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#46 Radicalrex

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Posted 07 August 2020 - 12:22 PM

Djm sent me a email. Np. Also stated I need some poppy weights and new pins? Also trying a different computer to contact you, hopefully.
Thanks


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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#47 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 09 August 2020 - 02:25 PM

Buddy. It's not the pc. It's a setting in yer yahoo email. Mite have accidentally blocked me or set as spam. Go in yer sent file and right click on my email to see what the setting is on that Addy. 😁
 



#48 Radicalrex

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Posted 10 August 2020 - 09:13 PM

K Joey, it’s now marked as “not Spam” and I’ve sent another email.
Thanks
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#49 1709

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Posted 11 August 2020 - 08:15 AM

For those that want to lower their engagement Dalton has a new spring for the Pdrive,  100 - 360   should bring engagement down to about 3000 or lower.



#50 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 11 August 2020 - 05:46 PM

For those that want to lower their engagement Dalton has a new spring for the Pdrive,  100 - 360   should bring engagement down to about 3000 or lower.

Warning - long winded speech.  :lol:  But im super pleased with this spring and all the help from the test guys who verified it last season.

 

Over the last 2 seasons with the help of Dalton we been testing different spring forces; test guys verifying their performance, I made several springs varying between the first load of 85 and the second load at 370. 

I would go test the first one and switch back-n-forth sleds (same sled, same clutching, test spring in one sled) to verify the difference in what the test spring does vs the original spring.  Then send the springs out to test guys for verification.  Test clicker 2, 3, 4, varying weights, ramp profiles, etc; but the main objective was to explore...

..."how low can we go" on engagement speed on the N/A and Turbo 850.

...and what benefits would be see from it

 

100 pounds start was chosen from what we learned iterating through problems.  When you struggle with a problem that's when you understand it.  I found what I thought was a problem "to me, for-me", back in 2016 when driving the 850.  Now Radical Rex presents something he does not like, for "his own self" and he's able to explain the problem because he's experienced it personal firsthand knowledge, not someone parakeeting someone else's words.

********* The "surging" is not necessarily a problem for people; they may happen to like that with their own setup. ********

I pitched the idea to Dale at Dalton for the values between 90 and 370 but the target was 95-365.  Dale's spring company could make the closest at 100-360 with the spring materials and how the spring fits in the pDrive; it has to last tens of thousands of cycles and not fail - that was the closest "in forces" he could come to my target.  It works mint for people who want lower engagement speed and to keep their final forces in the 355~370 range.

The spring was from the problems we worked on and how we solved them.  If someone was really the person solving it, they'll be able to answer multiple levels, they'll be able to go down to the brass tacks.  If they weren't they'll get stuck and then you can say oh this person was not really the person who solved it because, anyone who struggled hard with a problem never forgets it; this other, a mere parakeet - recycling reviewed previous content, not really relevant.

Again, Dale stuck his neck out for iBackshift and here we have more "tweener" springs on the market. WOO ! ! !

spring testing pdrive.jpg

Attached Images

  • dalton 100-360.jpg


#51 djm

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Posted 11 August 2020 - 06:04 PM

Warning - long winded speech.  :lol:  But im super pleased with this spring and all the help from the test guys who verified it last season.

 

Over the last 2 seasons with the help of Dalton we been testing different spring forces; test guys verifying their performance, I made several springs varying between the first load of 85 and the second load at 370. 

I would go test the first one and switch back-n-forth sleds (same sled, same clutching, test spring in one sled) to verify the difference in what the test spring does vs the original spring.  Then send the springs out to test guys for verification.  Test clicker 2, 3, 4, varying weights, ramp profiles, etc; but the main objective was to explore...

..."how low can we go" on engagement speed on the N/A and Turbo 850.

...and what benefits would be see from it

 

100 pounds start was chosen from what we learned iterating through problems.  When you struggle with a problem that's when you understand it.  I found what I thought was a problem "to me, for-me", back in 2016 when driving the 850.  Now Radical Rex presents something he does not like, for "his own self" and he's able to explain the problem because he's experienced it personal firsthand knowledge, not someone parakeeting someone else's words.

********* The "surging" is not necessarily a problem for people; they may happen to like that with their own setup. ********

I pitched the idea to Dale at Dalton for the values between 90 and 370 but the target was 95-365.  Dale's spring company could make the closest at 100-360 with the spring materials and how the spring fits in the pDrive; it has to last tens of thousands of cycles and not fail - that was the closest "in forces" he could come to my target.  It works mint for people who want lower engagement speed and to keep their final forces in the 355~370 range.

