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XM summit - RPMs won't climb when stuck in deep snow


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#1 poissonn

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Posted 17 November 2020 - 09:52 AM

So last year I've been chasing an issue that I didn't have the previous years with my '13 summit X 154 2.5". Whenever I get stuck in deep (or wet) snow, the engine loses rpm all the way to roughly 6500 rpm. Once stuck, if I nail it again, it won't climb above that. It is getting very frustrating and makes it hard to get unstuck!

 

Throttle response is also not very crisp, I always have a 1-2 seconds of delay before the engine revs to 8000 in normal conditions, which makes it a bit tricky to ride around trees always trying to compensate for that 1-2 secs.

 

Current clutch setup is the following with 21/49 gearing at sea level: 

 

160/380 or 160/350 primary spring (will open it to check it out)

441 ramps

pin weight adjusted for 7900/8000 rpm

 

Stock 40* helix

Black 157/303 spring

 

I was thinking of switching the secondary spring back to the stock blue spring, but I was thinking this would probably only make the problem worse. 

 

Maybe it's something else than clutching? All help is appreciated!


Edited by poissonn, 17 November 2020 - 05:50 PM.


#2 2019gen4165

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Posted 17 November 2020 - 11:02 AM

What maintenance have you done in the last two years? 



#3 poissonn

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Posted 17 November 2020 - 11:26 AM

Clutches are cleaned every season.

 

I've also replaced both clutch springs last year following that issue. O-rings are new and every bushings/rollers are in spec according to Doo service manual. 

 

Compression is 145 on each cylinder.

 

I've read of possible issues with fuel regulator being loose so I've taken a look a it but it looks fine. All 3 fuel filters replaced. I'm about to pull the trigger on a new regulator and fuel pump, but was looking for advices on here first just in case...


Edited by poissonn, 17 November 2020 - 11:53 AM.


#4 bnorth

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Posted 17 November 2020 - 11:53 AM

What track length? You're geared too high unless maybe you are under 170# and it's a 146. I would run a 19T top gear. I don't think that's all your issue though. I had a similar issue where I would make rpm on hard pack but not in powder and it was because my aftermarket spring cup had a chunk come off and was limiting primary movement. The black spring should aid in backshift which should actually be helping. The lazy throttle response does it bog or does it stutter like it's hitting the rpm rate of increase limiter? Have you cleaned raves?


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#5 poissonn

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Posted 17 November 2020 - 12:17 PM

It's a 154 2.5" and I weight 150. The gearing is actually the OEM configuration for sea level. Should I switch to 19T? 

 

Throttle response is more like bogging a little before revving all the way to 8000 when not in too deep stuff.

 

My clutch assembly is quite old at around 8000 miles even though if I've replaced all components around 2000 miles ago. Perhaps, something's wrong with it. I will reinspect it because the behavior you described ressembles what is happening with mine now.


Edited by poissonn, 17 November 2020 - 05:50 PM.


#6 jack-danels

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Posted 17 November 2020 - 12:43 PM

So last year I've been chasing an issue that I didn't have the previous years with my '13 summit X. Whenever I get stuck in deep (or wet) snow, the engine loses rpm all the way to roughly 6500 rpm. Once stuck, if I nail it again, it won't climb above that. It is getting very frustrating and makes it hard to get unstuck!

Throttle response is also not very crisp, I always have a 1-2 seconds of delay before the engine revs to 8000 in normal conditions, which makes it a bit tricky to ride around trees always trying to compensate for that 1-2 secs.

Current clutch setup is the following with 21/49 gearing:

160/380 PL/PK primary spring
441 ramps
pin weight adjusted for 7900/8000 rpm

Stock 40* helix
Black 157/303 spring

I was thinking of switching the secondary spring back to the stock blue spring, but I was thinking this would probably only make the problem worse.

Maybe it's something else than clutching? All help is appreciated!

If a new problem develops long after any parts have been changed/added then the problem is most likely maintenance related. Although clicker position could be creating part of your issue.

Check:

All movable clutch components (including bushings)for excessive wear and binding. OEM rollers in the secondary have a reputation for exploding (can see them through the helix) hi-tech rollers out of BC are the only rollers I use.

