would love for someine to intelligently answer that question.
First, major decisions have to made everyday based on opinion and speculations. CEO's have to make decisions based on forecast and speculation. There is speculation is driving the decisions of investors on wall street. I had to order my snowmobile this year without knowing for a fact that it will actually arrive before the trails open. Politicians (ugh, just got bad taste in my mouth) are no different make many decisions based on opinion and speculation. No one has has crystal ball to predict the future and what it holds so it's unreasonable to sit back and say "I will only consider facts". With that said, and good plan or business case is built around facts and data. No one here is even close to an expert on the subjects we are discussing and no here really has the authority to change the course of how this goes. It's just a discussion between people interested in the topic and hopefully some of us take away some new perspectives or ideas on both sides of the argument.

I'll take a stab at the facts request even though the study and information I provided earlier to the cleanliness question was mostly ignored.

Facts:

  • There is demand around the world for electric powered vehicles.
    • Some regions aren't in our situation and don't have their own oil reserves (Europe, China, etc) and don't want to be begging for oil from countries they don't like.
    • Some countries have a very urban population and EVs simply serve big parts of the population better.
    • Some countries have a very green agenda and are willing to fork out cash for technologies they believe to be green (I'll take there money!).
  • Being a leader in new and emerging technologies creates good jobs, drives the stock market up, and creates leverage on a global level.
    • China is pumping government money into Chinese companies everyday trying to achieve this. It's not a fair playing field if our governments simply steps back and let nature take it's course.
    • The US government funding private technology development is not new or unprecedented. They have been doing it for decades with many positive outcomes benefiting all of us.
      • Doppler radar
      • The flu shot
      • MRI machines
      • Supercomputers
      • Microchips
      • LED lights
      • Hydraulic fracturing
      • GPS
      • The internet
    • Large corporations have and will squash competing new technologies that would compromise their own market position.

Based on those facts, my argument for investing in the development of EVs and associated technologies is that there will be significant demand and I want our companies and North America to be at the front of that technology curve because it creates jobs and drives up the stock market. I see money to be made and global leverage be gained by leading in all aspects of battery technology. I don't want the next Tesla to be in China.

We are already dependent battery technology (smart phones, power tools, etc) and I BELIEVE that it will only become more important as we go forward. Electric vehicles are just one piece of the picture. The battery technology is the real key though and could be applied across many markets and applications. I want us at the front.

Just my position based on what I believe I know today. No, I'm not an expert and don't claim to be.
 

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No doubt there is a curious demand;

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/13/gm-ford-are-all-in-on-evs-heres-how-dealers-feel-about-it-.html

These are the parts from the article I have an issue with;

In addition to manufacturers' ambitious targets, the Biden administration has proposed spending nearly $42 billion to build out the nation's EV battery-charging infrastructure

If they're being forced on us I guess we need them, but if it's so good why not let the market do this? Last time I checked the government wasn't building gas stations, private individuals and companies were. So why does the government need to build the electric stations? Then what? Who is going to run them? Who decides what the charges are? Where does the money go?

Plus, some EVs still qualify for a $7,500 federal tax credit, while states such as California, New Jersey and New York offer additional rebates up to $5,000.

Again, if they were superior why do we need up to $12,500 of my tax $$$ to promote them???

I'll also suggest the curious demand for them was not a natural event. I contend as more stuff comes out about mfgs going there people will naturally become more curious and warm up to the idea - this didn't happen on it's own, it was artificially created.

And one more time... What was the crisis that caused this artificial demand and how are EVs going to solve it? If there isn't a clear crisis why are our tax dollars being spent??? If there is such a crisis my tax dollars are needed to fix it then show me the evidence of such said crisis and how EVs are going to fix it.

And one last thing - what about the loss of the Cash Cow known as fuel taxes? As of today NYS alone collects an 8 cent excise tax, a 17 cent "petroleum tax", PLUS a sales tax on top of that. There is also a proposal right now for an additional 55 cent/gallon tax on top of that. What happens when that is all replaced by EVs???

I know, they've already said it - they'll charge per mile driven. More government bureaucracy and tracking - what could possibly go wrong!
 

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The main battery in my Hybrid is starting to fail. Fuel mileage has dropped from about 45 MPG to 41 MPG.

Looked up prices and the price ranges from $1700 to $2300 for the battery. Car is probably worth $6k as it sits.
 

