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Daag44

Member Since 28 Oct 2011
Offline Last Active Today, 03:11 AM
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#23569985 What to do?????

Posted by Daag44 on Yesterday, 07:25 PM

Diagnose the failure before tearing into the engine, then rebuild. For the triple, nope.




#23568289 Amsoil in the 850

Posted by Daag44 on 22 November 2020 - 06:20 PM

 

It goes to show there are pros and cons to every oil recipe. It reminds me of the official BRP stance on riding a 2S with little opening of the exhaust valves will require yearly cleaning of the valves. It also raises the question on how different 850s are ridden giving more or less function to the boost/TBI injectors. I bet there are premium oils that will fair better in some areas and not so good in others. The LRB is a big one. Add the differences in riding styles and the variations are multiplied. For this reason the OEMs have developed their own testing strategies to find what works best overall to survive extended warranties. Now add 300F belt temps and repeated blown belts, and this throws a whole bunch of sleds into the ringer. We can keep going on like this with all sorts of scenarios like sleds reaching too hot of engine temperatures from poor cooling, and different storage practices.

 

I like how far Project Farm is taking his tests which are inspired by contributors. The cool part is seeing what procedures and tools he uses. Obviously he figured out that HC emissions does count, and found a tester to measure. What he showed with the manufacturer break-in was unreal. And to able to guess on the initial manufacturer break-in of those generators would require paying attention to those in the know who contribute to his videos. I would hope and doubt that BRP does anything that foolish with initial break-in on high perf two strokes as was done with those generators.




#23567957 automatic advertisements

Posted by Daag44 on 22 November 2020 - 01:06 PM

I nearly forgot about this craziness since AdBlocker was installed. But I don't expect this to last much longer than it takes Vertiscope to jump on the bandwagon to detect AdBlocker and limit viewing.




#23567449 Timing offset and engine bog

Posted by Daag44 on 22 November 2020 - 01:27 AM

Not yet Daag. Transitioning from Mustang and lake season to snowmobile season probably December

 
I am patient, but I wanted to make sure you didn't forget this one lol  There is this very particular case that I have been trying to work out that even stumped BRP. BUDS only allows to advance or retard the timing 4 degrees, so when the ignition timing is found that much further than I begin to suspect the keyway in the flywheel was machined with the incorrect angle. There are offset keys, but like you this is a stock sled. There may also be a way to cheat this limitation, but I haven't comfired it yet. This isn't something that I have seen, hence why I am interested to see if such a machining error has ever been confirmed.




#23565711 Timing offset and engine bog

Posted by Daag44 on 20 November 2020 - 05:23 PM

Did you have the chance to index TDC and run a timing light?




#23560185 BRP GO is live

Posted by Daag44 on 16 November 2020 - 11:08 PM

I anyone able to select a starting point?




#23560017 Dampener won't come off Pdrive

Posted by Daag44 on 16 November 2020 - 09:02 PM

The odd one is absolutely brutal. I had one 18 with 1700km that had never been off. I tried every Method. In the end  (thank God for snow)  I drove the sled several miles getting the clutch smoking hot. Pooped it off the engine and used the pulled threaded in... big hammer method and off she came.

 

Might have been a coincidence  :shrug Maybe i loosened it on the first round of beatings. :lol:

 
Exactly the best way to go, when you're on snow.  In the oven she goes when your on grass getting baked lol




#23559509 No Spark No e start mxzx 800 2007

Posted by Daag44 on 16 November 2020 - 06:04 PM

If this a manual start sled that was recently converted to electric start, it will need a different configuration harness. 




#23559489 My XP build so far

Posted by Daag44 on 16 November 2020 - 05:41 PM

Having to add additional electronics to make something work that is already there is adding a failure point and a major fail. What is more important than a temperature gauge on a sled??? I can't think of anything that comes remotely close. Next in line is a voltage gauge. It's not a car where you can call for a tow. At -4F in the middle of fields, I do not want to be walking for hours.




#23557865 Mystic oil

Posted by Daag44 on 15 November 2020 - 06:32 PM

You'd think they could add some known aromatic compound like Klotz or the french oil company (name escapes me at the moment but it and Klotz are the two best smelling oils).

