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One suggestion during correcting alignment is drilling the hole in the mag mount larger so the mount can be shifted. Any concern about the mount moving under load after this?
I have concerns about this and am very hesitant to do so. I have not done my alignment yet but hope it will not be necessary. If it is I may get it the best I can and call it good.
 

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Still awaiting to see any belt blower bein fixed ..be it with the help of gnr tool or whatever has been done theres is no confirmation of any belt blower ever fixed...I took a step back regarding gnr alignement...You know the dealer for what its worth litterally told me yesterday they cant find whats the problems.....my answer : well thats great just answer the same thing in court now....i hope people will be able to fix theirs but in my book if brp cant even make a belt last 200km on this turd .. nobody will be able to fix it...or the fix would imply me to spend nearly 2 grand ++ wich makes no senses on a brand new unit..
 

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Still awaiting to see any belt blower bein fixed ..be it with the help of gnr tool or whatever has been done theres is no confirmation of any belt blower ever fixed...I took a step back regarding gnr alignement...You know the dealer for what its worth litterally told me yesterday they cant find whats the problems.....my answer : well thats great just answer the same thing in court now....i hope people will be able to fix theirs but in my book if brp cant even make a belt last 200km on this turd .. nobody will be able to fix it...or the fix would imply me to spend nearly 2 grand ++ wich makes no senses on a brand new unit..
I'm going to be doing more testing in the next couple weeks to collect data and see if the specs I've come up with need any fine tuning. I also have a 2019 Summit 154 to test with and see how that moves. All the testing I have done so far has shown a reduction in belt temps. I put 100 miles on my 2017 renegade in the last few days and monitored the belt temp and it was in a good range. The primary is still warmer than I would like to see and right now the clutching is stock. I have a Laflamme clutch kit for the primary that I'm going to put in next to see how that works.

Gin la pine, I'm only 4 hours from you and would be interested in aligning your sled as it would be a good test to see how much it helps. I'm originally from Jackman which is right at the border and about half way in between us. I would be willing to meet you there if we can work that out and shim your sled at no charge. Let me know if you are interested, it looks like your dealer is going to try and do something for you but if that doesn't work out let me know.
 

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I will let you know for sure.. as you know it's kinda pending right now and if i want a new sled (because i believe they wont be able to fix it in a decent amount of time ..i.e second year already...) i must first accept all the help they offer and test it of course.... I will get in touch with you in the next 2 week probably...I would really like to at least have it measured if it can help the community....as for shimming mine i definatly wont...got in touch with the consumer protection office and a lawyer already ..nobody should be paying 20k+ and goin thru this it is not allowed anyways on my side of the pond..despite many people telling me i was alone on my end.....that is also good for the community...In a week or 2 there should be more snow and i should be able to ride 100-200km (i hope so ...its almost a premier for me so much snow so early...) Will report back and get in touch with you Tim.. i'm about 1h30 from Jackman ...

Oh and thx for the time your putting into this...whatever the result will be you will be able to draw a big picture of how inconsistent thoses sleds are built and who knows they may get inspired by you and change their method....
 

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Can anyone tell me if that front pto motor mount which is part of the secondary brace can be pressed out and replaced. Brp website shows seperate part number dealer doesn't know. Thanks
 

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Yes it can be pressed out and changed separetely. Both front and back pto rubber mount can be pressed out and changed separately.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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To update the progress on my report...

It will take me into next year to complete. The reason is because I will be making changes as I go and I only go on so many trips a year. These changes that I plan to make as I go have changed since BRP just updates sleds to the 2019 mount arrangements. I was going to record data on 2018 stock mounts, then shim those mounts and record, then put 2019 mounts on and record data, then shim those and record data. I think shimming twice is redundant because I would be shimming to achieve the same values no matter what. Plus since BRP just goes to 2019 mounts, there is little sense in shimming the 2018 mounts.