Reeds, OEM tend to be the most reliable, but even they fail.

Sparkplugs, leads, anything that could cause a weak spark.
Sparkplugs need to be indexed on etec engines. Ground strap must not be between the spark and injector

It could also be fuel related.
Pump could be worn out (automotive pump can be used to save $$$, same pump different source)
Regulator could be faulty or have some trash stuck in it. The housing can also be faulty allowing the regulator to be pushed past it's retainer. There is a recall for this, it's basically a band around the regulator with "wishers" incorporated into the top and bottom. It holds the regulator down and prevents the housing from deforming.

Raves. Sticky or malfunctioning raves can definitely cause bogging and throttle response issues

Compression. Easy to check while you're there. Should be 140+psi, within 10psi of eachother. Throttle wide open, gauge reset before each cylinder.

These would be the first things I'd check and as I said at the beginning if the problem developed long after and changes then it's most likely a maintenance issue and not a clutch tuning issue. That's like changing a wiring harness before checking the fuse.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

Edited by jack-danels, 17 November 2020 - 12:54 PM.

1998 Summit 670 X 151
2009 Summit 800 156 x 3"
2015 Summit 800 X T3 174

#7 bnorth

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Posted 17 November 2020 - 01:06 PM

It's a 154 and I weight 150. The gearing is actually the OEM configuration for sea level. Should I switch to 19T? 

 

Throttle response is more like bogging a little before revving all the way to 8000 when not in too deep stuff.

 

My clutch assembly is quite old at around 8000 miles even though if I've replaced all components around 2000 miles ago. Perhaps, something's wrong with it. I will reinspect it because the behavior you described ressembles what is happening with mine now.

Are you at sea level or in the mountains?


2019 Alpha 800 165

1997 Kitty Cat

 

Previous:

17 174 SP

14 163X

05 Vertical Composites 1000 162

05 RT1000 162


#8 poissonn

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Posted 17 November 2020 - 02:02 PM

I'm at sea level, so I was thinking of keeping the 21T. 

 

The sled is in pieces right now so I'll go through everything jack mentionned above! I'm also pretty sure it is maintenance related, i.e. part is worn or not working properly. 



#9 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 17 November 2020 - 04:49 PM

Black   160/303

Blue    160/230 (this will make it worse and lose engine speed earlier...haha)

Purple 231/303  BRP#417127062....<<< go to this one Buddy.



#10 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 17 November 2020 - 05:14 PM

Aaen Pg 24.  The higher the spring load, the more RPM or heavier weights are needed to overcome it.  Spring force can be used to influence the "shift curve" and obtain a desirable "straight shift"

 

IF the engine speed is drifting low (below its power peak) THEN the spring force is not providing a "straight shift".

Ok, the spring chart has color coded spring lines to show the 3 springs mentioned above.

IF you're losing engine speed (its drifting low) THEN at-that-track speed (example 70kmh(42mph)) the spring force being used at-that-track speed is too low.

 

Aaen Pg 24.  The higher the spring load, the more RPM........are needed to overcome it.  Then a higher spring force at that problem track speed should make a more "straight shift", either lose less engine speed or not lose engine speed.

 

If you went to the blue spring, you'd lose engine speed earlier in the track speed.

The blue line is off 10 pounds too high on the end force, should be 220, not 230,  but im not going to make another picture...

poisson spring.JPG



#11 poissonn

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Posted 17 November 2020 - 05:33 PM

Black   160/303

Blue    160/230 (this will make it worse and lose engine speed earlier...haha)

Purple 231/303  BRP#417127062....<<< go to this one Buddy.

 

Purple spring with 40* helix? Won't this make the primary pull on the belt a bit too much with a spring that stiff? I actually think I read that somewhere on your website  :lol:


Edited by poissonn, 17 November 2020 - 05:33 PM.


#12 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 17 November 2020 - 05:53 PM

Purple spring with 40* helix? Won't this make the primary pull on the belt a bit too much with a spring that stiff? I actually think I read that somewhere on your website  :lol:

Okydoky then....

