12 replies to this topic

[ReswesT101]

Hi there

 

I am back around sleds for the first time in many years and have a couple questions about this sled.

 

We were running into some issues with it running a little rough over the weekend at times then it seemed to clear up on it's own. It has a Boondocker control box on it along with a Racepack Avenger 3 to monitor temperatures. The sled was being used at about 5000 - 6000 feet in about 35-40 degree temperatures primarily just trail riding. 

 

I was noticing it losing power last time out a week back at the end of the ride when I was trying to climb hills after running fine earlier. It was intermittently losing power and stalling out a bit this past Saturday and the same for part of the day Sunday. I was not on it much myself (the kids put me on the 380f and took the 600 and 1000 SDI's) but it did lose power the first time I was on it going down the trail. It finally stalled out when I stopped. It would not restart and run so I unhooked the control box. The sled started but only seemed to rev out to 6000 RPM and would not run properly with any more throttle than that. I re-hooked up the control box and it would not want to restart for a half dozen pulls then suddenly start up and run fine throughout the throttle range for a few minutes. Same thing would happen again then about after a half hour of doing that same thin several times over it ran absolutely fine for the last few hours of the day with the incredible power that it seems to have.

 

The exhaust temperature on the one side that was working (the other quit last time out) was around 1300 degrees on the trail at mid throttle. I will try to track down what is wrong there too.

 

I have no idea what exhaust temperatures I should be looking for on this sled?

 

Also not sure what the control box setting should be set at for a safe baseline to adjust from for a Summit? I have seen numbers for the same motor in a Mach Z and am unsure if they are the same for a Summit that is used between 5000 and 8000 feet in elevation. I assume not, but am not sure at all myself.

 

From my limited knowledge the plugs look fine but are a different number than what I have seen listed here and both sets in the sled were BR8ECS's. The mag side to the right in this picture has a little more carbon on it but they were not entirely clean when I put them in as they were changed on the trail when the sled stalled mid day. In comparison to other pictures I have seen the plugs look about right in terms of color and I do know that the sled has been running a little more oil lately, likely close to 30:1 (Injection ~ 40:1(last tank) and 100:1 in the fuel). Maybe that is part of my problem?

 

We have been only using 94 Octane fuel without ethanol in our sleds.

 

The sled has a stock pipe but has a pretty loud can in place of the factory muffler. Other than that I think the engine may be stock but has been rebuilt at least once (top and bottom) based upon the appearance at the gasket lines in it's 2500 miles. It has definitely been clutched and geared for the mountains.

 

We have been running this sled very lightly until I get a better idea of what I should be looking for.

 

Any advice on exhaust temperatures to look for or baseline settings for that controller would be appreciated.

 

Thanks Gary

Edited by ReswesT101, 07 April 2021 - 08:05 PM.

[MrGutz]

So....

It's a summit, 2005, has an extra\piggyback controller, and egt sensors.

Twin Pipes? ( Trying to determine the need for the Controller)

Temps I think..... should be around 1050-1100 ( I believe )

Does it have an electric fuel pump or original vacuum?

Compression Test? 

Does it have the Sensor in the Muffler?

Fuel Pressure Gauge?

Just trying to get a feeling for this sled.

GutZ

[ReswesT101]

Good morning 

 

The sled has a single stock pipe with a can in place of the muffler.

 

I think the low pressure pump has already been re-routed

 

I am pretty lost here on this beast but trying to learn as much as quickly as I can on this forum reading the older posts.

 

It does not have a fuel gauge but it seems from what I have read that that would be something I should try to get on there ASAP.

 

Also so a pretty detailed post about upgrading the wiring in several locations to improve the ground which I may tied into this evening.

 

I think my problems are with one of the fuel pumps. The idle and starting are fine and sled seems to run very well up to about 1/2 throttle then seems to run out of fuel.

It is geared pretty low for the mountains and with the back shifting it has, when I lose power it pretty much puts me over the bars as the throttle drops off that quickly. Let off the throttle and it is fine again until your back on it too much. We were out yesterday and I am hoping to get something done here today with a new pump or at least a gauge to see what the pressure is so we can ride this weekend.

 

I assume it is the high pressure pump given that it starts and runs fine just seems to be not getting enough fuel when under more load. Could be totally wrong on that though. Have heard that dirty E-raves can be an issue too but I would assume that it would not be that severe.

 

I would appreciate any input or links to help me out with which gauge to get and where to install it. 

 

Gary

Edited by ReswesT101, 09 April 2021 - 10:34 AM.

[MrGutz]

I'm leaning toward the first\LP Pump, it's an odd-ish setup.

The LP pump fills a bladder\tank from the primary tank and HP Pump feeds the injectors from there.

IF the LP cant keep the tank full the HP starves and Pressure and Power drop.

The Primary Tank, if full, will mask the issue until 1/2 or 2/3 tank is reached.

Then it depends on the LP.

So even if it was corrected or replaced.... 15 years ago... it may need a new one.

Pics of the LP pump would be a start and check wiring to it.

The Gauge, I think it was an AutoMeter, I would look for a digital sensor and gauge. I went through 2-3 of the mechanical gauges.

 

GutZ

[ReswesT101]

I picked up both a low pressure pump and a high pressure pump today at NAPA based upon the numbers provided here on the forum.

