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pDrive or CV Tech or Polaris clutch?

850 g4 gen4 pdrive cvtech polaris pb80 p85 Dynamo^Joe

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#1 jack-danels

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 09:32 PM

Looking at dumping the garbage Ski Doo pDrive primary, and going with either the Polaris P85 (I think), or the CV Tech PB80.

 

I have a buddy who modifies the Polaris clutch to fit. He loves it and says that his belt/clutch temps are SIGNIFICANTLY cooler.

 

I ran a CV Tech Trailbloc clutch on my Can Am Renegade years ago and it was a game changer. Such a simple yet amazingly effective clutch. The Powerbloc 80 is a similar, but more stout design, which is why it is on my list. 

 

I do like the sound of a primary clutch which supposedly dampens some of the harsh vibrations of these 850 stroker motors. And the ability to change weights, or even ramps on the fly is sure an attractive option, plus if I walk away from the pDrive I'll be loosing clickers.

 

Is it excessive belt/clutch temps that are causing PTO bearing failures on so many mountain 850's?

Going through belts isn't an attractive option either...

 

So has anyone hear of, or have direct experience with either clutch on a Ski Doo 850?

What was the consensus, good, bad, indifferent?

 

Clutching experts?

Dynamo^Joe?


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#2 Mr.Skidoo714

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 09:41 PM

How long have you been running your 850? What year is it? Just not sure if you're thinking about changing clutches before trying it... imo the p-drive is an excellent clutch and belt temps and belts blowing are a thing of the past. From what I understand the 2017s were the worst being the first year but 2018+ is pretty good and 2020+ is definitely good. I'm no expert but thats just my experience, I wouldn't trade my p-drive for anything I love it! So do all my friends, some of which have put 1500km+ of hard mountain riding on the orginal belt

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#3 Caper11

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 10:19 PM

Looking at dumping the garbage Ski Doo pDrive primary, and going with either the Polaris P85 (I think), or the CV Tech PB80.

I have a buddy who modifies the Polaris clutch to fit. He loves it and says that his belt/clutch temps are SIGNIFICANTLY cooler.

I ran a CV Tech Trailbloc clutch on my Can Am Renegade years ago and it was a game changer. Such a simple yet amazingly effective clutch. The Powerbloc 80 is a similar, but more stout design, which is why it is on my list.

I do like the sound of a primary clutch which supposedly dampens some of the harsh vibrations of these 850 stroker motors. And the ability to change weights, or even ramps on the fly is sure an attractive option, plus if I walk away from the pDrive I'll be loosing clickers.

Is it excessive belt/clutch temps that are causing PTO bearing failures on so many mountain 850's?
Going through belts isn't an attractive option either...

So has anyone hear of, or have direct experience with either clutch on a Ski Doo 850?
What was the consensus, good, bad, indifferent?

Clutching experts?
Dynamo^Joe?


Where have you been hearing the pDrive is the cause of PTO bearing failures??? Thats a first for me. The Pdrive is a very good clutch.


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#4 jack-danels

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 11:36 PM

Where have you been hearing the pDrive is the cause of PTO bearing failures??? Thats a first for me. The Pdrive is a very good clutch.


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Where have you been hearing that the pDrive is a very good clutch?!

As far as PTO bearing failures. Almost every 850 engine failure I've heard of is a PTO bearing failure.
Why does this set up burn up bottom ends more than just about any other Doo?
To me it's either vibration or heat.
The imbalance built into the pDrive, while it looks good on paper, may be exacerbating the issue. And before you say I have no proof, there is no proof that it is helping either.
That said I think that the bigger issue with this clutch is heat. I've put thousands of miles on a single 391 belt on both the XP & XM. That same belt which hardly last 200km on the G4.
That heat has to go somewhere, and what doesn't dissipate through the belt and air transfers to the crank; which just so happens to be the biggest source of failure with these motors.

So if I can save my motor by lowering clutch temps... Not to mention that lowering clutch temps is the result of more efficient clutching.

Even if it turns out that clutch heat isn't the cause of PTO bearing failures why wouldn't I want more efficient clutching?

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#5 Caper11

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Posted 02 April 2021 - 09:28 AM

Where have you been hearing that the pDrive is a very good clutch?!

