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pDrive or CV Tech or Polaris clutch?

850 g4 gen4 pdrive cvtech polaris pb80 p85 Dynamo^Joe

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#16 jack-danels

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 12:22 PM

Then its the spring selection compared to the ramp curve that brings a linear result.  Now, does it matter what primary clutch IF you have the spring selection?  :lol:

 

 

So if it comes down to spring selection why do we need such complicated clutches?
What makes a TRA or pDrive better than the CV Tech?


1998 Summit 670 X 151
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#17 Ski-B

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 01:02 PM

I  Just kind of wondering what might happen installing a primary clutch with out the wobble on the 850. Apparently some guys have done this... but I have never seen there honest opinion on how it panned out for crank longevity.  


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#18 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 01:13 PM

Clutches are simple - Regardless of brand, they have simple parts that make it up, and can put simple parts in them to tune.

If you take the pertinent information out of an 90 page tuning handbook, you can put all the pertinent tuning "what to do and use" paragraphs on 2 pages.

 

Engines are complicated - Varying hp from small to large and the rpms the engines run at.

Just on an exhaust pipe of how it works to design one, can be a 200page book, and that's without reading an annotated book.

 

Category of sled complicated - Varying in use from trapper to trail to mountain.

Personal desire of what you want increases the complications.



#19 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 05:11 PM

What makes a TRA or pDrive better than the CV Tech?

I wont say which clutch is better than another; i'll say its the individual tuning the clutch, their experiences with it.

 

here is an article out of a tuning handbook i been writing for years (Chapter 7)

 

 

Dynamite in small packages

46           I’ve seen 340 and 440 open mods beat 700 open mods to the 60 and 100 foot mark.  I’ve seen 440’s beat 600’s to the finish line.  One of my favorite grass drag racing tuner-drivers to watch from 1988~1991 was an unknown guy from the Midwest, Glenn L.   Traveling to many races, I spent more time in the pits talking to drivers than watching races.  We became friendly enough to have a Coke and a smoke, chatting after racing.

07_glennlayton - Copy.jpg

 

47           Glenn, an expert at ramp grinding (which anyone can be too if they learn “where” to shape them), used Rotax powered, Arctic cat, three ramp, hex primary clutches.  “You can pick these primary clutches at the swap meet for less than a carton of cigarettes.  The ramps you can find them for the price of a six-pack of beer.  Parts are cheap and, they’re easy and quick to tune for drag racing.”

 

48a         Glenn made his “progress” through many mistakes.  After a refining, he come to realize to make the hardest acceleration, you have to not pay attention to anyone else, no, only your own sled, that’s it.  What Glenn mentions is true in certain situations.  An added truth; When timing is correct, It is also good to run and watch someone who's beating you so you can gauge your own performance level and figure out where it's lacking.  When you watch someone race beside you, you are paying attention to your own sled.

 

48b (removed)

 

49           Glenn continues, “Concentrating on your own sled, when you hit the throttle, you make the engine speed up from engagement to top rpms in the right amount of time.  Too quick the sled launches unstable.  Engine speed too slow and the sled won’t pull.  Either way, you’ll get beat off the start line.”

 

Hmm...Doesn’t Glenn with his own words, repeats rules to what Mr. Aaen says?

 

 

06-01:The driving clutch has one main purpose: to control the engine speed in all shift ratios. 

07-02: The clutching phase begins when the flyweight force overcomes the pretension (primary spring start force) and lasts until the flyweights have generated enough side force to transfer the engine torque without slipping the belt.

06-02:Keeping the engine on power curve and pulling.... 

07-03: When the belt is fully engaged, the speed will continue to increase in low ratio until XXXX RPM is reached.  This is called the “shift point”

 

 

 

Now what does it matter of what brand or style of primary clutch you have?  If you have the tuning parts; then go tune it and its not the clutch, its "you" then.

 

Glenn used an old Beater Cat HEX primary clutch.  That's what he chose to tune with and stay with it.  And anyone who remembers him "Glenn ate people's lunches"  One could not throw enough $$$ at a sled to beat Glenn because he had experiences that weighed more than a wheelbarrow full of money.

 

So now if you go to the PB-80, then you stick with it and become a master tuner for the PB-80 like Glenn did with the Hex - and eventually you'll say too; its not the clutch.  its the effort "you" put into getting your own setup to work.



#20 jack-danels

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 05:27 PM

I Just kind of wondering what might happen installing a primary clutch with out the wobble on the 850. Apparently some guys have done this... but I have never seen there honest opinion on how it panned out for crank longevity.

That's what started this all, knowing a guy who's done it with the Polaris clutch, and coming here to see who else has done it.

