The 2014 600 carb needles worked nice in my 600ho for a test/season

Had them dropped .030 and the stock 380s,,I have 2 extra sets of carbs

 

Had a chance to run it a little before I stored it away. Granted it was not winter conditions by far but it did run well. Much cleaner idle. But I expected that. I have a 2016 and the 06 now runs a lot like it. As it should. Looking forward to a good winter next year

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What plugs does the 16 run?

 

I'm glad you started this, I just got a 07 500ss and have poured over the hundreds of threads. P.O. ran br10ecs plugs. Should I just move the needle up one clip and turn fuel up 1/4 turn. Or is changing the jetting a must? Sorry not trying g to hijack.

 

Carbs have a wonderful advantage over the fuel injection. Change the main jet to to increase the fuel in the mid to high midrange and full throttle, and change the needle position to increase the fuel in the low to high midrange. Change the needle taper to change the fuel in a particular midrange area and everything is set.

The only problem is not knowing how much the DPM adjusts the air/fuel across the full range. This is the great unknown. If you can measure this than you are ahead. If not, then you are stuck taking readings from the plugs at every possible rpm/load range. While I have always been a fan of plug readings, I've been against getting off of a sled repetitively on a trail with the inside panel open to incoming traffic to check plug readings when it is not necessary.

 

What plugs does the 16 run?

The 16 runs BR9ECS. No -5. This would be the wider gap. The 06 runs the -5s. 0.18 gap. The plug change was made with the head change in 2012. The new head eliminates hot spots and reduces risk of detonation thus allowing the wider hotter gap.

I've stuck with the -5s in the 06 even with the new jetting due to the old head design.

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I'm glad you started this, I just got a 07 500ss and have poured over the hundreds of threads. P.O. ran br10ecs plugs. Should I just move the needle up one clip and turn fuel up 1/4 turn. Or is changing the jetting a must? Sorry not trying g to hijack.

It's all good there express. You can just raise the needle one notch, do nothing else and you'll be good. You will greatly reduce the lean mid range and risk of burn down. No need to mess with pilot screws or jets. If you want to get fancy you can leave the needle in the middle and shim. But it's not necessary.

The downside to just raising the needle one notch is minimal but the motor will run rich up until 3/4 throttle and up where it will lean out to normal. Basically it will run rich for 99% of the riding you will do. It will use a little more gas. But not bad. And it just runs a little dirty if you know what I mean. Kinda like the two strokes of old.

It didn't bother me a bit until I got my 16 and noticed just how clean this motor can be tuned to run and not run lean. That being said, there were no noticeable performance issues running it rich. It pulled like a beast just as well. AND I have yet to real world test the new jetting on the 06. Just a couple of warm weather runs on the grass.

Stay tuned

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Carbs have a wonderful advantage over the fuel injection. Change the main jet to to increase the fuel in the mid to high midrange and full throttle, and change the needle position to increase the fuel in the low to high midrange. Change the needle taper to change the fuel in a particular midrange area and everything is set.

The only problem is not knowing how much the DPM adjusts the air/fuel across the full range. This is the great unknown. If you can measure this than you are ahead. If not, then you are stuck taking readings from the plugs at every possible rpm/load range. While I have always been a fan of plug readings, I've been against getting off of a sled repetitively on a trail with the inside panel open to incoming traffic to check plug readings when it is not necessary.

These motors do not run DPM controlled carbs. Straight up TM flat slides with bowl vents to atmosphere. So no worries there.

I like carbs on sleds for my personal use. For me I don't like complexity and cost in a sled. That's why I love these motors and bought a new 2016. However I do have to say though that cost aside, fuel injection wins hands down over a carb any day. Fuel injection always has the absolute correct mix no matter what the temps and pressure is and tuning EFI fuel maps is a breeze. Don't even get your hands dirty. But it's expensive. Where I can cost justify it tho I will go injection every time. I have spent countless hours and dollars this spring on carburetors on some of my equipment. I know if it were injected I wouldn't have nor would I have had the downtime. All my stuff that's EFI just keeps running fine and I never change spark plugs in that stuff.