BRP Spec for my 2018 Ski-doo Summit SP 165x3 (Offset): (1.5mm - 2.5mm)

My sled was within this spec or very close to this spec with no load

I used the GNR tool and BRP straight bar (not the one shared previously) to put load on the clutches and measure alignment per BRP method.

Measurement with BRP straight bar loaded to 0.75" ? (-2.5mm ish) So what does this mean? BRP has the offset designed in to the alignment to account for the tension the belt puts on at full load. Great but there is too much movement. Twice as much as they expect actually. If they had the right amount of initial offset or if they limited movement better the offset should be at 0 (zero) when loaded. This is under the assumption that GNR and the 0.75" of load is accurate.

Next I will be putting the 2019 mounts in and recording data, then shimming those and recording data, then gearing down and recording data, lastly a clutch kit and recording data.

I am choosing this order because it is a cost progression as well and I want to show owners what the progression of changes can do for them. Also, BRP is not as dumb as everyone makes them seem. Inspecting motor mounts has been in the owner's manuals, in the pre-season checklist, for years.

Photo Dec 09, 3 54 21 AM.jpg
 

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Well, here are my results. New 19 850 X all stock Z 20.9, X 40.2 Y +2.6 wobble .024

Test 1

First 13 miles around the lake- Scorching hot primary- 190f primary fixed, sliding sheave to hot to touch, belt 140f , secondary 120F- blowtorch hot air on left foot (new 531, seasoned 391)

Test 2

G4 Engine Mount Kit part # 861805528

Installed G4 mount update kit, Part no Includes summit mag mount, 2 pto aluminum shims to go with stock rubber and cap/washer for the top of front PTO mount. Did not install rear pto shim Z 20.9 X 39.8 Y +2.6

Results- 145f primary fixed, sliding sheave cool enough to hold over 10 seconds, belt 115f, secondary 100f with narrow used 391, same test with new, wider 531, temps hotter, can only hold primary sliding 3-4 seconds. Still better than 1st 2 seasons on 17 850.

Test 3

Installed Rear summit PTO aluminium shim. Z 20.9, X 40 Y + 2.2

Result- Primary fixed 140, primary sliding hotter, can only touch 1-2 seconds, belt and secondary hotter. Engine loader harder, 200 rpm drop, C to C maintained under load. Black ring in the bottom of primary. Purposely only tested wide 531, Less engine movement is creating need for more X= QRS needs to be shimmed out.

Test 4

Machine down 2019 QRS shim kit from 3mm to 2.2. Installed Z 20.9 X 42.2, Y +2mm

Result- primary fixed 140f, sliding 110 deg, can hold bare hand on sliding with no limit, as cool as I have ever had any Ski doo. belt 100f, secondary 85f. Rpms still loading well.

2017 850 with engine mounts/pto brace replace last season, Installed the same mount update kit, Mag side summit mount, front PTO shim/cap/washer Z 20.4 X 40.2 Y 1.8 , also shimmed QRS 1.5mm to take X 41.7. Side panel vent/clutch guard update installed.

Result- virtually identical results temp wise to test for 4 for 2019, clutches cool, no rpm change as rear PTO shim was not installed.

Take home= If you want to help performance and drop clutch belt temps on a 17-19 850 129, do a minimum of install Summit mag mount and front PTO cap and shim- all that is needed on a 19. For a 17-18, if it is a belt eater open a case with Brp to get new PTO mounts/Brace. If it is not but you want to cool things down do summit mag mount, front pto shim/cap and side panel vent. Seems to work just as well without the fins on the secondary. Try to get your X to 41 range if you only do front PTO shim, If you do both target X to 42 range. Remember the 19 takes a different shim than past QRS. Currently there is 3mm, 1.5mm available and HRSS will have a 2mm option. Engine mount kit is $40, side panel vent 79, and QRS shims around $35.

If you want to maintain c to c under load better than the rear PTO shim will be needed with this approach.

I will continue to compare and monitor as season progresses and hopefully also compare to some with the GNR alignment done. So far with the old fashioned XYZ and BRP shims/mounts/vents very low temp G4 clutches are attainable.