The spring was from the problems we worked on and how we solved them.  If someone was really the person solving it, they'll be able to answer multiple levels, they'll be able to go down to the brass tacks.  If they weren't they'll get stuck and then you can say oh this person was not really the person who solved it because, anyone who struggled hard with a problem never forgets it; this other, a mere parakeet - recycling reviewed previous content, not really relevant.

Again, Dale stuck his neck out for iBackshift and here we have more "tweener" springs on the market. WOO ! ! !

attachicon.gifspring testing pdrive.jpg

 

Well done Joe, beats using someone secondary spring that was not designed for the job and I think I could only get to about 335 lbs on the top end.   Of course you sent two of them with my Popeye order, right?  Ha ha just kidding..  Do we order from your or Dalton?   

 

Oh, and I love your Rimac valve spring tester.. 



#52 1709

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Posted 11 August 2020 - 06:20 PM

Nice work Joe, and great you have Dale to help you with making springs that you want,

Now A question for you,  according to you on your site, how to figure out the rate of a spring not the "force"  as you say. LOL

100-360    you take 360 minus 100 = 260 divided by 1.25/inch = 208 that is the spring rate for that spring.

now if you take the 150-350 spring the rate would be 200 divided by 1.25 = 160 spring rate.

now if you keep the same ramps in, will the 100-360 spring be more throttle responsive then the 150-350 spring because of the higher rate?

 

enquiring minds want to know.    thanks.  or better yet how does spring rate effect throttle response.



#53 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 12 August 2020 - 01:00 PM

djm

You can order one from Chris @ C&T Powersports, he can get most all Dalton stuff. Have mine ordered ;)

-grover

In Canada and world, order 100/360 red pDrive spring

https://www.ibackshi...p?idProduct=137



#54 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 12 August 2020 - 01:02 PM

And to let the readers know, im working on an answer to RadicalRex's original post

A snippet...

RadicalRex's stock 968 background.

Expedition 982 foreground.

Notice the "hump" of the 968 at the start of the ramp from 0mph to 30mph.  At engagement speed, the roller is at the 0mph position.  Increase throttle past engagement, the flyweight starts to execute its path, pushing on the roller.  The slight higher angle of the ramp can make the roller "dwell" over the peak of the radius of that curve which can cause the ramp to move with enough speed in small distance that you feel a "surging" which RadicalRex explains in the first post.

radrex 1.jpg



#55 Json

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Posted 12 August 2020 - 01:55 PM

It would be interesting to see a 970 ramp in comparison also.



#56 Radicalrex

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Posted 12 August 2020 - 05:05 PM

Joey is on the right track for sure to help MY issue. Yes lowering engagement will help but smoothing the ramp curve from 0-30 would be just right. I admit I know little about snowmobile clutching other than servicing them, stock has always been fine for the last 50+ years, until my current situation. Hence this thread, looking to smooth out the beast without giving up the massive mid range

Edited by Radicalrex, 12 August 2020 - 05:07 PM.

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#57 djm

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Posted 14 August 2020 - 05:16 PM

And to let the readers know, im working on an answer to RadicalRex's original post

A snippet...

RadicalRex's stock 968 background.

Expedition 982 foreground.

Notice the "hump" of the 968 at the start of the ramp from 0mph to 30mph.  At engagement speed, the roller is at the 0mph position.  Increase throttle past engagement, the flyweight starts to execute its path, pushing on the roller.  The slight higher angle of the ramp can make the roller "dwell" over the peak of the radius of that curve which can cause the ramp to move with enough speed in small distance that you feel a "surging" which RadicalRex explains in the first post.

attachicon.gifradrex 1.jpg

 

Is that ramp bump/steepness to grab the belt hard at low speed as you accelerate to increase belt life/durability?  I have complained and tried to fix it since I got my Low Elevation Summit G4 in 2017.  I like to explore in deep powder in the trees.. and it can be a pain in these conditions.  The summit seemed even worse that the 129 at the time.  But it might have been the conditions that I was trying to ride the Summit in.. that aggravated the issue.   

 

So you are developing another ramp now?  To go along with the popeye and the low initial start force on the spring?  



