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Clutch Tuning


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#16 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 15 July 2020 - 08:35 AM

Years ago, I took a course on small business.  In it, I was tasked to do research for a business plan and come up with my findings on "what IS the market you're in".  Searching around, I got information from a Michigan Insurance company.  They know everything, including how many tickets you take to wipe.(im exaggerating, but you get the point)...unreal what they keep stats on.

 

At the time there was 2.4 million registered and insured snowmobiles in N.America and about 650k in Euro/Scandinavia.  The aftermarket industry taps into about 6% of all of snowmobiling.  Its a 1.8 Billion $ industry (That's with a "B"....billion) and only taps into about 6% of all snowmobile ownership in the world.

 

...anyhoo, I use these words specifically - the "capacity" of the sled for the amount of use it gets, meets and/or exceeds the "ability" of 94 to 96% of owners, so then stock is "good", people dont have to fuss with it.  It takes a lot of time of occupation on the seat, driving, using natural skill, learned skill, pushing yourself, making mistakes, to get accustomed (accustomed is; being comfortable with how hard you push the sled) and be habituated with the sled, and eventually "want more capacity"' which is what I supply "more capacity" as a business model when the driver eventually thinks he "needs" such an enhancement.

 

Me, as a "clutch guy" who taps into the market, I tap into a "fraction of a fraction" of the 6% market regarding transmission performance enhancement.  The percentage of the market I tap into is very small. 

 

A7M266D (Jamie) from what I know about him, I would say he's in that 6% and at a higher degree, high probability in the 1% of the market of ability for the amount of seat time, miles and "how" he drives the sled in a competitive manner and what he "needs for speed" out of the sled.  My niche is pointed towards that category of rider where "stock is good" aint good enough.

 

Where im going with is just to reiterate;

  • the "capacity" of the sled for the amount of use it gets, meets and/or exceeds the "ability" of 94 to 96% of owners...

...so then stock is "good", people dont have to fuss with it.  BRP clutching "ease" of tune-ability is limited (clicker change), but its a grand canyon gap of tune-ability compared to other brands.

 

But then one can fuss with the clutching, putting time/effort/energy/mistakes/testing/testing and more testing; eventually can eat-stock's-lunch.

You only know what you know by the amount and kind of testing you've disposed yourself to.  Rich knows what he knows and other tuners know different things Rich doesn't know.  (never had the opportunity to test in x or y categories or not been disposed to challenges outside of the scope of what he does and/or talks about in his area where he is)

 

People have a comfort-zone and may not venture outside of it.

 

 



#17 jcjc

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Posted 15 July 2020 - 10:19 AM

last year was my first time on a mountain sled and as my younger riding buddies told me, these new sleds are incredibly capable and they were absolutely right. they were sorta pushing me to find a decent used summit 800 as a first machine but i couldn't resist a new, blue freeride. anyway, the one thing that i felt was lacking even as a noob was the factory clutching and specifically the high engagement it had. i got used to it by the end of the day on the first time out but that's what made me pull the trigger on your clutch kit. the lower engagement and overall smoothness really contrasted with the factory set up. so much so that my two buddies bought kits for their 800 summits after riding my sled as they were also surprised at the difference and they're not really sledheads, they mostly use them for access to backcountry snowboarding areas but the difference was enough to sway them.

so clutching is a wise area for aftermarket companies to explore because there's plenty of improvement to be had.

also, what is the logic behind the factory's high engagement?


Edited by jcjc, 15 July 2020 - 01:34 PM.


#18 Mach21

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Posted 15 July 2020 - 05:29 PM

There are plenty of people who prefer a little higher engagement(me being one of them). I don’t particularly like when a high performance sled engages low. Everybody likes different things in their sled preferences as we all know. After riding my buddies 850’s, I found the stock clutching to be very good imo.

Now I have my own new( my first Gen 4) ‘21 850 coming this fall. Looking very forward to it.

Edited by Mach21, 15 July 2020 - 07:41 PM.


#19 jcjc

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Posted 15 July 2020 - 05:54 PM

Congrats on the new sled and true enough, people like different set ups and although I’m new to this sport, I can’t imagine where a higher engagement would benefit me.
Other than the high engagement, I had no qualms with the stock clutching but once I put the kit on, the difference in overall performance was immediately apparent to myself and others and that’ll be the first “accessory” I put on any new sled. Easy to install too.


Edited by jcjc, 15 July 2020 - 07:13 PM.


#20 A7M266D

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Posted 15 July 2020 - 07:58 PM

Most guys also have very little comprehension of the clutch components or what they do. Add to the fact a lot of guys buy a new sled and immediately install “X” clutch kit. They don’t even know what problem if any the kit even fixed.

I tell everyone the same thing ride it, and ride it and ride it. Find it’s limitations, break it’s back with hard long pulls, get it so hot the belt does goofy things, then make changes and do it again. Once you can find and identify the short comings then you will know if “X” kit corrects things.

Oh and feel free to toss a different belt on when testing and do it all over again 🤣🤣🤣
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#21 jcjc

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Posted 15 July 2020 - 09:03 PM

That's generally good advice but for me the high engagement was annoying from the get-go and I knew from reading the forums that others felt the same, and that a clutch kit was the solution. I'd love to get out and test but my riding time is limited due to the fact that the guys I ride with can only go on weekends and often have other obligations on those weekends so I just can't get the time in to ride and test. The proof that I made the right choice despite my skepticism was the first ride with the new clutch kit and how well it performed with lower engagement rpm, smoothness, and power delivery. 



#22 djm

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Posted 15 July 2020 - 09:03 PM

Most guys also have very little comprehension of the clutch components or what they do. Add to the fact a lot of guys buy a new sled and immediately install “X” clutch kit. They don’t even know what problem if any the kit even fixed.