Thanks also to Hrss- they provided measurements of some prior year models they shimmed solid and had good results. final specs here are very similar, just used Parts that are available from BRP.
 

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Well, here are my results. New 19 850 X all stock Z 20.9, X 40.2 Y +2.6 wobble .024

Test 1

First 13 miles around the lake- Scorching hot primary- 190f primary fixed, sliding sheave to hot to touch, belt 140f , secondary 120F- blowtorch hot air on left foot (new 531, seasoned 391)

Test 2

G4 Engine Mount Kit part # 861805528

Installed G4 mount update kit, Part no Includes summit mag mount, 2 pto aluminum shims to go with stock rubber and cap/washer for the top of front PTO mount. Did not install rear pto shim Z 20.0 X 39.8 Y +2.6

Results- 145f primary fixed, sliding sheave cool enough to hold over 10 seconds, belt 115f, secondary 100f with narrow used 391, same test with new, wider 531, temps hotter, can only hold primary sliding 3-4 seconds. Still better than 1st 2 seasons on 17 850.

Test 3

Installed Rear summit PTO aluminium shim. Z 20.9, X 40 Y + 2.2

Result- Primary fixed 140, primary sliding hotter, can only touch 1-2 seconds, belt and secondary hotter. Engine loader harder, 200 rpm drop, C to C maintained under load. Black ring in the bottom of primary. Purposely only tested wide 531, Less engine movement is creating need for more X= QRS needs to be shimmed out.

Test 4

Machine down 2019 QRS shim kit from 3mm to 2.2. Installed Z 20.9 X 42.2, Y +2mm

Result- primary fixed 140f, sliding 110 deg, can hold bare hand on sliding with no limit, as cool as I have ever had any Ski doo. belt 100f, secondary 85f. Rpms still loading well.

2017 850 with engine mounts/pto brace replace last season, Installed the same mount update kit, Mag side summit mount, front PTO shim/cap/washer Z 20.4 X 40.2 Y 1.8 , also shimmed QRS 1.5mm to take X 41.7. Side panel vent/clutch guard update installed.

Result- virtually identical results temp wise to test for 4 for 2019, clutches cool, no rpm change as rear PTO shim was not installed.

Take home= If you want to help performance and drop clutch belt temps on a 17-19 850 129, do a minimum of install Summit mag mount and front PTO cap and shim- all that is needed on a 19. For a 17-18, if it is a belt eater open a case with Brp to get new PTO mounts/Brace. If it is not but you want to cool things down do summit mag mount, front pto shim/cap and side panel vent. Seems to work just as well without the fins on the secondary. Try to get your X to 41 range if you only do front PTO shim, If you do both target X to 42 range. Remember the 19 takes a different shim than past QRS. Currently there is 3mm, 1.5mm available and HRSS will have a 2mm option. Engine mount kit is $40, side panel vent 79, and QRS shims around $35.

If you want to maintain c to c under load better than the rear PTO shim will be needed with this approach.

I will continue to compare and monitor as season progresses and hopefully also compare to some with the GNR alignment done. So far with the old fashioned XYZ and BRP shims/mounts/vents very low temp G4 clutches are attainable.

Thanks also to Hrss- they provided measurements of some prior year models they shimmed solid and had good results. final specs here are very similar, just used Parts that are available from BRP.
Awesome news! Very happy to hear you were able to get your 17 just about as cool as your 19. I will report back once i install the oem torque stop back in and see what temps are at.
 

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You lost 0.9 mm Z after mag mount and front PTO shim. Was that the motor dropping on the mag side or raising on the PTO side? Then you got Z back after installing rear PTO shim. Motor raised back up?
 

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Discussion Starter · #351 ·
You lost 0.9 mm Z after mag mount and front PTO shim. Was that the motor dropping on the mag side or raising on the PTO side? Then you got Z back after installing rear PTO shim. Motor raised back up?
No, typo- Z stayed constant at 20.9 the whole time- X changed some and y with with shimming.
 