Not bashing you just disagreeing.

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I have read that BRP changed the plug for the 500ss to BR10ecs.

 

It's all good there express. You can just raise the needle one notch, do nothing else and you'll be good. You will greatly reduce the lean mid range and risk of burn down. No need to mess with pilot screws or jets. If you want to get fancy you can leave the needle in the middle and shim. But it's not necessary.

The downside to just raising the needle one notch is minimal but the motor will run rich up until 3/4 throttle and up where it will lean out to normal. Basically it will run rich for 99% of the riding you will do. It will use a little more gas. But not bad. And it just runs a little dirty if you know what I mean. Kinda like the two strokes of old.

It didn't bother me a bit until I got my 16 and noticed just how clean this motor can be tuned to run and not run lean. That being said, there were no noticeable performance issues running it rich. It pulled like a beast just as well. AND I have yet to real world test the new jetting on the 06. Just a couple of warm weather runs on the grass.

Stay tuned

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Thanks wabash appreciate the info, I'll move the clip and just run the 10ecs plugs and if I start fouling them I'll just switch over the 9ecs.

 

My 2010 stock settings is 420 with the 9CEY02 needle but I'm thinking that might be a little fat as stock jetting usually seems to be. Hoping I'll be able to get by with running 400s?

 

These motors do not run DPM controlled carbs. Straight up TM flat slides with bowl vents to atmosphere. So no worries there.

I like carbs on sleds for my personal use. For me I don't like complexity and cost in a sled. That's why I love these motors and bought a new 2016. However I do have to say though that cost aside, fuel injection wins hands down over a carb any day. Fuel injection always has the absolute correct mix no matter what the temps and pressure is and tuning EFI fuel maps is a breeze. Don't even get your hands dirty. But it's expensive. Where I can cost justify it tho I will go injection every time. I have spent countless hours and dollars this spring on carburetors on some of my equipment. I know if it were injected I wouldn't have nor would I have had the downtime. All my stuff that's EFI just keeps running fine and I never change spark plugs in that stuff.

Not bashing you just disagreeing.

On the bold, not disagreeing, just agreeing :cool_old:

I like your take on things - decisive and pragmatic. The Evinrude ETEC and ETEC G2 is what I'm looking into at the moment. Some of these owners are pretty intense into finding why they blow Powerheads! And I mean in a good way. The funny thing about two strokes, there is only half the time to cool things down, so only half the time to make things go right.

Ever heard of folks referring to two strokes 4 stroking? For the life of me I could not understand on what planet their lingo came from because they would never offer an explanation. Better yet it gets more complicated with 6 or 8 stoking. I hate it when folks come out with this crazy stuff that is supposed to make sense and it doesn't to me. It drives me bananas until I figure it out and then folks complain that I over complicate things. What a vicious circle!

You have a good explanation between the carb and injectors that I can relate to. And thanks or the non DPM explanation for the 500SS. I spent too much time this past season drawing electrical diagrams for the 500SS on DooTalk to even notice it had no DPM. Like others have said, I'm glad you started this topic. I took at look a this topic and wondered if it could bridge the gap between carbs and injection. I like to think it can be done since I still work on carbs.

My argument is that carbs are relatively precise meeting tools, so we should be able to determine a change in the different rpm and load range with a change in needle and main jet.

 

On the bold, not disagreeing, just agreeing :cool_old:

I like your take on things - decisive and pragmatic. The Evinrude ETEC and ETEC G2 is what I'm looking into at the moment. Some of these owners are pretty intense into finding why they blow Powerheads! And I mean in a good way. The funny thing about two strokes, there is only half the time to cool things down, so only half the time to make things go right.

Ever heard of folks referring to two strokes 4 stroking? For the life of me I could not understand on what planet their lingo came from because they would never offer an explanation. Better yet it gets more complicated with 6 or 8 stoking. I hate it when folks come out with this crazy stuff that is supposed to make sense and it doesn't to me. It drives me bananas until I figure it out and then folks complain that I over complicate things. What a vicious circle!