#58 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 20 August 2020 - 10:55 AM

  • 982 foreground [52.9 grams
  • 970 middle [52.5grams]
  • 968 background [49.1 grams]

I would make a guess off the top of my head that 970 will pull harder on the lake and river than a 968 because of the extra mass, but say backshift off/on throttle will be slower because of heavier mass.  [same roller curve profile]

970 still has the same hump (curve) at the start as the 968, so you will have the same "personality" on the bottom end, regardless of ramp.

The 982 is still the smoother ramp profile at the start.

982_970_968.jpg



#59 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 26 August 2020 - 10:24 PM

2019 Rene 850 ADR/X/X-RS/ENDURO

Yellow/blue (120/300)

968 ramp @  49 grams

33mm pivot (18.8g)<<< I’ve no idea why they have “18.8g” here.

33mm pivot @ 15.4g

 

BRP#417224115 @26 mm 13.1g

BRP#417224116 @33 mm 15.2g

BRP#417224117 @38 mm 16.7g

 

Something wrong or im missing a part number.  I look at the spec sheet and it says 33mm pivot (18.8g), but the BRP pivot I have weighs 15.4 grams.(+/- .2g)  The only way I see BRP making 18.8 is with the 33mm(15.4) and one x 2mm spacer and one x 3mm spacer = 18.5 grams

Or

A 38mm pivot @ 16.7 then add one x 2mm spacer, then its 18.8g total.

 

Ok, lets go with…

968(49grams) + 33mm pivot(15.4grams) + 2mm spacer + 3mm spacer = 67.6 grams total. (Clicker #3)

1-968 .jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                         

Want to use the 982 ramps @ 52.9 grams

982(52.9) + 26mm pivot bolt + 2mm spacer = 67.3 grams (pretty close to 67.6 grams, ½ gram-ish off) (Clicker #3)

2-982.jpg

 

There is a ramp curve issue now.  If you notice the 982 ramp curve raises from midrange to top end.

3-982-968.jpg

That 982 acts as-if the ramp is 1 clicker higher (from mid to top end) than the 968.   I suspect as the track speed increases past the midrange, the engine speed may raise past 7950 rpms. 

Aaen says IF engine speed raises at highest track speed, THEN lower the primary clutch final force.

Go from xxx/300 to xxx/250 as there will be less spring force on top end and the engine speed should not raise as track speed goes towards top end.

 

Right now the sled has 120/300.  There is no 120/250, there is only a 100/250, ok, then…

BRP#417224329 (100/250) Red/Yellow

982(52.9) + 26mm pivot bolt + 2mm spacer = 67.3 grams (pretty close to 67.6 grams, ½ gram-ish off)

(Clicker #3)

 

With the 100 pound primary spring start force and the 982 ramps there could be an engagement speed around 2800 rpms. [i betcha its a bit lower rpms]

IF you find the engine speed off the bottom end a little sluggish, THEN instead of shimming the primary clutch spring to raise the start force, can raise the secondary spring start force.

 

The green 180/303 secondary spring can be changed out to….

Dalton red 205/305

Dalton red/yellow 218/305

Skidoo Purple 231/303

 

Going from the green 180/xxx start force to a higher secondary spring start force, then off the bottom end the engine speed will still have the same 2800 engagement, but the engine will “rev up quicker”  and not in a surging manner.

Here is what i would push off the dock with

  • 100/250 primary spring

  • 982 ramps

  • 26mm pivot bolt + 2mm spacer

  • clicker 3

  • 205/310 Dalton Red secondary spring

...go test


 



#60 Radicalrex

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Posted 28 August 2020 - 09:48 PM

That’s a lot of info to absorb and decide which one to start with? after reading Joes reply I’m grasping the concepts both ways. Staying with the 968s option only the primary has to be removed.
Using the 982 ramps with the 100lb start is obviously a little more involved with replacing the secondary spring also, and by design having a smoother ramp curve (Low Rpm)on the bottom easily seen in the photo. Then comparative mid range but drops off the top end b4 the 968 ramps. Hence replacing the secondary spring preventing over rev on top end.
If your following along and understanding better than I please put it into more “layman” terms for me. I like the 968 concept but with the 982s it will be the smoother bottom between the two??
Food for thought, out of my last 3 800s I preferred the stock clutching on the 800 PT. 2 800 etech were slouches from the factory on the bottom. This Pdrive 850 being 40% more responsive Is always on/off the throttle under 20mph....
Engine braking/bumping throttle is Jumpy
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