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So my understanding as of now on the 19's with the G4 Engine Mount Kit 861805528 installed (at least mag and front PTO), you should align to these specs from the race manual:

X 41.2 ± 1.8

Y 1.6 ± .93 of X

Z 20.7

If you are running a stock 19 MXZ without any changes are the specs still?:

X 38.1 ± 1.8

Y 3.1 ± .93 of X

Z 20.9

It would appear the race manual specs are closer to the Summit alignment specs which makes sense with firmer mounts.

In my mind the engine moves under load and the sweet spot occurs at some point in that load range. If I were an engineer I would put that sweet spot where the belt lives most of the time. For me that is corner to corner in the woods, on and off the throttle. Racing on the lake, while fun, isn't where my belt lives except for the occasional blast across the lake or down a straight stretch. When we are checking our clutches for heat is it after some wide open pulls and then jump off and check? What about trail riding aggressively and then checking heat? This is where the belt lives. My point is, if we align our sleds for full throttle runs which for many consists of < 5% of run time are we hurting alignment where the belt truly lives? Maybe the motor reaches full movement at 1/3 throttle and sits there so it is the same? Just throwing that out there for discussion.
 

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So my understanding as of now on the 19's with the G4 Engine Mount Kit 861805528 installed (at least mag and front PTO), you should align to these specs from the race manual:

X 41.2 ± 1.8

Y 1.6 ± .93 of X

Z 20.7

If you are running a stock 19 MXZ without any changes are the specs still?:

X 38.1 ± 1.8

Y 3.1 ± .93 of X

Z 20.9

It would appear the race manual specs are closer to the Summit alignment specs which makes sense with firmer mounts.

In my mind the engine moves under load and the sweet spot occurs at some point in that load range. If I were an engineer I would put that sweet spot where the belt lives most of the time. For me that is corner to corner in the woods, on and off the throttle. Racing on the lake, while fun, isn't where my belt lives except for the occasional blast across the lake or down a straight stretch. When we are checking our clutches for heat is it after some wide open pulls and then jump off and check? What about trail riding aggressively and then checking heat? This is where the belt lives. My point is, if we align our sleds for full throttle runs which for many consists of < 5% of run time are we hurting alignment where the belt truly lives? Maybe the motor reaches full movement and at 1/3 throttle and sits there so it is the same? Just throwing that out there for discussion.
Yes, you are right to ask this question about what average load is the belt experiencing. For guys using the GNR tooling, you can experiment with load other than 0.75, if you feel you use less of the power (such as was mentioned above, "corner to corner "). I gave this a bunch of thinking before doing my alignment. I was actually considering using a little less load, perhaps 0.6. But then I remembered that gnr had stated they measured the engine movement and graphed it, and the graph showed the majority if the movement occurred by half throttle. So I used the recommended 0.75. Plus, I then chose a more compliant belt (xs821) so any remaining misalignment error would he tolerated better by the belt. My system seems to be working well. Belt runs cool, easily hold it in my hand. Secondary is cool, hardly any heat. Primary is quite warm, moveable can be touched for four or five seconds, fixed sheaves warmer still, hold fingers on it for two maybe. I'm assuming engine heat adds greatly to fixed sheaves. This should go down as engine breaks in a bit. 60 miles on, 2 belts broke in, performance wise this this thing is WAY quicker than my '17. I'm happy.
 

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So my understanding as of now on the 19's with the G4 Engine Mount Kit 861805528 installed (at least mag and front PTO), you should align to these specs from the race manual:

X 41.2 ± 1.8

Y 1.6 ± .93 of X

Z 20.7

If you are running a stock 19 MXZ without any changes are the specs still?:

X 38.1 ± 1.8

Y 3.1 ± .93 of X

Z 20.9

It would appear the race manual specs are closer to the Summit alignment specs which makes sense with firmer mounts.

