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#16 Zack Watters

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Posted 06 June 2020 - 12:48 AM

As soon as you said you don't want to compromise reliability you lost this endeavor. Tuning the 600sdi for boost will be a nightmare 2nd only to tuning carbs for boost.  

You and Daag give me hope  :D Good thing that SDI is not dead last



#17 613rev

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Posted 06 June 2020 - 02:02 PM

Buy a factory installed turbo 4 stroke, you will spend more than one is worth trying to put one on a 600 2 stroke.You have a better chance of getting a date with Jennifer Anniston than you do of making it start and be rideable. And no offence, but if you don’t understand carb jetting, you don’t even have a fundamental grasp of the basics.

#18 Zack Watters

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Posted 06 June 2020 - 04:32 PM

Buy a factory installed turbo 4 stroke, you will spend more than one is worth trying to put one on a 600 2 stroke.You have a better chance of getting a date with Jennifer Anniston than you do of making it start and be rideable. And no offence, but if you don’t understand carb jetting, you don’t even have a fundamental grasp of the basics.

I know that if you make a tuned exhaust that is not stock you will likely have to change jetting, basically if you make any changes which make your sled run too lean or too rich you will have replace the jets. I get how all of the components inside a snowmobile work together in the sled, I just do not know which jets cause a specific outcome. I do not know torque specs off hand but I can eventually find them online, my view of jetting is the same way.


Edited by Zack Watters, 06 June 2020 - 04:34 PM.


#19 Daag44

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Posted 06 June 2020 - 07:32 PM

At most I would probably only want/need 2lbs of boost. That being said, that is the max id plan for  :D the 1lb of boost with about 10 extra horsepower would be something I would be happy with
 
For as far as snowmobiles go I know how they work, at least as far as two-strokes go. I do not understand jetting or how SDI works with the injectors, but I can look into that. as far as stock sleds go I know where everything goes and some basics on how to tell what is wrong with an engine. I usually fix it by just replacing parts, I got lucky with a cat I was working on and did not have to buy any new parts. I just do not know how the turbo will change how the engine runs and the modifications that need to be made to install one. I am alright at fabricating items. As far as turbos go though, I have not gotten much validation on what I have read, that being said, the responses I receive are helping a lot. This weekend I will be reading over that forum you sent to get some better background. I don't think I am trying to get my mind off anything, more or less just have fun tinkering and cross my fingers that I wont spend all of what I earn this summer :D
 
Also, In the thread you shared I noticed the section on tuned pipes; While i do not know the exact equations, I do have a program for them which should make life easier if the need to make a tuned pipe arises. I get the general idea as well on how they work

 
Knowing the basics of how they work is a good start. Jetting isn't a problem as it is easy to learn, but hopefully you won't need to. Changing a main jet is relatively easy when in a warm garage, but it does take time. Where it gets complicated is working out the needle and needle jet. I have yet to see owners on DooTalk say it was a pleasure to work out, or that they enjoyed having to find a testing site and return home to change jetting. And you still need to ride back to the trailer or home with a sled that is not tuned. There is enough work for me on a sled that the last thing I want to do is worry about gnarling stuff like that.
 
With a fuel controller you get to stop the sled and make adjustments. You are still guessing with what you see on the Wideband, EGT and how it feels, but at least you are not spending all your time having to go home for any adjustments. Once you are in the ball park then you begin to look at the plugs. That too isn't easy as it means to return home to drill out the casing to read the plugs. And that is only a reading at a set rpm and load. How can you measure the myriad of combinations with plug chops? If you go by only plug chops it will drive you insane before even starting to tune, and it won't tell you if the a/f is good for the engine tune. A Wideband offers an instant measure that you can quickly adjust with a fuel controller, and then take plug readings to confirm.
 
If the plugs are all black at wot and the Wideband is showing 11:1 then you won't be reading much off the plugs anyways. And then you need to figure how the plug heat range plays into it. So even before beginning to convert an SDI or carb to a Turbo, learning how it works with the engine naturally aspirated will go a long way.

Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#20 Daag44

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Posted 06 June 2020 - 07:37 PM

You and Daag give me hope  :D Good thing that SDI is not dead last

 
The SDI is definitely not dead. It was the tech that brought Ski-Doo to the top of their game, and then came the E-TEC. Ironically both techs were being developed at about the same time. BRP was working on the E-TEC well before the first SDI was in the hands of the consumers.


