Ski-Doo Snowmobiles Forum banner
1 - 20 of 60 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
40 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited by Moderator)

3-20-21 UPDATE: The Service Manager from dealership contacted on Friday 3-19: "We have a running sled". Al beit 6 hours away in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan! :headbang

So out of all of the guys on DooTalk we have two Winners who correctly trouble-shot the problem!
@Dark Ice Hornet and @351c :worthy:

Dealer got new injector, that they double checked before putting on the sled, then the ECM took out the injector again. So they got another new injector and new ECM from BRP and it RUNS! :dance:

I understand why they don't change the ECM as it's a large process of reprogramming DESS but still can't understand why BUDS 2 does not pick up an error code of some type! So they put in the new injector and fried it just as Dark Ice Hornet said. So we at least, now know to troubleshoot an Etec. You don't even need BUDS 2, just common sense! I wish the techs could figure this out sooner!

Thanks for all the commentary. Now I need to figure out how to deal with BRP and the Extension of their Warranty. I plan on first speaking with the dealership owner on Monday before I speak to BRP. As I mentioned on my last post. BRP wants me to take the sled back before they can decide what reasonable compensation would be! Have a great summer everyone! Hope our new Polaris RZR doesn't have the same issues!

3-16-21 UPDATE: BRP Customer Service called me this today: They are working on the case and stated that is a defect from BRP. The part will be ordered. I assumed this to be the ECM. They understand that I requested compensation. BRP Stated that the unit needs to be back in my possession for them to consider compensation. Compensation will be based on how many days/mths its not running and still being repaired. I clarified that the date of drop off was Feb 20th, not Feb 22nd as the dealership indicated. Also, explained that the dealership is 6 hours away and that preferred not to have to buy a snowmobile so far, but the snow-check I purchased came in wrong from BRP. They also noted this in their records.

I'll keep you updated as I hear new news. Currently the sled has not run 30 and been at the dealership 26 days.

3-12-21 UPDATE: Put in a new ECM in and the injector was bad on the PTO side again. They tested injector - swapped with another sled. Apparently it was taken out by the bad ECM and need to put in another injector.

The rep never came in. So no discussion with BRP rep. They are now waiting for new injector.

Asked about warranty extension -no discussion had. He would have to discuss with owner as they are just service.

3-9-21 UPDATE: As explained by BRP corporate customer service this morning:

BRP is a manufacturer and therefore laws pertaining to warranty do not explicitly apply to them as a manufacturer, but only BRP's authorized dealers/franchisee's. I'm not a lawyer, but this doesn't sound legal, or at a minimum, not "good customer service" and makes me think I'm stuck with a turd, unless this BRP mgr steps in. BRP will not "buy-back", extend warranty beyond stated warranty, even though snowmobile was used 1 DAY! It is solely the responsibility of the dealership to come up with any reconciliation to extend warranty, reduce price or buy-back, which why would the dealer do anything on a snowmobile they just got off their floor and now have no additional over-head and/or paying interest on a product in their inventory? It's just costing the dealership more profit for anything they do additionally that can't be charged back to BRP as warranty. So to the person that said BRP customer service is good. They are not! All they've done is call me once and see if I'm satisfied, which I explained I was not and offered no resolution then when I called for an update to BRP Customer Service today, to find there was not resolution. I did speak to the service mgr at the dealer this morning as well. He informed me that the dealership owner and he would be discussing with the regional manager in Michigan this week. I've already contacted my personal lawyer and will be meeting with him later this week if there is no additional resolution. So as the old saying goes, with BRP products anyway, "BUYER BEWARE"!

3-5-21 UPDATE FROM DEALER/SERVICE TECHS: Sorry for the delay in updating this. Here's what's gone on. I'll put a list from the case and service logs the techs did at the dealership at the bottom of today's update:

Service manager from dealer called me Friday, March 5th, 2021 in the morning. Good thing as I needed some time if sled was running to start to dealer. Unfortanelty, more bad news. The techs received and replaced the wiring harness. Still will not start and seems to not fire up on PTO cylinder only. So that leaves the ECM and they won't change unless BRP tells them to, as this is intensive to replace, part is expensive etc.

For those with injector concerns. Be concerned. The 850 next to my wives 600R was an injector in the end. That sled had 250 miles on it (thought some of you would like to have an update on this resolution).