In my mind the engine moves under load and the sweet spot occurs at some point in that load range. If I were an engineer I would put that sweet spot where the belt lives most of the time. For me that is corner to corner in the woods, on and off the throttle. Racing on the lake, while fun, isn't where my belt lives except for the occasional blast across the lake or down a straight stretch. When we are checking our clutches for heat is it after some wide open pulls and then jump off and check? What about trail riding aggressively and then checking heat? This is where the belt lives. My point is, if we align our sleds for full throttle runs which for many consists of < 5% of run time are we hurting alignment where the belt truly lives? Maybe the motor reaches full movement and at 1/3 throttle and sits there so it is the same? Just throwing that out there for discussion.
My sled with updated mag mount and only front pto shim/cap/washer did fine temp wise with an X of 39.8. It has seemed to be a trend for the last couple years that at least 1-2mm more X than BRP specifies is beneficial.

Stock engine movement under load would be less X- firmer engine with less movement needs more X. That is what I have seen, amount of Y could effect this as well. With solid engine and X of 40, massive black ring on engagement area of primary in 5 laps, QRS shimmed to an X of 42.2, 20 laps on same course, no signs of any black on the clutch an lower temps. Another interesting note, with complete mount update and shims done on both PTO mounts when run on a stand under load the engine drifts slighty to the left or Pto side. Engines run under load with stock mounts and shims tend to drift right to the mag side which would make sense with less X.

All of my testing was done circling a small lake with right and left corners, short straights on longer sweeping corner, all on an off throttle to simulate twisty trail riding, course around 3/4 of mile riding as aggressive as conditions would allow.
 
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Discussion Starter · #356 ·
Yes, you are right to ask this question about what average load is the belt experiencing. For guys using the GNR tooling, you can experiment with load other than 0.75, if you feel you use less of the power (such as was mentioned above, "corner to corner "). I gave this a bunch of thinking before doing my alignment. I was actually considering using a little less load, perhaps 0.6. But then I remembered that gnr had stated they measured the engine movement and graphed it, and the graph showed the majority if the movement occurred by half throttle. So I used the recommended 0.75. Plus, I then chose a more compliant belt (xs821) so any remaining misalignment error would he tolerated better by the belt. My system seems to be working well. Belt runs cool, easily hold it in my hand. Secondary is cool, hardly any heat. Primary is quite warm, moveable can be touched for four or five seconds, fixed sheaves warmer still, hold fingers on it for two maybe. I'm assuming engine heat adds greatly to fixed sheaves. This should go down as engine breaks in a bit. 60 miles on, 2 belts broke in, performance wise this this thing is WAY quicker than my '17. I'm happy.
In watching engine movement on a stand, most of it does happen in the 1/3-1/2 throttle range, my question is does it do the same with the track under load driving the sled vs. free wheeling on a stand?
 

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I put the GEN 4 Engine Mount update in my sled last night. Just the mag and front PTO.

Measurements before update:

Before I put in the G4 Engine Mount Update Kit I had:

X of 40.2

Y of 41.7.

Z of 20.9

Now with the updated mounts I have:

X of 40 (maybe 39.9)

Y of 42

Z is still 20.9.
 

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I put the GEN 4 Engine Mount update in my sled last night. Just the mag and front PTO.

Measurements before update:

Before I put in the G4 Engine Mount Update Kit I had:

X of 40.2

Y of 41.7.

Z of 20.9

Now with the updated mounts I have:

X of 40 (maybe 39.9)

Y of 42

Z is still 20.9.
The real fun is the back pto... once you ride it be sure to post something up about how it worked. I have a guy who wants to do just the above. Save time and it's his last yr on it.
 

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Old thread I know but I didn't find others topics that compare the static alignment method (Ski-Doo) to the loaded alignement (Grip N Rip).

My lastest G4 alignment, I've do both methods to compare. Do 28 G4 alignments last 2 seasons. 600R, 400 miles/belt at 1000ft elevation . X Y Z and tolerances are in the right of the sheet.

Just want to share. BTW I hope you solved your belt issues

167129048_10224386476359288_613949260237
 

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Thanks for sharing :righton
 
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