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For what its worth; my 2020 Expedition LE plugged the filters at approximately 6000km's, 10000km's, 12800km's, 14500km's, and 15500 km's. This is not looking good :) Besides grossly over charging for the dinky filters, I'm getting tired of changing them out. And with the reducing intervals I feel like I am getting cornered. Ready to try a filter system mod!
Where are you getting fuel, what fuel, and how stored? Is there the black gunk/particles reported in socks or what?

Just wondering if the check valve in the vent line is open and letting in a lot of dirty air.

Has anyone looked closely at the check valve deteriorating and being the source of the black particles on the sock?
 

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I'm still of the opinion that the weighted brass filter on the previous generation sleds would be a good idea. I am going to try one the next time I pull my pump. Having a pickup tube with no strainer doesn't seem like a good idea, but that's what the Gen 4's have.
Have you looked up anything on the size of particles that can be filtered for both types? Sintered brass has a huge range of particle sizes... so IDK how one can determine this. Not what is acceptable without doing any harm.

The 2 fuel filters in series idea does work to give extra distance if you select the right filters.. the first is a coarse filter and the 2nd a fine filter.
 

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2021 Expedition 900ACE SWT
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Have you looked up anything on the size of particles that can be filtered for both types? Sintered brass has a huge range of particle sizes... so IDK how one can determine this. Not what is acceptable without doing any harm.

The 2 fuel filters in series idea does work to give extra distance if you select the right filters.. the first is a coarse filter and the 2nd a fine filter.
I am just looking to filter out the big chunks, which I had plenty of on my first filter change. These chunks were plastic and melted when heated with a torch. The black fine gunk is still a mystery. By using the brass filter it should catch some of this before getting to the sock filter. I like to think that the brass filter will shed some of these chunks back into the tank as it bounces around in the tank. It has to be better than an unfiltered suction tube that NOBODY has used in any other snowmobile to my knowledge. Cat and Polaris has fine filter suction pods on their pumps.

BTW.. the same brass filter is used throughout most of the SkiDoo lineup until the Gen4. I'm not sure why they got rid of it. I have never changed the sock filter in my 2013 Summit and it has that brass filter as well.
 

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Its the fine fine black stuff. My filters are black at every change. This last time a thoroughly drained my tank through a fine screen; there was almost nothing after 15500 km's. If I get a chance I'll post a picture later of the screen. I've screened all the fuel going into the tank, since day one.
 

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Its the fine fine black stuff. My filters are black at every change. This last time a thoroughly drained my tank through a fine screen; there was almost nothing after 15500 km's. If I get a chance I'll post a picture later of the screen. I've screened all the fuel going into the tank, since day one.
Which part of Canada are you in?
 

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Just wondering if this is a fuel characteristic for crude coming out of certain oilfields Like the ones in AB, Canada.
I can't see that being the case, every fuel dispensing pump in Canada would have a 10 micron filter on the hose leading out of the pump, I think the theory about the tank plastic being the source is the best one, we have not noticed this crap on our other equipment or older sleds, only on these units.
 

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Roger. Just trying to find a pattern that might lead to something. IIRC, there was one comment earlier about this occurring for a lot of sleds in the poster's area.

There seems to be reports of both of larger particles and also very fine particles. Could be the same problem, could be 2 different problems. Knowing what particular problem is being seen and where might help. (But like the turbo issues, getting consistent reports from a large group on a forum is kinda like the problem of herding cats LOL.)
 

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I am not too often on the 2 smoke pages and wonder if they are having issues with these. I just went thru partzilla and they show same part numbers for 4 stroke and 2 stroke. Looked at part number for my 1200 and not the same number.
 

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I am not too often on the 2 smoke pages and wonder if they are having issues with these. I just went thru partzilla and they show same part numbers for 4 stroke and 2 stroke. Looked at part number for my 1200 and not the same number.
It's definitely a mystery. I'm in the camp that thinks it's coming from the tank or the plastic structure of the pump. I foregot to mention that I had no big chunks on my second filter, so I think the first ones were from manufacturing The black junk persists. I have a 2013 Summit that runs a similar sock filter and I've never replaced it. It looked pristine at 4000 miles when I had to fix my fuel pressure regulator. My gas vehicles get fuel from the same pump as my sled. My wife has put 400,000 miles on three mini-vans fueling up at the same place and we've never changed a fuel filter on those cars at all.
 

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Thanks for the info.

The fact that your cars have not needed filter replacements is a good sign. But it's not a complete proof of nothing being in the fuel. The amount of fuel consumed and filter area all come into that, plus the filter micron size and what size of particles the FI can system can handle.

What engine is your Summit?