Green 180/303

Dalton red 200/305

Dalton red/yellow 218/305



#13 Daag44

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Posted 20 November 2020 - 10:18 PM

Seeing that In normal conditions there is always a delay of 1-2 seconds before the engine revs to 8000 rpm, that sounds so much like fuel pressure. And it is worse when it gets gets stuck, so again it sounds like fuel pressure. I can't think of anything else that could remotely cause this, but it should show on a stand with a fuel pressure gauge and multiple on/off full throttle.

 

When hitting the throttle and the power lags behind for a second every time and in all conditions, there isn't anything that I can think of that can do this. The CVT is the component that can make a problem appear like a lack of fuel, but once you get used to both scenarios they are not the same. For example a weak secondary spring will overshift and loose power, but the power won't magically recover like nothing happened, nor will it recover each and every time like it is being described with normal conditions, which I assume is the trail portion of the ride.

 

A poor running fuel pump will take time to build enough pressure on demand. After a brief moment the fuel pressure will build and that's when the engine kicks in.  When the demand is high and constant, the rpm will drop due to lack of power. Of course this is only one particular type of fuel pump issue, but it can be seen when riding with either a fuel pressure gauge or Wideband. The pressure will drop 10 or so psi, and the wideband will show lean and off the scale, and then recover but with a pressure that is at least several psi lower than [email protected] psi.

 

If you take the time to describe the problem further with different scenarios, it will become clear. Either way the fuel pressure gauge is the first tool for diagnosing this type of problem. It is inexpensive to buy and easy to build a setup for the E-TEC. On a stand you won't see the pressure drop like it would while riding, but it will drop a few psi on a stand. The work will also be a lot easier than fiddling with the clutches.

 

If you decide to bring it to a BRP dealer, an experienced tech should be able to see this problem, especially if they compare with another E-TEC. Feel free to copy this reply and see what they think. But the price tag will be much higher. 


Edited by Daag44, 09 January 2021 - 08:55 PM.

Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R P-TEK Electrical Troubleshooting #1 and #2 
800R Turbo
850 Center Oil line for coolant pump melted
850 Main Oil line caught fire #1 and #2
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's and Ronn's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
Crankshaft runout - maximum allowable specs 
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Electrical - ECM drivers for Ignition Coils and E-TEC injectors 
Electrical - Diagnoses of a failed ECM
Electrical - 30A Battery Charging Fuse Socket Diagnoses and Relay
Electrical - Relay Coil Wine
Electrical - Relay Testing
Electrical - Battery Charging Relay Diagnostic 
Electrical - Troubleshooting with BRP video 
Electrical - Solder vs Crimp
Electrical - Diagram for Fanners on page 3
Engine Break-In 
Engine Weight 
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Electric Start troubleshooting
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC eRAVE position code recurring
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
E-TEC Voltage Rectifier Regulator troubleshooting
E-TEC Power Fades are not normal and can be fixed
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 Steering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Longevity - 800R E-TEC 
Mikuni o-ring for carb float assembly - Arctic Cat part# 6505-875 or from Amazon and eBay
Muffler Red Hot
Off-trail riding for flatlanders
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pictures - How to post with the correct orientation
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Power Loss - How to diagnose in the field
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Spark Plugs cracked
Squish - The limit
Squish - A discussion on head design
Stator and Relay Diagnostic 
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator Removal on page 3
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#14 Daag44

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Posted 20 November 2020 - 11:11 PM

This reminds me of a project I once tried to undertake, a cheat sheet for power loss. I still remember the first time that I looked at Dynamo^Joe's web site with details on power loss for the SDI. I though it was brilliant, and it became obvious why he would focus on power loss. If the engine wasn't performing, the first suspect was always the clutching which would drive me nuts knowing the clutch kit worked. This was back in 2012. It took several years before I got a better grasp of why he was having so much trouble with the Renegade 1K SDI. Fast forward another several years and he installed a wideband on his E-TEC. The Wideband shows fuel delivery problems immediately. But what do you do if you don't have a Wideband?
 