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something else to consider (maybe it's already been brought up) when comparing how green EV's are is of course the mining of the raw materials for batteries and any fossil fuel used to generate electricity for them compared to the energy and pollution generated in the production and transport of gas, diesel, oil, etc. i think as the energy density of batteries inevitably goes up, it will be harder to justify how expensive fossil fuels are to produce and deliver.
 

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South Dakota rocked again as a wind turbine plant shuts its doors

https://www.facebook.com/dialog/fee...112.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=fb&tsrc=fbhttps://twitter.com/intent/tweet?te..._src=social-sh&soc_trk=tw&tsrc=twtr&via=Yahoo

Salena Zito

Mon, June 14, 2021, 12:31 AM·4 min read

South Dakota rocked again as a wind turbine plant shuts its doors
Salena Zito
Mon, June 14, 2021, 12:31 AM·4 min read

John F. Kerry, the special presidential envoy for climate, said only months ago that those losing fossil fuel jobs in coal and hydraulic fracturing will find they have a better choice of jobs in either the solar industry or as wind turbine technicians.

That was then. Now, a wind blade manufacturing plant located in Aberdeen, South Dakota, has announced it is shutting its doors permanently in less than two months.

The disappearance of Molded Fiber Glass will displace over 300 workers and their families. It marks another major loss of energy jobs in the state following President Joe Biden's halting of the Keystone pipeline on the first day of his administration.

MFG said in a news release that the closure will happen because of changing market conditions, foreign competition, and proposed revisions to tax policies affecting the wind energy industry in the United States.

Since 2007, the Aberdeen plant has been producing wind turbine blades. The plant will remain in operation for the next two months until it has fulfilled existing orders.

A family member of one of the workers said they were informed of the closure last Monday. Employees were completely taken off guard by the announcement. She was also perplexed by it. "They should be swimming in orders right now," she said.

In 2017, MFG threatened to kill 400 jobs at the plant and shut down because of the "proposed revisions to tax policies." At that time, Republican U.S. Sen. John Thune stopped the closure by pushing for revisions of the 2017 tax bill to be more favorable to the industry.

Thune, in an emailed statement, said it is troubling that at a time when wind energy is seeing record investment that this growth is not translating to American jobs. It's especially hard for those working these good-paying jobs in Aberdeen to face uncertainty yet again. Thune criticized Biden's statement from his address to Congress: "There's no reason, the president said, "the blades for wind turbines can't be built in Pittsburgh instead of Beijing." But Beijing is getting all the business.

Bloomberg New Energy Finance's recent ranking of global wind turbine manufacturers last year showed that seven of the top 10 wind turbine manufacturers are Chinese companies. General Electric, an American company, is first, but Goldwind of China is in second place. The study also found more than half of the world's newly installed wind power capacity was built in China in 2020.

Last month, Thune proposed an amendment to the Democrats' expansive energy tax credit bill, requiring the administration to certify that U.S. manufacturers would not be undercut by foreign suppliers using low-cost labor and creating higher emissions. MFG, in closing its 14-year-old plant, cited precisely these two adverse factors as its reasons.

One day after the announcement, TC Energy, the Canadian pipeline company that sought to build the Keystone XL pipeline, announced that it was terminating the project, a 1,700-mile pipeline intended to carry 800,000 barrels of oil a day from Alberta to the Gulf Coast, passing through five states, including South Dakota.

Although the wind and pipeline industries are different sides of the climate change coin, both were considered economic lifelines to small-town South Dakota. Both promised economic stability and a revenue stream that would keep many towns hopping until tourism hit its stride once again.

"We are a smallish community of 28,000 people, so 300 jobs is a big deal," said the family member of a worker. "Granted, two facilities in town, 3M and Banner Engineering, have recently doubled capacity, so most of the hourly employees should be absorbed by that," she said. "However, some of these people have been with the company since 2008. How do you start over after 13 years?"

It is a question that has been asked by many Americans in manufacturing jobs, who have had to compete with cheaper overseas products for generations. And it is a question many workers in the energy industry may be asking soon.

John F. Kerry, the special presidential envoy for climate, said only months ago that those losing fossil fuel jobs in coal and hydraulic fracturing will find they have a better choice of jobs in either the solar industry or as wind turbine technicians.

That was then. Now, a wind blade manufacturing plant located in Aberdeen, South Dakota, has announced it is shutting its doors permanently in less than two months.

The disappearance of Molded Fiber Glass will displace over 300 workers and their families. It marks another major loss of energy jobs in the state following President Joe Biden's halting of the Keystone pipeline on the first day of his administration.