As far as PTO bearing failures. Almost every 850 engine failure I've heard of is a PTO bearing failure.
Why does this set up burn up bottom ends more than just about any other Doo?
To me it's either vibration or heat.
The imbalance built into the pDrive, while it looks good on paper, may be exacerbating the issue. And before you say I have no proof, there is no proof that it is helping either.
That said I think that the bigger issue with this clutch is heat. I've put thousands of miles on a single 391 belt on both the XP & XM. That same belt which hardly last 200km on the G4.
That heat has to go somewhere, and what doesn't dissipate through the belt and air transfers to the crank; which just so happens to be the biggest source of failure with these motors.

So if I can save my motor by lowering clutch temps... Not to mention that lowering clutch temps is the result of more efficient clutching.

Even if it turns out that clutch heat isn't the cause of PTO bearing failures why wouldn't I want more efficient clutching?

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There is no imbalance built in to the PDrive.
I think your crank findings are suspicious, and wondering what else is done to the sled if your hearing alot of crank failures.
There is no excessive heat when the sled is clutched properly, so my advice is, save your money and learn to clutch what you have.

My buddy has been running 391 belts on his 850’s since 2017. He just used his last 391 on his 19 this winter, we have used 391’s on aftermarket turbo 850’s as well. Guess how many blown belts? One ulitmax on his 2017, cause he read they were awesome and it didn’t last one weekend.
The crank failures are not all belt failure and heat related.
My 2021 has a belt sensor and it has not gone off yet.


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#6 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 02 April 2021 - 10:19 AM

This is a "Canned speech" i give to people who have a question about belts blowing from overheating.  Like you drive the sled fairly hard "normal" and can smell the drive belt.

 

 

 

GNR Bracing…

Subject: motor alignment

I hate making statements based on a small amount of data but I think the motor alignment is the last piece to the puzzle of getting good belt life.  I have done 4 sleds now (2 2020 and 2 2018) and all of them required at least 2 shims in PTO and Mag mounts.  My 2020 is well within spec for offset but the 2 2018’s need to move left about 1mm to be at spec and .5mm to at least get within the tolerance so I ordered .5mm kits.  The other 2020 I did is way off on offset for some reason.  Almost like I mis-measured but I ordered a 3mm kit nonetheless. 

 

Last weekend in 3’ of blower pow, there were 3 blown belts.  My old 2018 with your kit, a stock 2018 146 and a 2018 turbo.  I touch the primary of the 146 after it blew a belt and had been sitting with panel open for a few minutes and pretty much burned off my finger prints.  In the same pull up the hill on my 2020 sled I could touch my primary immediately after stopping no problem.  My 200 degree temp stick did not melt.  I am convinced so far it is well worth the money and effort.

Kevin [in Alaska]

 

GNR Bracing…

Subject: motor alignment

Pat here.....Joe's big guy fat boy rider in Washington.....lol

Yup did GNR on my turbo and totally forgot the dash displayed the belt temp so turned it on when heading out on the groomed trail..... beat on her hard and warmest I see on the dash was 114°F

Rode McCall ID Monday in good snow and never seen over 130°F......

Heading back to McCall this weekend to a couple feet of fresh so will report how she augers thru the deep.....

Pat (inthe8s)  [Washington]

 

GNR Bracing…

Subject: motor alignment

IF you are blowing belts or regularly measure belt temperatures over 270 degrees, then the GNR alignment is the best thing I ever seen since sliced bread at contributing to lowering temperatures.  I’ve seen temps lowered between 70 to 100 degrees from doing the same pulls in a hill.   I was amazed at the temperature drop, and I got to test it in Revelstoke with similar sleds, 175’s and they were 220 deg when mine was around 300~305 degrees.

 

…the GNR alignment is GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD, I can’t say enough good about it for $230/ fkn drive belt.

 

…………………….i would not touch the belt guard.  I would do a GNR alignment and lose up to 100 degrees temperature.

 

joey

 

 

In February this season, Pat was up to 22 sleds now.  He's doing it as a side job in his home shop.  The first one was around 3hrs 45 minutes.  Now he see's a trend in the first 3~4 measurements, then he already knows what shims to put in.  Now it takes him 1hr 45 minutes to do a complete GNR.

 

My other test guy Jack is at 11 sleds.