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#21 mike0chek

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Posted 06 June 2020 - 10:39 PM

The Yamaha Viper caught my attention, it scared my wallet away though  :D

Do you by chance have any experience with Turbos on snowmobiles?

ive rode quite a few turbo'd 4strokes but no 2strokes. all of them ran pretty hot trail driving especially the zr's with a tune. ski doos new 850 turbo has the right approach as far as reliability goes imo. makes no more hp then the regular 850 at sea level so parts should hold up the same. start adding boost and i see reliability dropping. are you looking to end up with more hp then before the turbo? is there others that have turbo'd the machine you have?


Edited by mike0chek, 06 June 2020 - 10:48 PM.


#22 mike0chek

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Posted 06 June 2020 - 10:53 PM

I know that if you make a tuned exhaust that is not stock you will likely have to change jetting, basically if you make any changes which make your sled run too lean or too rich you will have replace the jets. I get how all of the components inside a snowmobile work together in the sled, I just do not know which jets cause a specific outcome. I do not know torque specs off hand but I can eventually find them online, my view of jetting is the same way.

this has alot of great info on tuning carbs for 2strokes, great descriptions on how the engine reacts to lean or rich conditions and how to properly adjust 

https://static1.squa...etting-2015.pdf



#23 Zack Watters

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Posted 07 June 2020 - 12:12 AM

 
Knowing the basics of how they work is a good start. Jetting isn't a problem as it is easy to learn, but hopefully you won't need to. Changing a main jet is relatively easy when in a warm garage, but it does take time. Where it gets complicated is working out the needle and needle jet. I have yet to see owners on DooTalk say it was a pleasure to work out, or that they enjoyed having to find a testing site and return home to change jetting. And you still need to ride back to the trailer or home with a sled that is not tuned. There is enough work for me on a sled that the last thing I want to do is worry about gnarling stuff like that.
 
With a fuel controller you get to stop the sled and make adjustments. You are still guessing with what you see on the Wideband, EGT and how it feels, but at least you are not spending all your time having to go home for any adjustments. Once you are in the ball park then you begin to look at the plugs. That too isn't easy as it means to return home to drill out the casing to read the plugs. And that is only a reading at a set rpm and load. How can you measure the myriad of combinations with plug chops? If you go by only plug chops it will drive you insane before even starting to tune, and it won't tell you if the a/f is good for the engine tune. A Wideband offers an instant measure that you can quickly adjust with a fuel controller, and then take plug readings to confirm.
 
If the plugs are all black at wot and the Wideband is showing 11:1 then you won't be reading much off the plugs anyways. And then you need to figure how the plug heat range plays into it. So even before beginning to convert an SDI or carb to a Turbo, learning how it works with the engine naturally aspirated will go a long way.

So if I get the Fuel controller and wideband sensor on my exhaust pipe, does that eliminate the need for jetting or is that stuff you just have for tuning? I know earlier you said I should definitely put a wideband sensor on my exhaust so i am assuming the fuel controller with it would be a permanent thing :D It is good to hear though that I will not have to change the jets

 

As far as checking out the spark plugs go.. when you talk about drilling out the casing, what are you referring to? I got a scary picture in my head of having to drill out the cylinder heads weather that is to add a sensor or something else :lol:My hope is that you just mean to remove the plus to see if they are oily or dry as a bone :D Also also, Thank You!


Edited by Zack Watters, 07 June 2020 - 12:39 AM.


#24 Zack Watters

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Posted 07 June 2020 - 12:14 AM

 
The SDI is definitely not dead. It was the tech that brought Ski-Doo to the top of their game, and then came the E-TEC. Ironically both techs were being developed at about the same time. BRP was working on the E-TEC well before the first SDI was in the hands of the consumers.

That is something I did not know :D that is interesting



#25 Zack Watters

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Posted 07 June 2020 - 12:37 AM

ive rode quite a few turbo'd 4strokes but no 2strokes. all of them ran pretty hot trail driving especially the zr's with a tune. ski doos new 850 turbo has the right approach as far as reliability goes imo. makes no more hp then the regular 850 at sea level so parts should hold up the same. start adding boost and i see reliability dropping. are you looking to end up with more hp then before the turbo? is there others that have turbo'd the machine you have?