Once you know how a sled reacts when there is an electrical issue and the engine cuts-out completely like hitting the kill switch, or an eRAVE issue like the exhaust valves drop which causes an obvious drop in the engine tone,  or a full fuel delivery cut-out like when the fuel sump empties and does not recover until letting go of the throttle, or a momentary loss of power in transient loads when the fuel pump has trouble keeping up, then it becomes so much easier to diagnose on the trail.
 
An electrical cut-out and fuel cut-out both suffer a major power loss, but they are not the same. Suffice to hit the kill switch for a comparison. It would need a very specific and rare electrical issue to mimic a fuel cut-out, and even then the electrical issue such as a loose ground or intermittent stator would show-up as sporadic compared to a fuel cut-out that can be repeated on demand.
 
An exhaust valve issue is also different as it will either drop the valve and show an audible low tone change that is remarkable, or a constant movement of the valves that shows up as a constant on/off of full power with intervals of a second or so. It may sound familiar to a fuel pressure recovery of a second or so, but this particular fuel pressure issue will not cycle like this exhaust valve issue.
 
I guess that I did finally complete the project. I only gave 5 scenarios including one for the CVT. Obviously there are more, but these are the common ones that I focus one.
 
The key is in how the power is recovered.

Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R P-TEK Electrical Troubleshooting #1 and #2 
800R Turbo
850 Center Oil line for coolant pump melted
850 Main Oil line caught fire #1 and #2
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's and Ronn's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
Crankshaft runout - maximum allowable specs 
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Electrical - ECM drivers for Ignition Coils and E-TEC injectors 
Electrical - Diagnoses of a failed ECM
Electrical - 30A Battery Charging Fuse Socket Diagnoses and Relay
Electrical - Relay Coil Wine
Electrical - Relay Testing
Electrical - Battery Charging Relay Diagnostic 
Electrical - Troubleshooting with BRP video 
Electrical - Solder vs Crimp
Electrical - Diagram for Fanners on page 3
Engine Break-In 
Engine Weight 
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Electric Start troubleshooting
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC eRAVE position code recurring
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
E-TEC Voltage Rectifier Regulator troubleshooting
E-TEC Power Fades are not normal and can be fixed
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 Steering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Longevity - 800R E-TEC 
Mikuni o-ring for carb float assembly - Arctic Cat part# 6505-875 or from Amazon and eBay
Muffler Red Hot
Off-trail riding for flatlanders
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pictures - How to post with the correct orientation
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Power Loss - How to diagnose in the field
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Spark Plugs cracked
Squish - The limit
Squish - A discussion on head design
Stator and Relay Diagnostic 
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator Removal on page 3
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#15 poissonn

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Posted 21 November 2020 - 10:39 PM

Daag, Joe, 

 

Thanks for your detailed answers.

 

Regarding clutching, I'm definately going to test with purple/purple spring back to back with blue & black so I can get a feel of the different springs on the QRS! Tonight I dissasembled it and the rollers inner diameter were near the service limit according to doo manual which is 8.5mm. One was around 8.33mm and the other around 8.47mm. Anyone know what is the diameter of a new piece? 

 

I also checked the primary and all buttons are below service limit of 7.95mm at around 7.88-7.91mm. I'm not sure though if that would have any impact seeing the service limit for a 600etec is lower at 7.45mm. 

 

I'm basically going to go through all the stuff you guys suggested. I'm going to measure all bushings of both clutches and put new springs in. 

 

I have already ordered new fuel filter as well as pump strainer...Will try to test the fuel pump pressure as well. I actually found a post (but can't find it again) of either daag or joe that posted videos of or '15 or '16 800 etec with a fuel pump pressure test at idle. One was at 42psi and once the pump was replaced it was at 45psi...

 

Now that I'm thinking about it, my '13 800 etec never started well, especially when really cold out. It ALWAYS starts, but dies right away and feel like running on a single cylinder. Then I hit the starter another time and it will keeping running roughly until I give it some throttle and then it clears up and runs fine the rest of the day. I always thought it was an ECU software issue though...


Edited by poissonn, 21 November 2020 - 10:41 PM.





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