I have a private guy in Calgary who's done over a dozen sleds now.   Both guys at around 2.5~3.0 hours to do the job.

 

I got to be there in Revelstoke (Keystone) and we tested in some decent pulls getting up to 305 deg.  After GNR alignment then 195~220 degrees and that was pushing it, come back and have to sit and take a break (p00ped).

 

Pat's done his 850T with stage 3 power and a 20 top gear and the belt alarm rarely goes off.  There is a 45 deg difference (on average) from the belt alarm temp to reading it with a temp gun.  The belt alarm measures as-running.  So you have all these dynamic things happening; belt motion, air movement, etc.  When you measure with temp gun, you are stopped and engine off.  There seems to be about 45 deg difference between the two categories of measuring temperature.

 

Made a believer out of me

https://www.gripnrip...troller=product

 

 



#7 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 02 April 2021 - 10:28 AM

The method with the paperwork looks daunting or overwhelming at first, but once you get into it and follow Tim's instructions, then you get eager to do more measuring and work.  The torque tool mounted between the primary and secondary open-your-eyes and let you see in slow motion of whats happening under the hood when you on/off throttle. 

 

Ive had local guys come into my shop and start talking about their alignment and can rap off the measurements and I find this; for them it was like learning another language.  I had Steve from here in the city talk to Pat on speaker phone in WA and my buddy in Calgary, and its neat to sit there and listen to them talk to each other in "measurements" - like they are speaking a different language.  hahaha.  Anyhoo, after Steve went and did his sled up, i lent him the tools, he got the shim kits from Tim(gnr) now Steve did not blow a belt all this winter, same 571 drive belt and steve is a "wheelie pirate".   52 yr old going on 18, wheelie all the time and that just heats up belts a lot and dont really go anywhere.....fkin kids.  hahaha :lol:



#8 Gin la pine

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Posted 02 April 2021 - 10:31 AM

Theres no wobble built in the 850 pb80.....unless thing changed but when they first made it they werent even aware...i know the guy who designed it...



#9 TheGreyGhost

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Posted 02 April 2021 - 12:02 PM

Why would you want to change to another clutch??? I was young and dumb once and swapped my clutches on a 08 XP to a team primary and secondary. The primary blew up within 50km and couldn’t get warranty. I then swapped everything back to doo. Was a big waste of money for minimal gains. Both were weighted properly and set up. If you set up these clutches on the new sleds, they will outperform “setup” aftermarket clutches. Dynamo Joe has a awesome kit that’s been proven time and time and time and time and time and time again. Plus he’s a clutch wizard so please listen to what he has to say. I personally love the clutches on my 17 and 19. Easy to pull apart, easy to tune, and they run really good!


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#10 jack-danels

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Posted 02 April 2021 - 06:13 PM

To those that say there isn't an imbalance or wobble built into the pDrive clutch, there certainly is. There is a 0.024" runout on the sheave which is intended to keep the belt at a constant tension, and reduce vibrations. 

 

I'm not certain which way I'm going to go with my primary yet, little bit disappointed with the close minded naysayers who can't understand what I'm trying to do, but I'm here for feedback. I don't get to choose what someone else posts on a public forum.

There are aspects of the pDrive which I find quite attractive. Clickers, and being able to easily adjust flywheights on the hill being the two major ones. I like the idea of using the clutch to reduce vibrations, but I'm not sure that the elevated temperatures are worth it. 

 

If a DJ kit can bring the temps down enough that sure is one very possible option. I've put his kits on all of my previous sleds, and a lot of my friends sleds. So If he says his kit with the GNR alignment will get er done, well I have to give that some serious thought

 

The CV Tech clutch is also very attractive as I have talked to several people from all brands through the years who have switched the the PB80, every single one of them raves about the switch. Problem is information on them regarding the 850s is almost nonexistent. The CV Tech clutch would also be the next easiest clutch to tune on the hill.

 

The Polaris is less of an option, because well, putting a Polaris part on a Ski Doo just doesn't seem right. At least CV Tech is keeping it in the family, sort of. Their practically Ski Doo, right next door anyways...

 

I just want the best possible clutching, which means efficiency which means less heat, and as I've stated before I don't like the amount of heat being dumped into the crank. With no clear answer as to why there have been so many PTO failures, anything I can do to promote longevity and reliability.