You have a good explanation between the carb and injectors that I can relate to. And thanks or the non DPM explanation for the 500SS. I spent too much time this past season drawing electrical diagrams for the 500SS on DooTalk to even notice it had no DPM. Like others have said, I'm glad you started this topic. I took at look a this topic and wondered if it could bridge the gap between carbs and injection. I like to think it can be done since I still work on carbs.

My argument is that carbs are relatively precise meeting tools, so we should be able to determine a change in the different rpm and load range with a change in needle and main jet.

Thanks there Dagg. Yes two strokes 4 stroking is a real thing and a sign of a good tune. If you can get it to 4 stroke a little on light load light throttle then you know you're cooling things off a little. However I think the engineers have learned a lot with SDI and ETec which has helped them better tune the carbs on the old 597 ( or is it 593?) too many numbers in my head. Anyway they have done a fantastic job of tuning the carbs on these motors. All the while keeping them reasonably versatile and still bullet proof.

In the case of Mikuni round and flat slide carbs I think you're right. These can be tuned very well. Also I've been impressed how well of tune you can get with an old Mikuni BN. I have a couple old Sea Doos with Rotax 657s in them running dual BN carbs. Theses things run very consistent and the throttle response is tight. And these carbs seem to be tough. Not many issues with them as long as you use Oem Mikuni parts. On the other hand a Mikuni CV carb is a real pill. Haven't seen one yet that didn't have some kind of weird notion. Totally confusing and near impossible to tune right. And they don't age well. Just took one off a 15 yr old ATV and threw it in the scrap pile. Replaced it with a new $100 China knock off and the quad runs better than it ever has. For how long who knows but for $100 you can't pass it up. I've also battled carbs on all my lawn care equipment. Prob could've made a good down payment on some new stuff with what I spent on carbs and rebuild kits this spring. I will for sure be looking at EFI on my next equipment purchase.

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UPDATE. Got several miles on the new carb set up. Read above for set up. Here's what I found. First off I had to raise the needles one notch they are now on the lowest notch or richest notch. It was just too lean and just slightly boggy. Some people prob wouldn't notice but didn't sound right to me. Much better at the new needle setting. The bigger issue though I that I have hanging idle really bad. Takes a full on choke for about a second to bring her down. I say this is a problem but actually this is a learning here and I think this points to the head and why they changed head design in 12. My two new sleds with the new head run this same carb set up BUT with leaner 390 mains and middle notch on the needle and every once in a great while I'll get a very slight idle hang that comes down in a second or two. So what's up with the head? The new head if you look at it is actually an etec head. It has the bosses cast into it where the injectors would mount. But more importantly this etec head is not a water bath head like the typical Rotax it has cast in water passages designed specifically to cool the head more effectively with higher coolant velocity and thus eliminate hot spots. This was necessary for the etec because it is run at very lean mixture all the time. I guess they figured out if they were going to tune for lean jetting on the 597 they needed the new head. Etec taught them something. Now to fix this issue I'm going to try a couple different things. First I'm going to try br10ecs plugs. This is the plug specified for the 2010 and 2011 models which have the updated jetting with the old head. Since the indicated cause for hanging idle is high combustion chamber temps this has a chance for working. Next would be to try 20 pilots. Otherwise the sled runs clean and crisp and actually seems to have picked up some midrange response if that's possible. Still needs a slight open throttle to start when warm but doesn't seem to be as bad as before.

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I have an 05 500ss. My idle was hanging too. ((Think the idle was kinda high to provide great start up and be able to go into reverse while cold)). I turned mine way down . At start up I may feather the gas a tad. I also give a touch of throttle going into reverse. But it settles down way better. It's getting less air at idle so it is fatter. Give it a try. Seems it helped the mid range jumpy ness for whatever reason. Sounds like your having fun. Good luck

 

Yeah burrito that came to mind. I always set the slides per the book with the drill bit and I had to fiddle with the idle this fall on this machine not knowing I had a partially gummed up pilot jet. Another story. So the idle is not where it should be. Carbs are coming out tomorrow and reset to spec on the bench. Throwing in the BR10ECS plugs and try it out. We got a little snow I can test with.

