850 gade x under 20mph - Page 3 - REV-GEN 4 - MXZ Performance Trail 129/ Renegade 137 - DOOTalk Forums

Jump to content

 






Photo

850 gade x under 20mph


  • Please log in to reply
66 replies to this topic

#31 A7M266D

A7M266D

    Ski-Doo Guru

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13279 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ontario Canada
  • Interests:Snowmobiles, motorsports, motocross, wake surfing, aviation.
  • Sled:BCXRS

  •    

Posted 23 July 2020 - 07:33 AM

This is great to read/hear and brings back promise! Please message me or post up the details of who I need to contact for the parts I need. Its great to hear from someone that actually has riddin, and knows it’s a success... I bet this thread will help many people wanting the same results. Much appreciated


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

Here is the link to the "popeye" weights.

 

https://www.ibackshi...p?idProduct=112

 

You generally will need the Ti bolts as well but wait for @Dynamo^Joe to reply here.  He also has the springs you need which are properly trimmed to lower engagement even more.  Happy to help that's the kind of solution to a problem guys come up with when they spend time in the real world riding, testing, and tuning.  


Please like and share my Youtube channel for more content.

https://www.youtube....w_as=subscriber

#32 Dynamo^Joe

Dynamo^Joe

    Metalhead

  • Sponsors
  • 8816 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Thunder Bay
  • Interests:SUMMIT platform SkiDoo's. Being a student of the TRA clutches.
  • Sled:850, 154, 3" - 13, 872 custom 120, 3"

Posted 23 July 2020 - 06:44 PM

What's wrong with this picture, I am sitting here at work.. and you are out on the lake.. relaxing???  

Yes.  Almost every weekday evening (unless I have company over), I go out on the lake in my scooter and spend 1 to 2 hours answering emails, surfin the net and read the newspaper.  I have no svc at the cabin, but 1/2 way out in the lake 4/5 bars.

https://www.dootalk....ead/?p=23438957

 

 

Radical Rex Said...

In the moguls going slow under 20mph isn’t fun with the clutch engaging, disengaging. Jerky and Bit tiring
For sure. Any fix for it? Thanks
Can’t find the jerky 850 thread....

Surging off bottom end

what you are feeling is "engagement surge" or "jerk", where the clutch feels a sudden powerful upshift and when you let off the throttle, it immediately "lets go".  Press throttle again, even very slowly, the clutch pushes on the belt, the handlebars feel like they "jerk" out of your hand.  When you try to do a wrong-foot-forward on a sidehill, the handlebars feel like they are surging out of your hands and the vehicle speed ends up being too fast to control your one-foot-walking.

post-4800-0-91596500-1576456918.jpg

I know you have a trail sled, but what I explain is the same I've felt on the 850 and 600 G4 trail and BC trail sleds I got to run last few winters.

 

Belt deflection

It does not matter to me if it was a 1986 Polaris Indy 400.  Im going to set the belt deflection the same way based on the idea that Im looking for "tension" between the two pulleys.  I dont care about belt height.  I want sufficient "tension" between the two pulleys that balance between the belt not burning from the friction on the belt-to-shaft surface and clutch engaging on the belt.  If the tension between the two pulleys are at an amount where the belt seems loose, then when the clutch engages on the belt, it can push the belt up in the sheaves, higher than its lowest ratio (1st gear) and feel "surging" or "jerking" of the belt.

post-4800-0-99592200-1576463682.jpg

 

My opinion, this "sensitivity" is purely clutch parts; namely the ramps and their inherent start angle.  When i remove the 441 ramps from an 800etec and install my DJ ramps (415/441 blend) the sled will have the same result of the surging off the bottom end.  Then I get rid of the sensitivity with my ramps by going from a 160/xxx primary spring to a 130/xxx primary spring.

 

Ive also made shims to test belt clearance, placing a plastic shim made out of windshield washer jug plastic or blue crazy carpet and put that shim on top of the primary clutch spring cover.  This shim will be in between the spring cover and governor cup.  That shim will push the sheave more closer to the drive belt.  Hahaha....can't use "sun dried" crazy carpet because that plastic was hard and blew into pieces and jammed the clutch.  No damage though, just have to hit the kill switch because the sled keeps on going when the throttle is off. HAHA...i was laffing.

