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850 to 600r?


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#46 Radicalrex

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Posted 13 July 2020 - 07:46 PM

I’d a traded my 19 850 Gade X with 350 miles on a 20 600r but they wouldn’t even give close to enough for the adrenaline package. . I just don’t need a 850 where I ride with it’s crazy pull all the time due to having reconstructive arm surgery 5 days after I picked it up new, and couldn’t use it the first season. If your in NY and wish you’d a went 850 over your 600r lmk. 35% break in left with extras. 165 hp, 40% faster clutch reaction is great, but my arms new hardware can’t play that way anymore.

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Edited by Radicalrex, 13 July 2020 - 08:03 PM.

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#47 Daag44

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Posted 13 July 2020 - 08:41 PM

You might have to tone that one down too. There is much that can be done with clutching and gearing. Deflection is a big one too for the initial abruptness. I don't have the hardware, but I tone it down for how I ride.


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#48 mcshady1996

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Posted 19 July 2020 - 09:50 PM

I had the 2017 renegade 850.  I did like the sled, but the engine was more power than the frame could handle, and i was going through 3 belts a season.  it was cool, but very frustrating.

 

last year i got the 2020 backcountry 600r, and i'll be staying with 600 from now on.  still tons of power, super lightweight in the backcountry (can't tell in the specs, but it's a big difference from the 850 in front end weight while riding).  never had an issue and never blew a belt this whole season, nobody ever out ran me.

 

you shouldn't think you're crazy for thinking about going back to the 600 after having an 800 or 850.  I will admit the 850 is a major rush when you get up to 115mph, but i have a family to worry about, and the 600r is an overall more fun experience in my opinion.  the 600r still goes 93mph, and that's plenty fast enough....i imagine it goes up to 97 or 99mph on a mxz or renegade with the shorter track and higher gearing.



#49 ncapster

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Posted 20 July 2020 - 03:45 PM

I had the 2017 renegade 850.  I did like the sled, but the engine was more power than the frame could handle, and i was going through 3 belts a season.  it was cool, but very frustrating.

 

last year i got the 2020 backcountry 600r, and i'll be staying with 600 from now on.  still tons of power, super lightweight in the backcountry (can't tell in the specs, but it's a big difference from the 850 in front end weight while riding).  never had an issue and never blew a belt this whole season, nobody ever out ran me.

 

you shouldn't think you're crazy for thinking about going back to the 600 after having an 800 or 850.  I will admit the 850 is a major rush when you get up to 115mph, but i have a family to worry about, and the 600r is an overall more fun experience in my opinion.  the 600r still goes 93mph, and that's plenty fast enough....i imagine it goes up to 97 or 99mph on a mxz or renegade with the shorter track and higher gearing.

 

On hard packed snow does it seem to steer lighter than your 850 did? 


Edited by ncapster, 20 July 2020 - 03:46 PM.



#50 mcshady1996

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Posted 20 July 2020 - 06:19 PM

On hard packed snow does it seem to steer lighter than your 850 did? 

yes it does...my buddy actually bought the same sled as mine, but with an 850, and he complains that his shoulders hurt, so we've been trying to mess with his suspension settings to lighten up the steering.



#51 ncapster

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Posted 20 July 2020 - 09:18 PM

yes it does...my buddy actually bought the same sled as mine, but with an 850, and he complains that his shoulders hurt, so we've been trying to mess with his suspension settings to lighten up the steering.


Interesting, I thought it was the C-Motion that made the BCs steer lighter. Like you said the specs don’t show much difference, about 10 lbs if memory serves. So your buddy’s 850 BC steers noticeably heavier than your 600R BC? Have you rode his sled or just going by his comments?


#52 srocher

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Posted 20 July 2020 - 10:09 PM

I rode my buddies 600 TNT and it corners SOOO much easier than my 850 XRS.  


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#53 djm

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Posted 21 July 2020 - 12:49 AM

Lets see, the weight difference is only 6 or 7 or the most 10 lbs between the 850 and the 600R? Should that make much of a difference in turning effort? 

 

Hmmm do you think the larger diameter counter weights (discs) on the 850 engine crankshaft has a bigger/larger gyroscopic effect on the turning of the sled vs the smaller counterweight discs of the 600R?  Harder to turn the spinning gyrosccope off it's axis???  


Edited by djm, 21 July 2020 - 01:34 AM.


#54 djm

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Posted 21 July 2020 - 01:33 AM

 

 

I had the 2017 renegade 850.  I did like the sled, but the engine was more power than the frame could handle, and i was going through 3 belts a season.  it was cool, but very frustrating.

 

xxx Lets disect this a little.  Doo went to a non adjustable belt system relying on design tolerance with a 4 way and 2 way engine locator.  This started with the XP, I think they had so many belt complaints prior to that, that they felt dealership mechanic's could not set belt alignment well so they wanted to take the control out of their hands and put it in the design.  Good thinking if they could control all of the tolerances - but they had problems and the extemes of the tolerance stackups were out of alignment.. 5 to 15% at the opposite ends of the tolerance stack up, although I think on the XP they trended to 3.8 to 4mm out.. to the outside of the sled and in 2011 or 12 they made a tolerance shift which helped.  Then comes the 850 with the wobble clutch to counter act the torque pulses (neat idea and works for vibration) but the softer engine mounts caused more issues at the extremes of the tolerance stack up.  (what can you do,, stiffen up mounts, provide more cooling, shift tolerance again.. in 2017 there were a lot of sleds that did not have belt issues..  bummer to have a sled that did.   Each year they have gotten better for this (continuous improvements).  From what I have seen a Doodocter floater would have solved your belt issue, particularly with a modified belt cover and a vent or two 

 

last year i got the 2020 backcountry 600r, and i'll be staying with 600 from now on.  still tons of power, super lightweight in the backcountry (can't tell in the specs, but it's a big difference from the 850 in front end weight while riding).  never had an issue and never blew a belt this whole season, nobody ever out ran me.