MFG said in a news release that the closure will happen because of changing market conditions, foreign competition, and proposed revisions to tax policies affecting the wind energy industry in the United States.

Since 2007, the Aberdeen plant has been producing wind turbine blades. The plant will remain in operation for the next two months until it has fulfilled existing orders.

A family member of one of the workers said they were informed of the closure last Monday. Employees were completely taken off guard by the announcement. She was also perplexed by it. "They should be swimming in orders right now," she said.

In 2017, MFG threatened to kill 400 jobs at the plant and shut down because of the "proposed revisions to tax policies." At that time, Republican U.S. Sen. John Thune stopped the closure by pushing for revisions of the 2017 tax bill to be more favorable to the industry.

Thune, in an emailed statement, said it is troubling that at a time when wind energy is seeing record investment that this growth is not translating to American jobs. It's especially hard for those working these good-paying jobs in Aberdeen to face uncertainty yet again. Thune criticized Biden's statement from his address to Congress: "There's no reason, the president said, "the blades for wind turbines can't be built in Pittsburgh instead of Beijing." But Beijing is getting all the business.

Bloomberg New Energy Finance's recent ranking of global wind turbine manufacturers last year showed that seven of the top 10 wind turbine manufacturers are Chinese companies. General Electric, an American company, is first, but Goldwind of China is in second place. The study also found more than half of the world's newly installed wind power capacity was built in China in 2020.

Last month, Thune proposed an amendment to the Democrats' expansive energy tax credit bill, requiring the administration to certify that U.S. manufacturers would not be undercut by foreign suppliers using low-cost labor and creating higher emissions. MFG, in closing its 14-year-old plant, cited precisely these two adverse factors as its reasons.

One day after the announcement, TC Energy, the Canadian pipeline company that sought to build the Keystone XL pipeline, announced that it was terminating the project, a 1,700-mile pipeline intended to carry 800,000 barrels of oil a day from Alberta to the Gulf Coast, passing through five states, including South Dakota.

Although the wind and pipeline industries are different sides of the climate change coin, both were considered economic lifelines to small-town South Dakota. Both promised economic stability and a revenue stream that would keep many towns hopping until tourism hit its stride once again.

"We are a smallish community of 28,000 people, so 300 jobs is a big deal," said the family member of a worker. "Granted, two facilities in town, 3M and Banner Engineering, have recently doubled capacity, so most of the hourly employees should be absorbed by that," she said. "However, some of these people have been with the company since 2008. How do you start over after 13 years?"

It is a question that has been asked by many Americans in manufacturing jobs, who have had to compete with cheaper overseas products for generations. And it is a question many workers in the energy industry may be asking soon.
 

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Just rode an electric bicycle. Pretty nice if you live in the hills. Peddling uphill was just as hard/easy as peddling on flat ground. You can just let the electric motor do all the work, but I find it hard to not move my legs.

Owner says it can get up to 80 miles on one battery and he has two. He keeps one battery charging at his office and a charger at home. So he'll ride to his office, change the battery, and ride home. He could probably make it back on a single battery, but didn't want to take the chance yet. There are 3 long hills between his home and office.
 

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90% of the mines that you get the materials to produce these batteries is controlled by china, does anyone have any concerns about making china more rich and having them control the raw materials that your new govt mandated electric toy runs on?

You know like they did with masks when the shortages were happening, what could go wrong with that everyone wants china to be more powerful right
 

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Found this when surfing, kind of interesting but a a bit unclear on true cost of charging as this guy racked up a bunch of free charging points from Tesla. Still somewhat interesting. On top of the saving the world, looks like a lot cheaper to run than gas - if it fits your needs, I think for my wife commuting to work it would be good, and I think they have installed some charging stations at her work.

I wonder if any of these people ever forget to plug their car in at night? Might be a good excuse for being late or a day off. Seriously though, you can't really get screwed running out of gas in that way. Rarely does anyone run out, and if you do you put some in and good to go. " I ran out of power on my EV, I am going to have to get to a charging station and wait X amount of hours...hmmm. " "We had a power failure and I couldn't charge my car. " Could happen, even at this time of year there have just been some day long power outages nearby.

Electric power tools have come a long way and are amazing, but if you don't charge the battery or have a spare one charged you are dead in the water waiting. Run out of gas with a gas weedeater, fill it up and go again. Run out with an electric without a spare battery and you will have to plug it in and wait. Thats the thing with electric, though batteries are so much better. My kids have electric toys, I used to have RC cars, you use them, they die and you wait.

