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Timing offset and engine bog

timing candoopro bog retarded

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#1 351c

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Posted 17 March 2020 - 05:06 PM

Thought I would share the story of how a bad starter being replaced cost me 1200 peak rpm.. Sorry in advance for the long book.

2018 Renegade 850 XRS, bought it new. At about 8000 miles, pulled off to the side of the trail and the starter failed, wouldn't even freewheel. Never even hiccuped before this. Rope started it and finished the weekend, but you could hear the starter drive dancing around against the ring gear as the engine was running.

Under BEST warranty the dealer replaced the starter, starter drive and flywheel, thank you BRP, almost $2000 canadian in parts.

Got the machine back, started fine, idled a bit choppy, smelled very rich. Wouldn't rev past 6800 RPM and a pig on fuel.

You could hold it to the bar and it wouldn't go past 6800 and eventually would misfire. I wanted it to blow up...

Removed the raves, cleaned them, re-synched them about 3 times, re-validate position, was better and would now rev to 7000rpm.

Checked fuel pressure, 48psi, checked at wot, still 44psi. Tried to blow it up again by holding it to the bar, this time I brought my laptop and candoopro.

Zero knock correction so I figured screw it, I'll bump the timing and recheck for knock correction. Did this about 3 times in 3-2-2 degree increments for a total of 7 degrees advance. Every time it got better until it now pulls 7900 RPM and runs crisp. Fuel economy is the same as the 20.5 XRS I was running with. Now I am going to actually pull the injectors and dial indicator the pto piston and set it to 28 btdc.

Moral of the story is, don't assume the accuracy of the keyway cut in the flywheel. Out 7 degrees ++. I mean, I've degreed in probably 100 camshafts for 4 stroke race engines and never found one to be out more than 3 degrees..

Hope someone else can avoid the aggravation .

 



#2 LeeL

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Posted 17 March 2020 - 10:09 PM

Any chance when they put flywheel on the key way rolled out ? I had this happen on a cat 800 put timing out .



#3 mike0chek

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Posted 17 March 2020 - 10:23 PM

geez 7 degrees is alot to be out. too bad you didnt have the old flywheel to verify they are exactly the same (would think they are)



#4 mike0chek

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Posted 17 March 2020 - 10:35 PM

a 2020 renegade xrs flywheel part number is 420864437. a 2018 renegade flywheel number is 420864431. 

 

hmmm is something different with these??



#5 351c

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Posted 18 March 2020 - 12:39 PM

a 2020 renegade xrs flywheel part number is 420864437. a 2018 renegade flywheel number is 420864431. 

 

hmmm is something different with these??

Good point... just checked and my BEST parts list shows the 431 part number, so should be good. 



#6 351c

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Posted 18 March 2020 - 12:41 PM

Any chance when they put flywheel on the key way rolled out ? I had this happen on a cat 800 put timing out .

Sure hope not... but I guess anything is possible. Once I have true TDC indexed I can verify it throughout the year with a timing light and if it fluctuates or changes then the flywheel is coming off.



#7 Daag44

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Posted 20 November 2020 - 05:23 PM

Did you have the chance to index TDC and run a timing light?


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
850 Cente Oil line for coolant pump melted
850 Main Oil line caught fire #1 and #2
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Electric Start troubleshooting
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
E-TEC Voltage Rectifier Regulator troubleshooting
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 Steering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pictures - How to post with the correct orientation
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power Loss - How to diagnose in the field
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#8 adixwpg

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Posted 20 November 2020 - 09:52 PM

Why didn’t you take it back to be repaired under warranty?


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#9 351c

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Posted 21 November 2020 - 09:59 PM

Did you have the chance to index TDC and run a timing light?

Not yet Daag. Transitioning from Mustang and lake season to snowmobile season probably December



#10 351c

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Posted 21 November 2020 - 10:00 PM

Why didn’t you take it back to be repaired under warranty?


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Was winding down to the end of the season, and for what its worth, I don't mind checking that stuff myself.



#11 Daag44

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Posted Yesterday, 01:27 AM

Not yet Daag. Transitioning from Mustang and lake season to snowmobile season probably December

 
I am patient, but I wanted to make sure you didn't forget this one lol  There is this very particular case that I have been trying to work out that even stumped BRP. BUDS only allows to advance or retard the timing 4 degrees, so when the ignition timing is found that much further than I begin to suspect the keyway in the flywheel was machined with the incorrect angle. There are offset keys, but like you this is a stock sled. There may also be a way to cheat this limitation, but I haven't comfired it yet. This isn't something that I have seen, hence why I am interested to see if such a machining error has ever been confirmed.


Edited by Daag44, Yesterday, 09:09 AM.

Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
850 Cente Oil line for coolant pump melted
850 Main Oil line caught fire #1 and #2
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Electric Start troubleshooting
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
E-TEC Voltage Rectifier Regulator troubleshooting
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 Steering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pictures - How to post with the correct orientation
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power Loss - How to diagnose in the field
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#12 DOOREV800

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Posted Yesterday, 04:37 AM

But why did it run great for 8000k only to have issues after the starter repair?
2016 MXZx XS 1200 Motec M1 Homebuilt
2010 Mxzx XR 1200 (Homebuilt EFR Turbo @ 8 PSI)
2008 Mxzx 800r
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#13 stealth bomber

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Posted Yesterday, 07:26 AM

Because they replaced the magneto as part of the starter repair, the theory is that the key way slot in the mag is cut in the wrong spot, making the timing retarded

#14 DOOREV800

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Posted Yesterday, 08:12 AM

Okay I see, i missed the part of the mag replacement. Makes sense now
2016 MXZx XS 1200 Motec M1 Homebuilt
2010 Mxzx XR 1200 (Homebuilt EFR Turbo @ 8 PSI)
2008 Mxzx 800r
2003 Mxzx Rev 800
2001 Mxzx 800
1998 Formula 3 700
1997 Mxz 670
1995 Mach 1 670
1992 Mx 470
1978 Blizzard 6500Plus
1974 Sno-Jet SST 340

#15 Daag44

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Posted Yesterday, 09:34 AM

What was the timing offset before the first advance? Was it -4 degrees?


Edited by Daag44, Yesterday, 09:34 AM.

Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
850 Cente Oil line for coolant pump melted
850 Main Oil line caught fire #1 and #2
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Electric Start troubleshooting
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
E-TEC Voltage Rectifier Regulator troubleshooting
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 Steering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pictures - How to post with the correct orientation
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power Loss - How to diagnose in the field
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix






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