 

iPone
 


  • djm likes this


#23555319 Hard start / Cuts out in RPM range ( Losing my marbles )

Posted by Daag44 on 13 November 2020 - 11:32 PM

When the 2 factory etec engines went , and only had one running cylinder, my brother rode it back 50 miles on one lung.... starts stops... just 40mph top end speed!

GutZ

 
Running on one cylinder is a poor man's compression test  lol




#23554827 Mystic oil

Posted by Daag44 on 13 November 2020 - 05:08 PM

You know part of your comment, XPS having a specific strategy/make-up for the LRB make me think their strategy does not work that well. While the number of failures of the 850 is less than the old 800s they still lose a lot of engines due to LRB failure so I hear. Even though I am on the fence because I don't want to be denied if I have a warranty claim I also want to run the oil that I think is most likely to keep me from having an LRB failure. I believe the oil pump is a positive displacement type so it should pass the same amount of any snowmobile oil. Based on my experience the oil film coating on engines I have torn down is far superior with Mystic than it is XPS. I also know people totally discount the testing done by the guy called the professor but if you believe there is some legitimacy to his testing it also shows higher performance with Mystic. If I knew for sure they would cover my warranty I would 00% run Mystic. This is even the same case if they were the same price. I would like to hear from anyone running Mystic that has had a failure with an 850.

 
For all know it may hold an advantage for the LRB. If anything it may be better in some circumstances and be problematic in others. There is obviously no way for me to know, but there are 850 owners who do use other oils. Eventually we will hear more about it, because LRF is a type of failure that owners like yourself pay close attention and historically provided incentive to try other oils and delivery methods. I won't discourage you, not even close. However if this was an oil on my list that I do not trust further than it can be pumped, I would try to find a clever way to say please don't risk it. The high end Mystic is not an oil that I have ever used, but it is one that I have heard was on the good list for the same reason that you mentioned.

There are a number of things that I would like to address before you go this route. The first one is your personal experience with either your sled or anyone else that you know.. I doesn't bother me if it was your neighbour's sled, because I trust you did all of the necessary due diligence in following these sleds closely. The first thing I would ask myself is if any of them were an E-TEC, and if they reached 8K+ miles with an 800, and 10K+ miles with a 600. If the answer is yes, then it is a no brainer.

The second thing is the LRF of the 850. This one deserves a lot of attention for many reasons. The firs thing is the trail 850s have reported premature failures with oils other than XPS. Mystic isn't one of those that I am aware of, but it would be best to ask your local dealer just to be sure. They see the failures and know which oils to avoid.

The second thing is that each OEM have spent years developing their own testing procedure on the dyno to best mimic the variation in conditions and driving styles. Then they get sent on a test track with riders who's job is to test in real world conditions. I actually don't know to what extent Arctic Cat and Polaris do this, but BRP spends  lot of time and effort testing on their track. For this I am sticking with trail sleds, because mountain sleds are a whole other animal with lower air flow vs power.

Third is the life expectancy of the 850. In the very beginning it was said to expect 25-30K Km, so let's round it off to 15-18K miles. The 850 was a serious and historical attempt to extend the life of the 800/850 class two strokes that met the latest emission standards. It was obviously tested with XPS, so there is no question on the quality of the XPS oil.

So why the LRF??? This leads me to #4, diagnosing a failure. You seem to be doing your work, so it is a good guess that you have seen your share of 2S failures that were never fully diagnosed. Some of the very first questions that I ask is how long after the last fill-up, and what octane was used. There is good reason that I choose 91 over 93/94. It wasn't one or two anecdotal experiences, but rather far too many. Heck, it has come to a point that I give it a 50/50 chance that a 2S failure followed a fill-up of with high octane low turnover gasoline. I have no clue if it is anywhere near 50/50 as it would take a huge sample size to validate, but from my observation the correlation is astounding. With forced induction in cars this causes an audible ping that disappears with fresh 91. It is bad for the LRB.

For #5, pay close attention to the modification that BRP brought to MY2018, 2019, and 2021 for the clutches with cooling and alignment. Those were the biggest changes ever seen in the history of snowmobiles. There are no other sleds with that much venting and even a temperature gauge for the CVT area. These are huge changes.