My buddy who has put the Polaris clutch on his sled puts a lot of miles on, and it's worked well for him.

I also wonder how the GNR alignment method affects crank runout afterwards?
I wouldn't dream of doing it with an 800R/Etec. Those cranks seem to bend if you look at them wrong. But the 850 is supposed to have a much tougher bottom end..

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1998 Summit 670 X 151
2009 Summit 800 156 x 3"
2015 Summit 800 X T3 174

#21 Caper11

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 05:43 PM

What have you tried with the pdrive, and the secondary to make it more efficient and lower heat?


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#22 jack-danels

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 05:56 PM

Clutches are simple - Regardless of brand, they have simple parts that make it up, and can put simple parts in them to tune.

If you take the pertinent information out of an 90 page tuning handbook, you can put all the pertinent tuning "what to do and use" paragraphs on 2 pages.

 

Engines are complicated - Varying hp from small to large and the rpms the engines run at.

Just on an exhaust pipe of how it works to design one, can be a 200page book, and that's without reading an annotated book.

 

Category of sled complicated - Varying in use from trapper to trail to mountain.

Personal desire of what you want increases the complications.

 

I simply just can't thank you enough! I know that you're and extremely busy guy and the fact that you take the time to talk with me and others on here is huge! I understand that this is essentially marketing your brand/business, but still... Thank you!

 

Ironically enough this raises a new dilemma for me, haha. Because you've been such a legend I want to support your business, but I also want to try the CV Tech clutch and post my results on here so others can learn from it. 

 

I think either way I'll buy your kit, that way I can say whether the pDrive tuned is better than the CV Tech tuned.


1998 Summit 670 X 151
2009 Summit 800 156 x 3"
2015 Summit 800 X T3 174

#23 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 07:22 PM

Dont buy my kit.  If you're heart is set on a different brand pulley, then go for it.

 

I also wonder how the GNR alignment method affects crank runout afterwards?
 

the only thing that affects crankshaft runout is at the point of crankshaft assembly.  What runout does it have at at assembly? (wherever its assembled)

or

coming off a wheelie and landing the clutch on a tree stump [or other of the same kind of event(s)]  Ya that'll bend a crank (i have pictures somewhere hahaha)

 

Guys will parakeet sh\tty information and say "too much pivot bolt weight" will make the clicker dial bore wear out and the cam arm will dig into the spider.

Yes the cam arm can dig into the spider and make a curved scrape in it.

The root of the problem is crankshaft runout. 

850 runout.jpg

 

I talked with this guy the other day about his clicker dials are very loose.

 

So this "unlearned" Jonathan B says "sideload on the ramps" taking out roller bearings and creating heat.
 
Your pivot bolt weight
18.1g = 30mm + s2mm + s2mm
 
2021 x Expedition 850
982 ramps
16.7 g bolt
s2mm spacer 1.2 grams
Pivot bolt total = 17.9 grams
 
2021 x Summit 850
990 ramp
16.7g bolt
s9mm spacer @ 5.0 grams
Pivot bolt total = 21.7 grams
 
The Expedition is running 0.2 grams less than you.
The stock summit is running 3.6 grams MORE than you.
 
Then according to the parakeet JB, the stock clutching pivot bolt weights should have as much or more sideload on the ramps as your clutches pivot bolt weight and should take out the roller bearings and should create heat.  Buddy, if you do the math, you can see you are running less weight than stock clutching.

 

Here is the reason your clicker dials are wearing out - your crankshaft stub is either AT the run-out limit or past the run-out limit.

You have to remove the primary clutch off the engine.

Then put a dial indicator on the inside of the "D" notch of the crankshaft.  The dial indicator stylus goes 1/8 of an inch before the "D" notch on the crankshaft.  You put the clutch bolt back in the crankshaft and turn the crankshaft.  The dial indicator base must be ratchet strap to the engine, it cannot be isolated from crankshaft stub.
https://www.ibackshi.../-162.asp#taper
Clutch run-out maximum is 0.0024
Clutch wear parts start to wear fast at 0.0015
Anything better than 0.0014 to 0.0010 is good, less is near perfect.

When a cranks stub is towards the run out spec, the clutch runs in an orbit and thrusts the ramp in and out of its natural parallel position as it rotates around.

The stator magnets are powerful and pulse as you turn the crankshaft so you need the bolt back in the crankshaft and turn with a powerbar to resist the magnet pulses.  And the dial indicator cannot be separate from the engine, has to be mounted on the engine.  Ive used a ratchet strap to wrap around the cylinder to mount the dial block.