 

As you are indicating and other posts I have read here I am thinking of changing the low pressure pump anyway as the symptoms seem to point that way and it has already been moved and easy to get at. I was clearly seeing more power loss yesterday when the fuel was running toward the lower third of the tank too. It does however still die out when really on the throttle with the tank full just a little less often and briefly and probably only upwards of 7000 RPM or so.

 

I would like to change the high pressure gauge out to but really haven't researched that project yet and assume it is a little (lot?) more in depth.

 

We are heading in to the auto parts store right now to see if I can get the parts for a temporary gauge set up of some sort to see where I am at.

 

I do plan on having a fuel pressure gauge on both my 600 and 1000 SDI for next season and would definitely like something stock looking right beside the tach but that may have to wait a bit. Probably going to order those parts on Monday once I find out what will be best for the long term.

 

I assume the sensor you are mentioning is the 50 PSI shut off switch I have read about?

 

Complete white out/blizzard here today where we were heading and given the Summit was left in the shop and I was going to have 220lbs sitting on a 380F legend with a 3/4 by 121 track just ended up going for a father and daughter drive for the morning and afternoon. Plan on spending a few hours here tonight and before day break changing the low pressure pump, hopefully getting some sort of gauge set up on it so we can get a long day in out there again tomorrow.

 

Thanks for your input, very much appreciated.

[MrGutz]

The Sensor is the sending unit for the Fuel Pressure Sensor.

We had been using the Fluid Filled Gauges but most reported issues with flutter\offset of the needle\etc... as well you had to fun a fuel line to the dash for the Gauge.

Some had experimented with the digital gauge and electro sensor in the fuel line.

 

Replace the fuel filter too.

 

I wonder if the Reeds are too loose\worn, hmmmm, this may cause the top end lose due to not closing quick\seal well enough.

 

If you're feeling crafty you could add a micro switch to the RAVE assembly so when they open the switch is depressed, a light to the dash.

 

Also pick up a water\weather proof relay and use it to run the LP Pump straight from the battery.

 

I still dont know why you have the piggyback box on the injectors ( usually added for either Pipes or Head inserts or .....) . I would remove it and see if you can check for bad connections or wires. 

 

Later

GutZ

[Daag44]

The stock muffler is roughly 20 lbs, but it is worth its weight.
 
A problem with the LP pump can lead to a HP failure. LP pump and fuel issues. The sock filter for the HP pump and in line filter are two other areas to be concerned with, and it happens to any 600/800/1000 2-TEC to the 1200 4-TEC to the 600/800/850 E-TECs. Either test the fuel pressure or do a visual inspection.

[ReswesT101]

Picked up a low pressure pump yesterday at NAPA and planned to ride the Summit today but did a little more reading and am concerned about installing that FACET pump in the same relocation area mine is now way up high on the steering post behind the gauges. 

 

Sounds like I should be going with a Carter one if I am using that same location which also may be better in terms of having a steady current draw.

 

I have not replaced or checked the in-line filter either and since the sled was running fine before this last extended period of sitting unused that is a concern as is whatever there is in the tank pick up as well.

 

Going to slowly plug away at the sled over the week here in the evenings and see if I can get it running properly for next weekend.

 

What would be the best method to test the fuel pressure in the short term before I can get a hold of some nice looking gauges for the 600 and 1000 SDI?

 

I read something about a gauge kit the same as the dealer uses that some owners can install temporarily somehow.

[Daag44]

It will work, but don't count on durability and longevity. The same with the Carter vane pump. There is a long 17 year history that will not be so clear from reading any of the archives. Please post any of the ones that I showed so that I can make corrections. I know of three off the top of my head. It is the ones that I am missing that worries me.

[Daag44]

<I read something about a gauge kit the same as the dealer uses that some owners can install temporarily somehow.>

 

I don't remember any picture reference to this other than what I posted for the 600 SDI. I have the same one shown in the Shop Manual, but it is overpriced. You can probably build ten for what paid for one.

[Daag44]

<I have not replaced or checked the in-line filter either and since the sled was running fine before this last extended period of sitting unused that is a concern as is whatever there is in the tank pick up as well.>

 

I have stopped worrying about how well it worked last week with how it relates to this week. It is how it happens with each engine failure, one day it work and next day it doesn't.

 

 

<What would be the best method to test the fuel pressure in the short term before I can get a hold of some nice looking gauges for the 600 and 1000 SDI?>

 

I don't know. Some claim to test compression with their thumb, but it has never worked for me. The only thing that I can think of is doing a visual inspection of the sock filter.

[MotoRudyX]

It will work, but don't count on durability and longevity. The same with the Carter vane pump. There is a long 17 year history that will not be so clear from reading any of the archives. Please post any of the ones that I showed so that I can make corrections. I know of three off the top of my head. It is the ones that I am missing that worries me.

I've had my Carter P60430 rotary vane pump in for roughly 7 or 8 years now.  Mounted low!  Near the muffler!  Guess I have a recipe for disaster. 

[heckhole]

I had good luck using a Mr Gasket lp pump on 2 Mach Z's.

Aside from one leaking brand new from the box, they lasted my ownership & buddies, and had some hard miles on them.