As far as our season, it's officially over. The groomers are not grooming and with temps approaching 50-60degrees here in Michigan and and 40-50 and rain in the upper peninsula, unless there's a miracle, we are done. Too bad, as my wife was really looking forward to enjoying her new sled. We are both very disappointed with BRP's quality. I understand many companies are having issues with quality during COVID, but we've had electrical issues with BRP products, including SxS's for years. Sorry to bash, but never had this kind of quality issues with other products.

Here's the dealer techs case notes from:

Subject No start Fault Code 1

Symptoms or Customer Statement Customer tried to start. turns over no start Fault Code 2
Test Completed &Results & Parts Replaced Found pto cylinder not firing, activated injectors PTO will not actuate. checked wiring harness. found open control circuit. replaced harness. still no actuation on pto injector. seems like its activated at all times. Additional Fault coded
Your Question Tried known good injector, changed engine harness due to open control circuit on pto injector. Do I need to try an ECM?
Case Resolution comments

3-1-21 UPDATE: Got a call from dealership on 2/24 and told it was the injector. On Friday 2/26 they installed injector and cylinder/motor would not fire up. So they believe it is a wiring harness, which they've seen several times, including two other 2021 Skidoo's in the service area of this dealership. One an 850 and other unknown. So we're waiting until wire harness arrives. We have filed a complaint with BRP and waiting for resolution as my wife has only been able ride one weekend and we canceled a trip due to the issues. Looks like our season is over here. Very disappointed, again, in Skidoo/BRP.

Another update this morning: Well they're gonna put in a new PTO injector! They called this morning and have one on order! Hope this is the fix. Seems too simple, but probably have to start carrying extra injectors like I had to carry extra relay's for all the years we've run Skidoo's

Little bit of an UPDATE: So we took sled back up to dealership as we were planning on riding this weekend. Still never fired up at my house. The PTO side plugs look brand new, both sets.

So I labeled all 6 plugs (I'll try and update with plug pics) and took pics of plugs. Yes even indexed, not that it matters. It should still run! Showed the techs, all four of the plugs not in sled, and what I had done and what I found. They all agreed that plugs are not fouling, sled not flooded, but the PTO was not firing either from lack of ignition or fuel or both. The techs stated there have been quite a few wire harness issues with the E-Tec's and was typical of what I was having issues with. They had a 2021 850 Etec in the shop next to my wife's 600 Etec with 250 miles on it. Same issue and had it diagnosed as a bad harness.

They also plugged in BUDS 2 into our 600Etec and nothing showed up. Prior to us leaving they manually tried to engage the PTO on BUDS and the injector did not open, which indicated either injector or more likely wiring harness.

I did discuss a few other things as other had mentioned on here. Fuses - have nothing to do with firing, timing etc. This is all from stator and controlled thought ECM when stator gives the signal to ECM.

They be contacting me this week to let me know their findings.

Again, Thanks for the replies yesterday in "600R" topic. I decided to move into a new thread in case anyone else has this issue during break-in.

I'll update what we've found so far at end of my thread.

Need Help - Brand New 600R will not start

  • Checked Fuel
  • put in heated garage overnight
  • put battery tender on all night
  • pulled tether and readjusted
  • tried jumping by over-riding/shorting starter relay
  • checked and rechecked connectors
  • only has 120 miles on
  • Yes - I checked DESS and Kill Switch
  • Yes - It turns over no problem. Just would not fire up
  • Yes - I checked for fuses and apparently there aren't any or relays that used to plague the original REV chassis.
  • Yes - I checked to make sure getting fuel.

Bought for my wife last Friday and ran/started fine. warmed up on the trailer last night. I shut off after it warmed up to get trailer opened up and unstraped sled to get off my trailer and it wouldn't start. Drug off trailer and dollied into garage. Really regretting giving into my wife and buying another SkiDoo/BRP product as I've had more issues with this brand than any of the others and I've owned them all!

So Glad I took to the dealership. Thought it might be an ECU or a Capacitor issue, but can't figure this out unless you hook to BUDS 2 computer software from Skidoo/BRP. Anyway the guys at RayC's in Lapeer (Jeremy, Bubba, Troy and John) hooked me up. The Tech Jeremy saved me a ton of time. No issues with electrically we could see. Apparently during break-in the sled is de-tuned, but also dumps a ton of oil mixture into the sled. This has caused some fouling of plugs. We think this is what happened and then for some reason the MAG side dumped a ton of fuel into the MAG cylinder and flooded. So the only thing we could do was change the plugs. PTO plug looked great. MAG looked fouled and fairly wet, but I've seen a lot worse. Jeremy was thinking that the MAG injector may be stuck. I let the sled turn over about 10 times, per Jeremy, but not sure this did too much, as the darn thing doesn't have a recoil and you can't really properly clear a flooded cylinder by shutting off the "Kill Switch" and just pulling the sled over to clear the fuel into exhaust. So you either need to let the fuel clear. I left plugs out on way home and put back in 80degree garage and installed plugs. Hate to say this, but I did use brake fluid as a final solution and got it to fire up. Only way I could get it to fire and clear the fuel! My other option would have been to "burn" it out - old school using a torch, but with the direct injection I thought was a bad idea. Anyway, I got two set of $17/ea plugs, or $68 USD of plugs! *%@!!?? and will install those in a minute again to see if the flooding is cleared. I'll update if I get it running.