What happens to the heat of the clutches when they reach over 300F??? The temperature that I use and post on DooTalk to help with the removal of the Primary Clutch and Magneto Flywheel is 150F. This is to expand the taper for easier removal and less impact on the crankshaft. This is also the main reason I do not use the water method unless I absolutely have to. If the sled runs and there is snow on the ground, I will take the sled for quick ride to heat the taper before pulling off the clutch. Now what happens to the heat from the primary clutch when it reaches 300F+ ??? This heat is conducted to the crankshaft, and this expansion goes the wrong way for the LRB as it reduces the clearance for the needle bearings. I don't know if this is a problem on the 850, but it is a legitimate concern worth considering.

I would be interested to know how often have you monitored the clutch heat from different sleds you ride with. I do not have trouble with this when trail riding since I don't ride hard enough. But I have and still do take a peak at the sleds that are ridden hard on trails. I don't mean hard riding as in a few wot pulls here and there, but real hard riding with constant on/off throttle. I have done this often enough on 600s, 800s, 850s and 1000s that it is no longer a lingering question. The clutches get scorching hot!

#6 I want to draw attention to blown belts, runout and vibrations. Have you ever measured the runout of the crankshaft pto side and sheave runout? I have on the 850 and they were in spec, but others have reported runouts that were way above the norm. When an 850 measures 4 thou crankshaft runout next to the pto seal, that is really bad. By the way I don't know why anyone would be measuring next to the seal.

#7, There is the issue of debris in the cooling system on MY2017. While it was addressed for the most part, some have shown issues much later and above the 5K miles.

#8, Fuel vs oil consumption and changes for MY2019.

#9, Oil line issues.


For a final #10, pick anything that would stress the engine to run like it wasn't supposed to. I only want to make the argument that we have no clue of the condition of the engines that suffered a LRF. So if you want to switch to Mystic, do it because you have done your homework and you are confident it should work. BRP are not worried about every other oil, but rather the ones that are not up to par from their own testing. Make no mistake, they do test some of the other oils, and they do know the problematic ones. One of those to avoid I did learn from BRP.

I just want you to make a conscious choice that is built on your experience with E-TEC engines, and not on the 850 failures that we do not know the cause.

One last thing, if BRP could figure how to inject oil to the fuel rail for the auxiliary injectors, I would expect the LRF to disappear.




#23553327 Mystic oil

Posted by Daag44 on 12 November 2020 - 06:24 PM

Oil companies have the option to work with sled owners to develop a reputation for their oil. I don't see how it is up to the owners to decide if the oil is adequate for a particular sled without sound data.
 
I get this whole question about oil and I have to work it out just like everyone else. For example I have my favorite 2S oil for handheld equipment which is Stihl. Amsoil advocate 100:1  instead of the 50:1 for Stihl. The difference in ratio alone would have most people question the difference in quality, but that is not how it works. The ratio is set for the average load and average life expectancy of the equipment. The oil recipe is a balance between the need of the top end and LRB - Lower Rod Bearing.
 
It is the same with sleds in addition of striking a balance with the exhaust valves, viscosity for the real cold temperatures, and oil pump throughput. The E-TEC has an additional concern with Direct Injection. Those are many reasons for oil manufacturers to avoid going out of their way with extensive oil testing on sleds. Keep in mind that sleds are in their own little world. Ask any owner of a 2S MX bike if they care for reaching 10,000+ miles. And 10K miles is already way above the industry standard. Sleds are remarkably powerful with over 0.216 Hp per CC on the 600s, and 0.194 Hp per CC on the 800/850, and this is below 8,000 rpm! These are not toys.
 
Now add the most complicated part of these high strung machines, the lower rod bearings in a fueless base. All three OEMs (Arctic Cat, BRP and Polaris) have explained how important this component is when developing the oil recipe. To make matters even more complicated, all three of them use very different strategies to address the LRB. Hence the oil recipe matches the chosen strategy. BRP went as far as explaining their oil had an important component that the other two OEMs didn't, yet all three OEMs use the same company. In other words, it isn't the oil manufacturer that is important, but rather the recipe that is tailored to the engine and oil management strategy.
 