 

xxxx Actual data says the 600R is at most 10lbs heavier on the front end than the 850, probably a couple of pounds less than that.  Yet the 600R steers decidedly easier than the 850 in comparable chassis C motion lighter than R motion, rack steering steers ligher than non rack steering (these are a couple of complicating factors) yet the barely lighter 600R steers easier than the 850 when speced and set up the same.  Interesting.. 

 

you shouldn't think you're crazy for thinking about going back to the 600 after having an 800 or 850.  I will admit the 850 is a major rush when you get up to 115mph, but i have a family to worry about, and the 600r is an overall more fun experience in my opinion.  the 600r still goes 93mph, and that's plenty fast enough....i imagine it goes up to 97 or 99mph on a mxz or renegade with the shorter track and higher gearing.

 

xxx 600R has grown some horsepower over the 600 ETEC and is amost enough.. probably is enough, and I suspect it will touch 100 mph or a bit more in the right chassi and track.  No doubt a fun sled.  

 

xxx it must be magic that a sled with a smaller engine which is only a little bit ligher in the front end - less than 10 lbs, steers so much lighter.. or maybe it's just physics.... 

 

 



#55 ncapster

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Posted 21 July 2020 - 07:30 AM

Lets see, the weight difference is only 6 or 7 or the most 10 lbs between the 850 and the 600R? Should that make much of a difference in turning effort? 
 
Hmmm do you think the larger diameter counter weights (discs) on the 850 engine crankshaft has a bigger/larger gyroscopic effect on the turning of the sled vs the smaller counterweight discs of the 600R?  Harder to turn the spinning gyrosccope off it's axis???


That’s more on the 4-strokes with their timing chain and overhead cam set-up. I only noticed it in the deep stuff. On trail it’s the extra weight up front that makes them steer heavier. AFAIK the BCs steer lighter due to the different font arm geometry on the C-Motion creating more lift on the front end. The 850 & 600R are so close in weight it “ should “ be negligible. Maybe the guy with the 850 BC shortened his limiter strap IDK.


#56 A7M266D

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Posted 21 July 2020 - 07:53 AM

Lets see, the weight difference is only 6 or 7 or the most 10 lbs between the 850 and the 600R? Should that make much of a difference in turning effort? 

 

Hmmm do you think the larger diameter counter weights (discs) on the 850 engine crankshaft has a bigger/larger gyroscopic effect on the turning of the sled vs the smaller counterweight discs of the 600R?  Harder to turn the spinning gyrosccope off it's axis???  

 

I have actually made this gyroscopic claim before but had it discredited or dismissed by others.  I feel this is a large part of why a 4 stroke sled just feels heavier.  Yes the extra weight is present but the rotating mass of the crank, cams, chains, shafts etc make it harder to manipulate the machine to change its axis or direction.  At least I believe its a contributing factor it simply has to be based on physics.


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#57 tnt5150

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Posted 21 July 2020 - 05:25 PM

I had a 600R the last 2 years and absolutely loved it. I ordered a 850 just to feel the rush of power. Reading all the positive 600r comments has me thinking I should have stuck with it. Who knows,maybe I will only keep the 850 1 year.

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19 MXZ XRS 600R Yellow/Silver

19 MXZ TNT 600R Black
18 Neo NAS207TF enclosed inline trailer
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14 Renegade Sport 550F(Son's first sled)
15 Renegade X 600 Etec Orange/Black
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04 MXZ 600HO
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#58 djm

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Posted 21 July 2020 - 06:18 PM

That’s more on the 4-strokes with their timing chain and overhead cam set-up. I only noticed it in the deep stuff. On trail it’s the extra weight up front that makes them steer heavier. AFAIK the BCs steer lighter due to the different font arm geometry on the C-Motion creating more lift on the front end. The 850 & 600R are so close in weight it “ should “ be negligible. Maybe the guy with the 850 BC shortened his limiter strap IDK.

 

You can say that... but I have had two XP set up identically; one with an 800R and one with a 700HO - chassis, tracks, springs and shocks identical, my limiter straps are always all the way out and and have a lot of preload on front skid shock...  and 800R definitely turned harder.  - crank and counter weights are a gyroscope, restrained by bearing and engine mounts.... the one with the larger diameter counter weights steers harder.  As  you said, the difference in engine/pipe weight is negligible..   But it is like arguing politics .. no one will convince or sway anyone else.  



#59 djm

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Posted 21 July 2020 - 06:22 PM

I have actually made this gyroscopic claim before but had it discredited or dismissed by others.  I feel this is a large part of why a 4 stroke sled just feels heavier.  Yes the extra weight is present but the rotating mass of the crank, cams, chains, shafts etc make it harder to manipulate the machine to change its axis or direction.  At least I believe its a contributing factor it simply has to be based on physics.

Jamie, there are people that still believe the earth is flat and the virus will go away with the election.. .. some things and beliefs can't be changed.  Physics has provable facts/equations .  just like wearing a mask and social distansing...   some people are hard to convince.... science must be black magic.   Nuff said.  



#60 ncapster

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Posted 21 July 2020 - 06:56 PM

All anybody has to do is pick up a fidget spinner at the local gas station and then they can play with gyroscopic force in their hand. Or if they’re more daring, hop on a street bike and take a corner too fast. They will quickly discover there’s 2 options. 1. Fly off the road into a corn field or 2. Throw their body weight off the bike to counter the gyroscopic force.
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