I tell everyone the same thing ride it, and ride it and ride it. Find it’s limitations, break it’s back with hard long pulls, get it so hot the belt does goofy things, then make changes and do it again. Once you can find and identify the short comings then you will know if “X” kit corrects things.

Oh and feel free to toss a different belt on when testing and do it all over again

 

Ha ha.. and some peeps have clutch tools in the truck, clutch tools at home, clutch tools up north and every Doo spring and ramp known to man... 

 

because they can never learn enough and never go as fast or quick or slow as they want..   

 

jcjc; usually engagement is lowered by finding a primary spring that has a lower engagement force and if you are happy with your max rpm's one with the same max force and swap the spring.  That handles the engagement issue.  When the Pdrive came out with the 2017 850 well it was on the race sleds before that - but they weren't concerned with low clutch engagement.  There weren't many springs with low engagement force for that clutch.  I see doo has one or two now and Dalton has about 3 of them.  I wound up find a secondary spring that fit over the Pdrive hub and work for me.  I too like low engagement when poking around in the woods exploring. 


Edited by djm, 15 July 2020 - 09:15 PM.


#23 krm

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 04:40 AM

Likes been already stated ,Ride it see what it does and tune from there .I tend now with the new e tec and turbo sled to run less studs ,lower engagement ,load it hard down low and in the mid ,then let it eat up top .Matching  the skid to the clutching is the secret ,lucky i have a test track out behind my shop .Also, a belt change will most times need a new set up .At around 2k miles on the OEM belts you ''ll see rpm changing ,this is when a new belt is needed .



#24 Meat Head

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 06:25 AM

Give me long studs,hi engagement and an ice road...
Everyone wants something different, thats what drives the need for tuning.
Stock is good for 90 percent of riders. These sleds are more capable than their owners talents. Then mix in stupid, now we have stock sleds good for a higher number..
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#25 2020tnt

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 07:45 AM

I started this topic mearly to see if people tested 970 ramps, vs HRSS, SHR, etc. Just looking for real world results. I know my way around a TRA, I has purchased my 2020 TNT 850 in March. It's still in break-in mode, and being stock, I am impressed with the performance. I found the clutches, belt were to hot to hold. The rpms were locked on 7900. Obviously I need less primary spring finish, or heavier ramps.

#26 A7M266D

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 09:09 AM

I started this topic mearly to see if people tested 970 ramps, vs HRSS, SHR, etc. Just looking for real world results. I know my way around a TRA, I has purchased my 2020 TNT 850 in March. It's still in break-in mode, and being stock, I am impressed with the performance. I found the clutches, belt were to hot to hold. The rpms were locked on 7900. Obviously I need less primary spring finish, or heavier ramps.


I’ve tried ZRP,HRSS,SHR,Heelclicker, Dalton, and stock weights. There all able to be tuned to give similar characteristics. Is there an all out best that really stands out not really. It comes down to the tuners guys are buying the kids from and the time they and YOU are willing to put into your sled.

My preference is the Dalton weight or the BRP weight with the popeye from DJ that makes a considerable difference in ability to squeeze the belt down low and stop the 850 surge when crawling.
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#27 Meat Head

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 10:45 AM

I started this topic mearly to see if people tested 970 ramps, vs HRSS, SHR, etc. Just looking for real world results. I know my way around a TRA, I has purchased my 2020 TNT 850 in March. It's still in break-in mode, and being stock, I am impressed with the performance. I found the clutches, belt were to hot to hold. The rpms were locked on 7900. Obviously I need less primary spring finish, or heavier ramps.

7900 is a good number, why is it obvious you need less rpm via weights or spring?
I seen more succes with securing the motor in the right spot and the correct belt to match vs a large clutch swing. Start with the mounts and work towards clutching. Otherwise you will be casing a ghost. Just my take on it.
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#28 jcjc

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 11:08 AM

Ha ha.. and some peeps have clutch tools in the truck, clutch tools at home, clutch tools up north and every Doo spring and ramp known to man... 

 

because they can never learn enough and never go as fast or quick or slow as they want..   

 

jcjc; usually engagement is lowered by finding a primary spring that has a lower engagement force and if you are happy with your max rpm's one with the same max force and swap the spring.  That handles the engagement issue.  When the Pdrive came out with the 2017 850 well it was on the race sleds before that - but they weren't concerned with low clutch engagement.  There weren't many springs with low engagement force for that clutch.  I see doo has one or two now and Dalton has about 3 of them.  I wound up find a secondary spring that fit over the Pdrive hub and work for me.  I too like low engagement when poking around in the woods exploring. 

I'm running joe's kit which has the dalton wh/bl/blk primary spring which is normally 170/385 and according to the invoice it's been modded to 155/375. i also removed the spring cup to lower the engagement further but was told this will cause undue wear over time and was subsequently advised against doing that, which makes sense. i'll put the spring cup back in before the season starts during my pre-season checklist.

Venom has a primary spring with a 5lb less start weight but that's prolly within the tolerance so i doubt that's even noticeable.



#29 2020tnt

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 01:02 PM

Just a quick note, I've been a long time member on Doo Talk. My former name on here was zzzman.

#30 djm

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 01:19 PM

I’ve tried ZRP,HRSS,SHR,Heelclicker, Dalton, and stock weights. There all able to be tuned to give similar characteristics. Is there an all out best that really stands out not really. It comes down to the tuners guys are buying the kids from and the time they and YOU are willing to put into your sled.

My preference is the Dalton weight or the BRP weight with the popeye from DJ that makes a considerable difference in ability to squeeze the belt down low and stop the 850 surge when crawling.

 

Fuel calibration...me thinks...






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