 

I've taken a set of the 966, 965 and 990 ramps and ground a modified tip on them, this lowers the engagement speed a bit, but mostly, loads the bottom end more and completely eliminates that "sensitivity".  I literally breath on the throttle and my sled starts to move like a tundra xtreme.  I can make my own sled crawl at a 1/4 mph.

 

Radical Rex Spex...

radicals specs.jpg

I know the sheet there says 2900 but the one I got to drive was 32~3300 engagement speed.

At this point you can change the start force of the primary clutch spring.  Lowering the start force from 120/xxx down to 100/300, and this should lower the engagement speed about at least 200 rpms.  Some people want higher engagement speed than stock, with studded track, etc and can do that with a different ramp that will still be more silky smooth than the 968. 

 

There is another way by using a less aggressive ramp on the start like one from an 850 expedition extreme (982 ramp) but I would have to look at the 982 side by side with the 968 to see what kind of curve it has. 

 

I gotta get over to my office and get those ramps to compare.



#33 djm

djm

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13670 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fenton, Mi.
  • Sled:09 700HO TNT, 11 Summit 770HO, 850 Sum X

Posted 24 July 2020 - 05:49 AM

Yes.  Almost every weekday evening (unless I have company over), I go out on the lake in my scooter and spend 1 to 2 hours answering emails, surfin the net and read the newspaper.  I have no svc at the cabin, but 1/2 way out in the lake 4/5 bars.

https://www.dootalk....ead/?p=23438957

 

 

Surging off bottom end

what you are feeling is "engagement surge" or "jerk", where the clutch feels a sudden powerful upshift and when you let off the throttle, it immediately "lets go".  Press throttle again, even very slowly, the clutch pushes on the belt, the handlebars feel like they "jerk" out of your hand.  When you try to do a wrong-foot-forward on a sidehill, the handlebars feel like they are surging out of your hands and the vehicle speed ends up being too fast to control your one-foot-walking.

post-4800-0-91596500-1576456918.jpg

I know you have a trail sled, but what I explain is the same I've felt on the 850 and 600 G4 trail and BC trail sleds I got to run last few winters.

 

Belt deflection

It does not matter to me if it was a 1986 Polaris Indy 400.  Im going to set the belt deflection the same way based on the idea that Im looking for "tension" between the two pulleys.  I dont care about belt height.  I want sufficient "tension" between the two pulleys that balance between the belt not burning from the friction on the belt-to-shaft surface and clutch engaging on the belt.  If the tension between the two pulleys are at an amount where the belt seems loose, then when the clutch engages on the belt, it can push the belt up in the sheaves, higher than its lowest ratio (1st gear) and feel "surging" or "jerking" of the belt.

post-4800-0-99592200-1576463682.jpg

 

My opinion, this "sensitivity" is purely clutch parts; namely the ramps and their inherent start angle.  When i remove the 441 ramps from an 800etec and install my DJ ramps (415/441 blend) the sled will have the same result of the surging off the bottom end.  Then I get rid of the sensitivity with my ramps by going from a 160/xxx primary spring to a 130/xxx primary spring.

 

Ive also made shims to test belt clearance, placing a plastic shim made out of windshield washer jug plastic or blue crazy carpet and put that shim on top of the primary clutch spring cover.  This shim will be in between the spring cover and governor cup.  That shim will push the sheave more closer to the drive belt.  Hahaha....can't use "sun dried" crazy carpet because that plastic was hard and blew into pieces and jammed the clutch.  No damage though, just have to hit the kill switch because the sled keeps on going when the throttle is off. HAHA...i was laffing.

 

I've taken a set of the 966, 965 and 990 ramps and ground a modified tip on them, this lowers the engagement speed a bit, but mostly, loads the bottom end more and completely eliminates that "sensitivity".  I literally breath on the throttle and my sled starts to move like a tundra xtreme.  I can make my own sled crawl at a 1/4 mph.