The irony is that we as consumers are asking to keep building two stroke despite the increase in difficulty to meet emission regulations, and we keep wanting more power. On the same token we want to use the any oil regardless that they are a one size fits all. When I buy a suit from a reputable store - and nothing expensive either - the clerk has the local seamstress take the measurements while I am wearing the suit. A couple hours later the necessary adjustments were made so I doesn't look like I crapped in my pants throughout the wedding lol
 
Back to Mystic oil, why don't they formulate an oil specific to the 850 E-TEC? Then you may wonder if another oil is needed for the 600R, but that's not how it works. The final XPS synthetic oil put out by BRP in 2012 was specifically designed for the 800R E-TEC, not the 600 HO E-TEC. Then they tested the oil with their fleet of snowmobile engines to make sure it worked. If it was that good, then why wasn't it used for their outboards? The outboards don't have the same needs in part due to lower Hp per CC and whatever else is different, but they are all DI, so there is commonality. The point is, there is no such things as a best oil that fits every engine.
 
In the end, there is no incentive for the oil manufacturers to make oils for different engine technologies that employ different strategies. Even if they did, the OEMs (Arctic Cat, BRP and Polaris) would still have the upper hand in oil sales. Mystic is probably a good oil, but also a generic oil. Who knows, it may fair better in certain areas. Without a large enough test base, there is no way to test for efficacy. This goes back to what I started with. The oil companies could do this, but does it make economical sense?

 

If the only thing you got out of this was to choose XPS, then you missed the point entirely. Choose the oil that you feel comfortable with. I just wanted to make the argument that it isn't as simple as it may appear. Personally I am concerned with the direction that BRP took the 850, so I do not see it black&white.

 

I just hope that those who do choose other oils will care enough to share their findings. Longevity is a huge factor. I figure that 10K+  trail miles does count for a lot. I am hopeful that we will see 850s reach this far with other oils. The thing is it took 4 seasons for the 850 to show 15K+ miles on DooTalk, so I am not holding my breath.

 

One more time, should the oil companies make the effort? Heck yes, but involve the owners and provide incentive. For example, if Mystic really believes their oil is adequate for the 850 E-TEC, then they can invest a little money directly with the owners. They would fare better to choose high mileage riders like 5K+ per season, and provide the owners with oil in return for regular updates. If they were serious enough about it, they could even feed the OEM with their findings and initiate some sort of collaboration. BRP has a history of working with the aftermarket, but there must be a serious and legit attempt.  




#23552277 Hard start / Cuts out in RPM range ( Losing my marbles )

Posted by Daag44 on 11 November 2020 - 11:44 PM

Found it [emoji30]
I made the mistake of using the old "feels like great compression" pull test. Plus it ran so good... sometimes.
Checked compression tonight before it's BUDS check at the dealership this weekend.
Any guesses on how low it was?!
I can't believe it ran as good as it did [emoji2357]

Thank you to all that helped in the diagnosing! Now I know, hopefully this thread finds someone so they won't make the same assumption.

Sent from my SM-G715U using Tapatalk

 
Are you certain, or at least ok with the findings? I am not worried about what you found, but rather what appears too embarrassing to share. None of us on DooTalk go out of our way to post embarrassing moments, but we all have done dumb moves at one point or another. I think this may be your turn to show what's up.

 

If anyone makes you feel incompetent for making the dumbest mistake, pay closer attention to those of us who don't feed off of this.




#23552259 Ptek 800 Turbo.

Posted by Daag44 on 11 November 2020 - 11:24 PM

<Daag—-I wish you were from around here. Having another set of trained eyes and ears would help me immensely trying to get it tuned in. Did you have a turbo Ptek back in the day?>
 
I would enjoy it more than you realize. Unfortunately the question on first hand turbo 2S experience has me realize that I won't be of any help. To be honest, and since you have let the cat out of the bag, I am far more interested in the kids in grade school than a turbo. I had to shave it down a 1000 words or so, but this is the one thing I did want to keep. I am forever in debt for the work that you do. Picture that kid that you shake your head hoping/praying that he will be fine, and that is who is replying today. The teachers in my elementary years had a HUGE impact. Thank you!