If you are not going to fix the crankshaft run-out then you should get these super tough plastic clicker dials.
http://stmpowersport...r-adjuster-cam/



#24 jack-danels

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 07:33 PM

Dont buy my kit.  If you're heart is set on a different brand pulley, then go for it.

 

the only thing that affects crankshaft runout is at the point of crankshaft assembly.  What runout does it have at at assembly? (wherever its assembled)

or

coming off a wheelie and landing the clutch on a tree stump [or other of the same kind of event(s)]  Ya that'll bend a crank (i have pictures somewhere hahaha)

 

Guys will parakeet sh\tty information and say "too much pivot bolt weight" will make the clicker dial bore wear out and the cam arm will dig into the spider.

Yes the cam arm can dig into the spider and make a curved scrape in it.

 

 

My heart isn't set on any particular brand of pulley, in spite of my harsh words towards it when I started this post I have been leaning towards the pDrive right from the start, or maybe just looking for a reason to stay with it.

 

What I meant by "runout afterwards" was if the preload portion of the GNR alignment procedure would put too much stress on the crank. Especially pulling on it that far away from the bearing, a lot of mechanical advantage there.


1998 Summit 670 X 151
2009 Summit 800 156 x 3"
2015 Summit 800 X T3 174

#25 Michcallacamedis

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Posted 09 April 2021 - 06:31 PM

I wont say which clutch is better than another; i'll say its the individual tuning the clutch, their experiences with it.

here is an article out of a tuning handbook i been writing for years (Chapter 7)


Now what does it matter of what brand or style of primary clutch you have? If you have the tuning parts; then go tune it and its not the clutch, its "you" then.

Glenn used an old Beater Cat HEX primary clutch. That's what he chose to tune with and stay with it. And anyone who remembers him "Glenn ate people's lunches" One could not throw enough $$$ at a sled to beat Glenn because he had experiences that weighed more than a wheelbarrow full of money.

So now if you go to the PB-80, then you stick with it and become a master tuner for the PB-80 like Glenn did with the Hex - and eventually you'll say too; its not the clutch. its the effort "you" put into getting your own setup to work.


Worded perfectly.

#26 ctdls

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 09:03 AM

I'm freshening a 850 right now & it has 5000km & runs fine. It was clutched from day one, no engine alignment as that was prior to sorting that mess out. The clutches have not been touched since I set them up, it's obvious  some belts have blown.

 

The drive clutch will get all moveable parts replaced other than the moveable half bushings. Driven needs a moveable half bushing & jack shaft bearing, rollers are original & good. They will be replaced with Hi Torque just because.

 

That is impressive for 5k, TRA's when driven hard & heat soaked would have had @ least 5 rebuilds.

 

Now the engine, crank run out is .001. Any other Rotax is not that good out of the box. Piston to bore is .0095, max wear is spec'd @ .0079, new top end & back together it goes.

 

We will align the motor this time as it easy to shim correctly with it on the bench. That will end any belt issue's that it may have had.

 

Why anyone would change the drive clutch is beyond me, other than he said she said.



#27 ctdls

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 12:51 PM

 

 

What I meant by "runout afterwards" was if the preload portion of the GNR alignment procedure would put too much stress on the crank. Especially pulling on it that far away from the bearing, a lot of mechanical advantage there.

 

I sense someone is blowing alot smoke up your skirt. If you picked up the phone like I did & talked to Tim @ GNR how the alignment tool was developed you would have a much better understanding. The tool pre loads the clutches just as you do when you are riding, ask him how that was accomplished. You will also discover he is a mechanical engineer, works at a CNC facility full time to support his bad racing habit & business.

 

Our sport is fortunate to have a few people like that to help sort a bad design by BRP, that said BRP has more good ideas than bad. The P Drive is a brilliant design to counter balance an egine that by design will eat it's self.



#28 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 12 April 2021 - 05:02 PM

jack-danels, on 03 Apr 2021 - 8:33 PM, said:snapback.png

 

 

What I meant by "runout afterwards" was if the preload portion of the GNR alignment procedure would put too much stress on the crank. Especially pulling on it that far away from the bearing, a lot of mechanical advantage there.

 

  • When you go full throttle, the primary clutch slide sheave pushes on the belt.
  • The belt tugs on the secondary clutch.
  • the engine and secondary clutch pull towards each other
  • the engine mounts are keeping the engine and secondary clutch from crashing into each other

BRP has 4 (four) 240~250 hp x 850T sleds right now used in racing and one sled [5th (Fifth)] outside of hillclimb racing.  The race dept says estimated (conservative) 60 pounds more torque than stock (they wont say the exact number  B)  )

How much more torque is their engine putting stress on the crank than your engine?, [the engine and secondary clutch pull towards each other]

I would not worry about it.
 







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