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Fellas - I threw a post up in the mxz shorty section. Bought these quad flow torque wing things and installed. Hanging idle is pretty much gone and I'm back to stock jetting settings. It requires opening up the wallet but it worked. Dude knocked $50 off through end of month. I'm an hour away from my sled so I'll ride some more this weekend and report back. Just my 2 cents

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This seasons plan for this sled is to return to the original needle a 9DGM15 and original mains 360 with the needles one notch rich. I couldn't overcome the hanging idle with the 9CEY02 needles.

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Is there a disconnect between the needle size and the cause for the hanging idle? Something seems off to me.

 

I think the key is the head design and hot spots in the head. With the new head the updated jetting works fine with only a hint of hanging idle. Trying the updated jetting with the old head design made it worse. The jetting tried was what was run stock in 2010 and 2011 which was the old head which would say that those years suffered badly from hanging idle and may be partly what prompted Ski Doo to look into a new head. So after my little experiment here I think what I've learned is the head is the key and allows the change in jetting. So now how do you update to the new head? Hmmmm. Hose routing is different. Is it really worth it tho?

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I always assumed hanging idle was because of sloppy worn internal linkage bushings in the carb. I had it badly, but shims and repositioning of the plates helped a lot.

 

The root cause is the fact of having 44mm carbs on a 600 cc motor. Combined with an inherent issue with flat slides at low throttle positions. The air flow after it passes under the slide looses velocity on the back side of the slide letting fuel droplets fall out of the air flow which causes a lean condition as the motor is coming down in revs. A real fix is the inserts into the carb bore that keeps the air fuel velocity up after it passes under the slide at low slide position. Now this does nothing to explain why a different head makes hanging idle go away other than maybe the different head causes the burn to act differently under lean conditions. All I know is that running the same jetting but with two different heads, the motors do not run the same so there's some significance to the head. With the old head you have to jet it like the old days. Keep the mid range richened up. The older 597s I think would respond well to a VM round slide like maybe twin VM 38s. I have a Series II 499 I think it's called, it's the 500cc Series II that came out in 2001. It has twin VM 38s and it runs super nice. Pretty much every motor I've had with VMs has ran nice. Never had to open the throttle to get them started hot. Just tug on the rope and off there'd go. We always knew we had em right when you could reach down and give the Clutch a flip and it'd start. Not with these new TMs. Thank goodness for electric start!

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It's nice to see someone else agreeing with the fuel droplets pooling on the floor of the carb. I did it and it worked for me. I really don't know about your head theory tho. You can do a search and find several people on here with 2012+ sleds with the same hanging idle. My buddies 2015 does it. I've said before, mikuni sells carbs to brp as "component" which is pre-assembled. For them to issue an ECR/change order to implement a wing in the carb specifically for BRP would increase costs dramatically. Therefore, we have to handle it in the aftermarket. Honestly, someone could really try making their own wing pretty darn easily with some very thin sheet metal. Just split the carb bore to an upper and lower, after the jets. My 2 cents.

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Saefjordan mentioned the inserts earlier in this thread. They are Quad Flow Torque Wings by Thunder products. Sorry I miss stated above these are TM 40s not 44s. Again way to many numbers rattling around in my noggin. On their web site a pair of wings for rack TM 40s runs $175. Kinda pricey for what they are. But I've heard over and over they fix the hanging idle. The theory is solid.

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From Thunder Products web site

Quote

"The horizontal stabilizer also performs another function. Any throttle position half throttle or below normally suffers a big drop in air velocity due to the air flow that goes under the carburetor slide being allowed to enter the full size of the carburetor bore producing a rolling turbulence and a corresponding drop in air velocity. The horizontal stabilizer prevents this drop in air velocity producing much quicker throttle response and a substantial increase in torque. The Torque Wing continues to kill off multi-directional turbulence all the way through full throttle. A small space is left between the torque wing and the carburetor to equalize and improve the air flow to all four quadrants."

From a Snow Tech article

"One of the applications where it seems to work well is with the sleds that suffer from the erratic high idle. You know, the ones where you come to a stop and the sled sits there and idles really high? The Torque Wing does a good job at knocking this high idle down."

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