Only advice I can give is don't let sled idle very long during breakin. The sled will turn off after 15minutes. I don't believe this is what caused the fouling issue, but as soon as the "Warming" Engine turns off, if you don't take off, I'd shut down, which is what I did, but I thing I just got unlucky. Plus it was very cold, below zero F this past weekend/week. I think with the break-in and cold temps just caused the MAG plug to foul and then flooded and compounded the issue.

Any help would be appreciated. We had planned on riding this weekend and was only taking off the trailer to put on registration, and mirrors and bags she wanted on it!

Thanks

Service .
Fri, Mar 5, 9:59 AM (2 days ago)

cleardot.gif

cleardot.gif

to me
cleardot.gif


Subject No start Fault Code 1
Symptoms or Customer Statement Customer tried to start. turns over no start Fault Code 2
Test Completed &Results & Parts Replaced Found pto cylinder not firing, activated injectors PTO will not actuate. checked wiring harness. found open control circuit. replaced harness. still no actuation on pto injector. seems like its activated at all times. Additional Fault coded
Your Question Tried known good injector, changed engine harness due to open control circuit on pto injector. Do I need to try an ECM?
Case Resolution comments
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
29,495 Posts
As soon as I read "warmed up on the trailer last night. I shut off after it warmed up to get trailer opened up and unstraped sled to get off my trailer and it wouldn't start" I was thinking fouled plugs.

The Etec is awesome, but they also like to move, especially when they're in break-in. Once it's out of BI and warmed up they'll idle just fine until they shut themselves down.

The other thing to keep in mind is next Fall, coming out of the summerization cycle. Don't just start it and let it run, start it and run it around the grass or first snow for a few minutes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
264 Posts
Put a fresh set of plugs in and index them, fresh gas and then go ride it! Don't even look at the throttle until the sled is warmed up 5 minutes max.. 15 minutes is way too long the sled will shut down on overheat. I really doubt you have a serious issue! No offense to you but the Etech 600 is one of the most dependable easy to operate snowmobile engines ever produced...your wife should be congratulated on her choice in sleds...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
386 Posts
I grew up on dirt bikes and in those days the fast ones were always 2-strokes -- that has made me paranoid about fouled plugs. Any 2-stroke motor in any device (even chainsaw, etc.) I won't start unless I'm going to do 2 things: 1) let it fully warm up at low speed or idle, and 2) get it "on the pipe" to blow the snot out of it (I don't mean run it abusively, I literally mean blow out the carbon build up from the cylinders which is like a stuffy nose).

For an e-tec, a simple stand for the rear bumper is your best friend. For #1 above, get to 100F or better. For #2 above, put it on the track stand, take off the parking brake, and whack the throttle a good three times to blow the engine clean. Then do what you need to but even then I'm not letting any 2-stroke sit around and idle for 15 min. Not worth the risk.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
210 Posts
I grew up on dirt bikes and in those days the fast ones were always 2-strokes -- that has made me paranoid about fouled plugs. Any 2-stroke motor in any device (even chainsaw, etc.) I won't start unless I'm going to do 2 things: 1) let it fully warm up at low speed or idle, and 2) get it "on the pipe" to blow the snot out of it (I don't mean run it abusively, I literally mean blow out the carbon build up from the cylinders which is like a stuffy nose).

For an e-tec, a simple stand for the rear bumper is your best friend. For #1 above, get to 100F or better. For #2 above, put it on the track stand, take off the parking brake, and whack the throttle a good three times to blow the engine clean. Then do what you need to but even then I'm not letting any 2-stroke sit around and idle for 15 min. Not worth the risk.
We do every single day we ride in the morning. Never have issues. My 2020 rarely gets above 96 at idle either. I hate hearing issues but it seems pretty rare but this is the internet. Glad op got it going.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
569 Posts
New 2 stroke sled, during break in period (only 120miles on it, and extra fueling), let to idle for a period of time, and then shut down without clearing it out. Sounds like alot of fuel build up on the plugs, fouling them. Change the plugs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
40 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Possibly, but you would think hooking up to Buds 2 at the dealership last night would show this. It almost seems, as the tech said. the injector is stuck and only flooding one cylinder. It's really strange that 3 sets of plugs later, still same problem.