I ask because one thought is that the FI systems are different and can work with different particle sizes. This could be due to different injector designs and nozzle sizes, and that may be driven by emissions, efficiency, or overall design and application. I notice that the 600ETEC HO fuel pressure is 44 psi and the 600 ACE is 58 psi. So they may have different filtering needs.

If the fine particles are being found in the filters after the pump, then certainly the brush deterioration/wear on the motor brush is a candidate. A change in pump design for a different engine system, and/or manufacturer, could cause this, and graphite would match the description of being non-magnetic.
 

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For what its worth; my 2020 Expedition LE plugged the filters at approximately 6000km's, 10000km's, 12800km's, 14500km's, and 15500 km's. This is not looking good :) Besides grossly over charging for the dinky filters, I'm getting tired of changing them out. And with the reducing intervals I feel like I am getting cornered. Ready to try a filter system mod!
In looking at factors relating to motor brush wear (which would put graphite particles in the cartridge filter), I ran across this article.

In one statement it says: "Low Spring Pressure: Inadequate spring pressure can cause rapid electrical brush wear. Clock and finger style springs tend to lose force as the brush wears, and all springs will fatigue over the course of time. This will reduce the effective force at the brush face and increase the rate of brush wear. "

This might explain what lledwod is seeing with his decreasing intervals of filter life. A change in the fuel pump would be required to get a fresh pump motor, and possibly reduced brush wear.
 

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Thanks for the info.

The fact that your cars have not needed filter replacements is a good sign. But it's not a complete proof of nothing being in the fuel. The amount of fuel consumed and filter area all come into that, plus the filter micron size and what size of particles the FI can system can handle.

What engine is your Summit?

I ask because one thought is that the FI systems are different and can work with different particle sizes. This could be due to different injector designs and nozzle sizes, and that may be driven by emissions, efficiency, or overall design and application. I notice that the 600ETEC HO fuel pressure is 44 psi and the 600 ACE is 58 psi. So they may have different filtering needs.

If the fine particles are being found in the filters after the pump, then certainly the brush deterioration/wear on the motor brush is a candidate. A change in pump design for a different engine system, and/or manufacturer, could cause this, and graphite would match the description of being non-magnetic.
800 ETec.. uses the same filter as the pre-Gen 4 900Aces, which is also the same filter for the 600 ACE and 600 Etec.

Moving to Gen4's, the sock filter is the same across all machines.. 2 stroke, 4 stroke, 2 stroke turbos and 4 stroke turbos.

I don't frequent any of the other forums on Doo talk other than this one and the XM Summit ones. The fuel sock question is never discussed on the older XM's. It never comes up. I don't know if the fuel sock issue extends to other Gen 4 sleds because I don't have time to run through all the other forums. I do know that it is a problem on 900Ace and 900Ace Gen 4 Expeditions for sure, and is discussed heavily on Facebook and this sub-forum.
 

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For what its worth; my 2020 Expedition LE plugged the filters at approximately 6000km's, 10000km's, 12800km's, 14500km's, and 15500 km's. This is not looking good :) Besides grossly over charging for the dinky filters, I'm getting tired of changing them out. And with the reducing intervals I feel like I am getting cornered. Ready to try a filter system mod!
I'd remove the sock and add a second line filter. Went you have issues just change them both and cut them open to see what they look like.
 

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I'd remove the sock and add a second line filter. Went you have issues just change them both and cut them open to see what they look like.
For stuff coming later, like pump motor brushes, then the line filter is where that will be caught. But it could all be coming from the tank area, and the sock or pump prefilter catches the large stuff and only the very fine stuff reaches the line filter..

Bottom line: I would not take out the sock just yet....unless you are putting a brass filter. with no sock, for stuff coming from the tank, then the prefilter.screen inside the pump may become the clog point rather than the sock for large stuff. I'd rather clean the sock than wear or replace the fuel pump.
 

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Discussion Starter · #80 ·
It's definitely a mystery. I'm in the camp that thinks it's coming from the tank or the plastic structure of the pump. I foregot to mention that I had no big chunks on my second filter, so I think the first ones were from manufacturing The black junk persists. I have a 2013 Summit that runs a similar sock filter and I've never replaced it. It looked pristine at 4000 miles when I had to fix my fuel pressure regulator. My gas vehicles get fuel from the same pump as my sled. My wife has put 400,000 miles on three mini-vans fueling up at the same place and we've never changed a fuel filter on those cars at all.
the inside of the tank is white and when I cleaned out the tank there was absolutely nothing in the tank.. my filter at 7k was black but not plugged and no residue to see. almost like it was washed out from white to black.
 
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