 

Man Grip'N'Rip has some awesome YouTube videos! Got sucked down that rabbit hole for a bit, but well worth it!

 

I had planned on installing a DooDr floating secondary, but after seeing his videos I'm not sure. My static alignment numbers are good, but now I'm thinking I should buy his kit. Regardless of which clutch I choose I can always align the motor the the pDrive 


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2009 Summit 800 156 x 3"
2015 Summit 800 X T3 174

#11 racnooc

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Posted 02 April 2021 - 06:27 PM

I say go for it, trying new Ideas and changing things up is how things improve.  I remember yamadoopolcat was really big on one of the P clutches for the 800r, however he had to have it milled to get the right taper for the drive shaft.  I hope the different set up works the way you expect it too and if it does or doesn't I would like to hear the results.


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#12 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 02 April 2021 - 07:41 PM

im not saying dont do an alternate primary clutch.  I only said from a heat standpoint of what we seen, what we did and what results happened.

 

The PB80 has a big selection of springs to straighten out the shift and easy to change weights.

https://www.cvtech-a...ring-chart.html

 

The PowerBloc clutch was the very first clutch I got to tune when i was 10 or 11.  My dad put it on my 72 Olympic 399 and give me some pointers on what to do....

...and here we are today.  hahaha :revinmotion:



#13 jack-danels

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Posted 02 April 2021 - 09:03 PM

I say go for it, trying new Ideas and changing things up is how things improve.  I remember yamadoopolcat was really big on one of the P clutches for the 800r, however he had to have it milled to get the right taper for the drive shaft.  I hope the different set up works the way you expect it too and if it does or doesn't I would like to hear the results.

 

As I value these forums for their wealth of information I will definitely post my conclusion/findings.

...Unless I forget, haha... In which case remind me next winter


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#14 jack-danels

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Posted 02 April 2021 - 09:16 PM

im not saying dont do an alternate primary clutch.  I only said from a heat standpoint of what we seen, what we did and what results happened.

 

The PB80 has a big selection of springs to straighten out the shift and easy to change weights.

https://www.cvtech-a...ring-chart.html

 

The PowerBloc clutch was the very first clutch I got to tune when i was 10 or 11.  My dad put it on my 72 Olympic 399 and give me some pointers on what to do....

...and here we are today.  hahaha :revinmotion:

 

I seem to remember you writing somewhere that you were still undecided as to how you felt about the runout built into these clutches. 

What's your opinion now?

 

You bring up a good point which has been on my mind. The design of the PowerBloc appears to be similar to that of what some would call a "vintage" clutch design. Is that what you're referring to? Is a modern clutch really that much better, or have we just gotten carried away over complicating the issue.

You're old enough to have been told to KISS it.

Not trying to call you out or anything like that, just trying to have a conversation with someone who's knowledge and experience on the matter far exceeds mine.

 

When I look at the PowerBloc I see a clutch that would produce a very linear result; which to me seems like it would pair very well with an Etec.


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#15 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 11:00 AM

Does not matter to me if the "wobble" is there or not.  Just like me not getting on the bandwagon of making adjustable clutch weights;  I have to assume that BRP did a competent job making this mechanical feature.

 

The "wobble" is an intelligent design and I assume it works as intended.

I read a CVT Transmission book from SAE and that wobble was invented by a engineer in Japan im guessing in the early 90s maybe earlier; no dates.

The engineer design to overcome unbalance forces in an inline 4 cylinder.  Instead of having a counterbalance shaft inside the engine making the engine more heavy, he thought to use the CVT transmission itself as a counterbalance structure.

 

@Jack-Danels)When I look at the PowerBloc I see a clutch that would produce a very linear result; which to me seems like it would pair very well with an Etec.

Joe) Aaen logic chart in back of tuning handbook says 

IF need more engine speed at top speed, THEN increase spring final force

if need more engine speed.jpg

 

IF need less engine speed at top speed, THEN decrease spring final force

if need less engine speed.jpg

 

IF need more engine speed at low speed, THEN increase spring start force

if need more bottom end engine speed.jpg

 

IF need less engine speed at low speed, THEN decrease spring start force.

 

Then its the spring selection compared to the ramp curve that brings a linear result.  Now, does it matter what primary clutch IF you have the spring selection?  :lol:







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