Its winter time, if I have 3 electric vehicles in the family. Where am I suppose to park them to charge overnight....just saying there are things to be worked out. Am I out in winter cold and snowstorms running a bunch of 220 extension cords? Don't forget my electric snowmobile that has to be charged too.
 

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My brothers wife had a hybrid, he said it wasn't terrible charging it - that was the good news. The bad news is it died and had to be towed so many times he finally gave up on it and gave it back - and had to give back all the incentives (tax breaks) too as he didn't keep it long enough. Yes, there are stipulations to those tax breaks. The dealer would have it for weeks at a time and never could figure out what it was. Other than that he liked the car. :lol:

As to running out, we were talking about that over the weekend. What happens when there is a pile-up in the dead of winter at -20F and you're stuck in the traffic jam for hours? How many cars are going to run out of charge? How many are going to lose heat?

How about the dog days of summer when one of the big pile-ups happens on Rt 95 when its 95F?

Batteries don't like temperature extremes.

Like you say, if that happens with a gasser (which rarely happens) just drop in a couple of gallons and you're all set. Good luck doing that with a battery car.
 

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I work on a Camry Hybrid, my wife's cousin bought it used and has had it for several years. He hasn't had any problems with it, and likes it very much. I like the idea of a hybrid a lot more than a full electric. I do realize full electric is perfect for some people. Will just have to see how things unfold.
 

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I work on a Camry Hybrid, my wife's cousin bought it used and has had it for several years. He hasn't had any problems with it, and likes it very much. I like the idea of a hybrid a lot more than a full electric. I do realize full electric is perfect for some people. Will just have to see how things unfold.
Friends have a Fusion Hybrid - theirs has been flawless, flawless to the point we considered one for my wife. Decided she really does need an Explorer sized SUV.
 

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The only issue that I've been seeing with my C-MAX hybrid is if you let it sit for 4-5 days, the battery that starts it will drain down. Had this happen on both my C-Max cars and a few friends that have other Ford hybrids say the same thing.

The odd thing was that I could take a battery booster pack and attach it to the battery. Wait 5 seconds, then take it off and then the car would start just fine. Almost like a relay got stuck between states and it took a jolt to get it going.

Otherwise, I've really liked the hybrid. A lot of get-up-and-go. The other day I got behind a double-hauler semi truck and he was struggling to get up a hill at 40 mph. I nailed the throttle and zipped around him in nothing flat and looked down at the speedometer and it showed 90 mph. Very quick.
 

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Time to look at the Explorer Hybrid. Have not heard much feedback on them.
Did they ever build an Explorer hybrid??? We need one we can tow behind the motorhome. Unfortunately only the 3.5 V6 is towable. Our current one has a 2.3L Ecoboost, it's flippin awesome.
 

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Did they ever build an Explorer hybrid??? We need one we can tow behind the motorhome. Unfortunately only the 3.5 V6 is towable. Our current one has a 2.3L Ecoboost, it's flippin awesome.
Yes. Came out in 2020 in Limited trim. 3.3L V6
Daughter has a '20 limited with 2.3L Ecoboost. Fun to drive and a beautiful vehicle. We traded our '13 Explorer in for an Edge two years ago since we didn't want to wait for the new body style. The Edge is nice but 2.0L Ecoboost seems underpowered. I usually drive it around town in sport mode.
 

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Thats right. My wife has a '20 Limited with the 2.3 EB, it's impressive. Her '17 had the 2.3 EB, the '20 seems like it has 50 more HP. I'm thinking the 10 speed transmission has a lot to do with that.

I looked at the hybrid when we bought this one, the $$$ didn't make sense for how she drives.

What we're up again now is the new Explorers can't be flat towed and we need something to tow behind the motorhome. The last generation was with the V6 - we've been actively looking for one. They're out there but as everyone knows the market is so messed up now I'm not real interested in paying the current prices. Looks like we might end up towing my F150 for now.
 

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90% of the mines that you get the materials to produce these batteries is controlled by china, does anyone have any concerns about making china more rich and having them control the raw materials that your new govt mandated electric toy runs on?

You know like they did with masks when the shortages were happening, what could go wrong with that everyone wants china to be more powerful right
Can't fault a country to surpass another that is continually held back by polarization. If your right hand continuously disagrees with your left hand, both will stop working. By the time you get any work done, the rest of the planet will have shaken their heads thinking it once was.
 

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