 

Radical Rex Spex...

attachicon.gifradicals specs.jpg

I know the sheet there says 2900 but the one I got to drive was 32~3300 engagement speed.

At this point you can change the start force of the primary clutch spring.  Lowering the start force from 120/xxx down to 100/300, and this should lower the engagement speed about at least 200 rpms.  Some people want higher engagement speed than stock, with studded track, etc and can do that with a different ramp that will still be more silky smooth than the 968. 

 

There is another way by using a less aggressive ramp on the start like one from an 850 expedition extreme (982 ramp) but I would have to look at the 982 side by side with the 968 to see what kind of curve it has. 

 

I gotta get over to my office and get those ramps to compare.

 

So you believe the reason Groo's 850 Expedition extreme engages so smooth is due to less aggressive 982 ramp start curve!  Aw well as the low range gear. Looks like he has a start force of 150 lbs. 



#34 RVJ

RVJ

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 37 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Yellowknife
  • Sled:2005 mxz renegade X 600 sdi

Posted 24 July 2020 - 11:39 AM

I had a 2011 renegade BC with a 600 etc. I sold it and went back to a 2005 gade X SDI because of the 2011 herky jerky throttle and I didn't want to spend thousands experimenting on fixes for it. With the SDI I can thread the needle through the tight twisty un-groomed trails we have up here and I still have the top end for racing across the lakes. I often stand in the trails and the 2011 often made me feel like I was going to go over the handlebars. This drove me nuts. 

 

Last Spring I snow checked a renegade X with the 600r. Maybe I had a moment of memory loss when I ordered the new sled, but now I'm really scared I'm going to regret it. I thought I might like the 900 but tried one and really missed the top end of the 600.  A lot of guys drive themselves nuts trying to resolve the low speed ride-ability issue and others just say they get used to it. I just don't understand why it needs to be this way in the first place on a stock production sled.

 

This is obviously a common problem. I have a bit of a hard time following some of these threads as I don't have the in depth knowledge of springs, ramps, clutch construction etc. I would really like a silver bullet solution to this issue. I would like to stay with skidoo and I really like the 600 but I don't want to spend a small fortune on modifying a brand new sled. 

 

I'm keeping my fingers crossed hoping that the new sled won't be as bad as I remember. 



#35 groo

groo

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 6312 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:da UP
  • Sled:2015 Expedion SE 1200

Posted 24 July 2020 - 11:50 PM

So you believe the reason Groo's 850 Expedition extreme engages so smooth is due to less aggressive 982 ramp start curve!  Aw well as the low range gear. Looks like he has a start force of 150 lbs. 

the reason my expedition is so smooth is because it is a 1200....

 

The 2 stroke expys don't have a reverse gear box any more, just the hi-low. I do wonder if the high-lo box could be installed on a skinny track sled. low range off trail or hitting ditches is an entirely different experience. It makes more difference that the wide track in my book, but the two compliment each other.

Honestly, my 1200 with a radiator, air pump and bigger gear box doesn't feel all that nose heavy to me, but my previous sled was a triple triple, so that might have something to do with it.


  • djm likes this

#36 djm

djm

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13670 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fenton, Mi.
  • Sled:09 700HO TNT, 11 Summit 770HO, 850 Sum X

Posted 25 July 2020 - 12:30 AM

the reason my expedition is so smooth is because it is a 1200....

 

The 2 stroke expys don't have a reverse gear box any more, just the hi-low. I do wonder if the high-lo box could be installed on a skinny track sled. low range off trail or hitting ditches is an entirely different experience. It makes more difference that the wide track in my book, but the two compliment each other.

Honestly, my 1200 with a radiator, air pump and bigger gear box doesn't feel all that nose heavy to me, but my previous sled was a triple triple, so that might have something to do with it.