I know that there were kits out from CPI to turbo a rev, definitely '04-'07. Pretty sure the '03 rev was included in that as well. From what I had seen on dootalk though, those kits seemed to be for the 800cc variant... I think there were one or two other companies that made kits for the same thing but since it is an "old" sled all the kits seem to be on the second hand market (and they do not seem very common :D) . I mentioned turboing a rev to someone I know who is also a rev owner, they said that they have an In-law who turboed a 1000cc rev which I believe is a '03-'07 with the SDI stuff :lol: As far as what I hope to get out of in in HP, I do not have any target to reach. I am pretty happy with the 600, but if i can get a little extra power out of it I would be happy. Maybe ratings that are more around a 700 conversion? Hopefully that gives you a bench mark  :D If it goes slightly over, slightly under, or right on i would be happy... Currently I feel like the HP an 800+ engine puts out would be too much... Earlier this year my sled learned how to fly into a tree... I do not wanna go to the moon with HP :D Hopefully this long winded paragraph of mine gives you a good idea of what my thoughts are

 

this has alot of great info on tuning carbs for 2strokes, great descriptions on how the engine reacts to lean or rich conditions and how to properly adjust 

https://static1.squa...etting-2015.pdf

And Thank you! I will take a look at this!



#26 Daag44

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Posted 07 June 2020 - 09:06 PM

So if I get the Fuel controller and wideband sensor on my exhaust pipe, does that eliminate the need for jetting or is that stuff you just have for tuning? I know earlier you said I should definitely put a wideband sensor on my exhaust so i am assuming the fuel controller with it would be a permanent thing :D It is good to hear though that I will not have to change the jets
 
As far as checking out the spark plugs go.. when you talk about drilling out the casing, what are you referring to? I got a scary picture in my head of having to drill out the cylinder heads weather that is to add a sensor or something else :lol:My hope is that you just mean to remove the plus to see if they are oily or dry as a bone :D Also also, Thank You!

 
Exactly, they would both be permanent. For the plug reading, the A/F signature is at the low end of the porcelain which is too far down to get a good look without taking apart the plug casing. It is already a pain to do plug chops, so this part keeps adding to it. The plugs on most sleds are black and unreadable, so there is a learning curve.


Edited by Daag44, 07 June 2020 - 09:14 PM.

Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#27 Zack Watters

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Posted 07 June 2020 - 10:56 PM

 
Exactly, they would both be permanent. For the plug reading, the A/F signature is at the low end of the porcelain which is too far down to get a good look without taking apart the plug casing. It is already a pain to do plug chops, so this part keeps adding to it. The plugs on most sleds are black and unreadable, so there is a learning curve.

Alright, that is good news about the fuel regulator, it seems like a simple enough idea  :D the plug thing definitely sounds like a pain, but not unbearable



#28 Daag44

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Posted 07 June 2020 - 11:57 PM

Alright, that is good news about the fuel regulator, it seems like a simple enough idea  :D the plug thing definitely sounds like a pain, but not unbearable


To me it is unbearable, but I guess that it is possible. After playing with this stuff blindfolded for years in the 90s, I have gained a lot of respect for those who kept winning racers. My hat is off them. When I got back into sleds I took a whole different approach which was easier on my nerves. There is still a lot of guess work, but nowhere near what it was 20+ years ago. There is an insatiable amount of noise that surrounds two strokes let alone turbos, so I guess you just need to find a path and work the details.


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#29 bnorth

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Posted 08 June 2020 - 02:19 PM

You and Daag give me hope  :D Good thing that SDI is not dead last

Lol keep up the good vibes, you'll need it to get through this project. I have turboed a lot of things and was very close to building a kit for one of my 1000sdi's but in the end decided against it. Understand that it is unlikely this project will ever be pull and go. It is a great project and I wish you success but realize that it is now a play thing and you'd best have another stock sled to ride as a back up. Even a lot of turbo guys with kits from top notch shops have backup sleds for when the turbo sled is down. I predict you'll spend most of your season just trying to dial in the tuning once you have the kit built. Good Luck!


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#30 Zack Watters

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Posted 08 June 2020 - 07:07 PM

Lol keep up the good vibes, you'll need it to get through this project. I have turboed a lot of things and was very close to building a kit for one of my 1000sdi's but in the end decided against it. Understand that it is unlikely this project will ever be pull and go. It is a great project and I wish you success but realize that it is now a play thing and you'd best have another stock sled to ride as a back up. Even a lot of turbo guys with kits from top notch shops have backup sleds for when the turbo sled is down. I predict you'll spend most of your season just trying to dial in the tuning once you have the kit built. Good Luck!

Thank you! I will definitely take your advice and leave my one sled stock :D i will do some research and wait until i find a cheap enough rev to do this too :lol: when I do this though I will give updates on this






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