I've heard of a few coil failures in the 21s.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
40 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks. On my 3rd set now and still won't start. I'm heading out in a few to index another set and try again. Just F'ed up a weekend of riding where we've only had two weeks this year!

New 2 stroke sled, during break in period (only 120miles on it, and extra fueling), let to idle for a period of time, and then shut down without clearing it out. Sounds like alot of fuel build up on the plugs, fouling them. Change the plugs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,289 Posts
Possibly, but you would think hooking up to Buds 2 at the dealership last night would show this. It almost seems, as the tech said. the injector is stuck and only flooding one cylinder. It's really strange that 3 sets of plugs later, still same problem.
Did you check to see if there was a spark at the plugs before you installed in the cylinders? If no spark then new plugs won't help.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,263 Posts
I'm still reeling over the complaint of the cost of plugs but you run the heat at 80 in a garage. I hope its a wood burner.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,289 Posts
silly question but why are you even dealing with this? brand new sled should still be under warranty
I suspect he is trying to save the weekend ride, and if it goes to the dealer that is probably out the window, they probably won't get to it until next week and it should be a simple fix. But hard to keep track of on two different threads.. for same issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
569 Posts
If it's fouled plugs due to extended idle time during the break in period where extra oil is injected, to protect the motor, I don't know how that could be a warranty issue. It's a 2 stroke, you can't just put them away wet like that, they load up, and need cleared out.

Either way, I hope it's just fouled plugs for the OP's sake. Sure sounds like it to me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,289 Posts
If it's fouled plugs due to extended idle time during the break in period where extra oil is injected, to protect the motor, I don't know how that could be a warranty issue. It's a 2 stroke, you can't just put them away wet like that, they load up, and need cleared out.

Either way, I hope it's just fouled plugs for the OP's sake. Sure sounds like it to me.
Must have gotten it started and gone north to ride. Since he has not updated this!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
569 Posts
Must have gotten it started and gone north to ride. Since he has not updated this!
Sure hope so. Get them miles on.
 
  • Like
Reactions: djm

·
Registered
Joined
·
40 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Exactly what I think, but dealer I purchased from is 6 hours away, but close to where we snowmobile. I really didn't want to deal with, but the fact that it kinda easy to replace the plugs, just to start with was easier than driving 6 hours to find it might be just plugs. The fact it wouldn't fire up had me concerned something more major was wrong. So I changed the plugs myself and I was right. There is a bigger problem that I'll explain later above

silly question but why are you even dealing with this? brand new sled should still be under warranty
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
40 Posts
Funny. Could care less about the price of plugs or heating my garage. What about the price of a $12,000 sled I just bought for my wife as a surprise and doesn't run 3 days after I give it to her! You missed the point. Complaining about a new sled from BRP, again not running! BTW. was a good thing I took sled to dealer with me to pick up the plugs, as the BRP website indicates a PFR7AB Plug. PFR7AB's don't even come close to fitting. The correct plug is a ILKR8Q7, which aren't easy to come by and my closest dealer is 45 minutes from my house.

I'm still reeling over the complaint of the cost of plugs but you run the heat at 80 in a garage. I hope its a wood burner.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
40 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Sure hope so. Get them miles on.
Two sets of fresh Plugs - would not start. REC Fuel. All I use. Sometimes put a little StarTron is to make sure no condensation. Sled has an indication that "Warming". Sled was turned off after "Warming" went off. Just like my Polaris and Yamaha Nytro before that and just like I've done every sled for the last 30years. Wish your doubts were correct, but the techs agree it's a larger issue. BTW. The 600 Etec shutdown automatically after 15 minutes idling. Same as my Polaris.

Put a fresh set of plugs in and index them, fresh gas and then go ride it! Don't even look at the throttle until the sled is warmed up 5 minutes max.. 15 minutes is way too long the sled will shut down on overheat. I really doubt you have a serious issue! No offense to you but the Etech 600 is one of the most dependable easy to operate snowmobile engines ever produced...your wife should be congratulated on her choice in sleds...
 
1 - 20 of 60 Posts
Top