 

Ah, no wonder it's so smooth.   Thanks for the update.  Like a DA I assumed since you were responding to this thread that you had an 850 2 stroke, which when reading about it, was an impressive sled.  Joey seems to think the ramps in the 850 Extreme Expedition have a much milder initial ramp; but had to check one in his office to confirm it.    I too wondered how much of an issue it would be to addapt that gear system to a Summit etc...  as the total dry weight of one of those 850 EE's was not that much heavier than the 15 or 16 inch track sleds.  Although I am headed to a light weight belt drive in mine at the moment.  Something to think about in the future.   Also neat  is the two speed feature.   


Edited by djm, 25 July 2020 - 12:31 AM.


#37 Dynamo^Joe

Dynamo^Joe

    Metalhead

  • Sponsors
  • 8816 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Thunder Bay
  • Interests:SUMMIT platform SkiDoo's. Being a student of the TRA clutches.
  • Sled:850, 154, 3" - 13, 872 custom 120, 3"

Posted 25 July 2020 - 09:12 PM

I have the ramps here at camp. I'll take pictures and up them. (Answering from my pontoon boat on the middle of the lake @ 10:12pm)
... Haha

#38 djm

djm

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13670 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fenton, Mi.
  • Sled:09 700HO TNT, 11 Summit 770HO, 850 Sum X

Posted 25 July 2020 - 09:21 PM

Dark there yet?  I had to stop mowing grass and come in to get something to eat.  The lake we are on was busy tonight.  My pontoon is sitting on the hoist...    Seems like all I do is work and mow grass.  Ha ha.. Some guys have the good life....  My wife says I am paying for my sins when I was younger, running all over the country drag racing.. including in Canada.. 



#39 Dynamo^Joe

Dynamo^Joe

    Metalhead

  • Sponsors
  • 8816 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Thunder Bay
  • Interests:SUMMIT platform SkiDoo's. Being a student of the TRA clutches.
  • Sled:850, 154, 3" - 13, 872 custom 120, 3"

Posted 06 August 2020 - 07:22 AM

In the moguls going slow under 20mph isn’t fun with the clutch engaging, disengaging. Jerky and Bit tiring
For sure. Any fix for it? Thanks
Can’t find the jerky 850 thread....

Rex.  You emailed me but your email bounces back and i think its because the email address is incorrect.



#40 Radicalrex

Radicalrex

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 335 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:WNY
  • Interests:Sleds,Bikes, wheelers, Toys.
  • Sled:19 Gade X 850

Posted 06 August 2020 - 08:33 AM

Rex. You emailed me but your email bounces back and i think its because the email address is incorrect.

My email is:
[email protected]
Thanks Joe


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Lead, follow or get out of the way..

#41 Dynamo^Joe

Dynamo^Joe

    Metalhead

  • Sponsors
  • 8816 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Thunder Bay
  • Interests:SUMMIT platform SkiDoo's. Being a student of the TRA clutches.
  • Sled:850, 154, 3" - 13, 872 custom 120, 3"

Posted 06 August 2020 - 10:53 AM

ok, this is what it says now

<[email protected]>: xxx4.7.0 [TSS04] Messages from xxx..21.224 temporarily deferred due to user complaints - 4.16.55.1; see https://help.yahoo.c...er/SLN3434.html

Bounced back to me again.

email me directly

info at i backshift dot calm.

 

does not matter.

here is what i wrote back to you

 

HI Ray.  Thanks for asking.

I have not forgotten about that thread.  I have different weights out at my summer cabin, I was going to show a picture comparing your stock 968 vs 2 other ramps that will smooth out the engagement surging.

I just been super busy prepping my cabin for having a small family reunion last week.  Now that’s all over, I’ll be able to one evening, get to take pics of the ramps and show the differences in them of what they will do compared to each other.

 

It would be a matter of getting a different, slight more heavy ramp and then a set of pivot bolt (lighter) weights to balance out the weight, having the same overall weight as your stock clutching; then the engine speed at full throttle will still be the same.

 

I’ll get back to you in that post.

Thanks man

joey

 



#42 Radicalrex

Radicalrex

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 335 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:WNY
  • Interests:Sleds,Bikes, wheelers, Toys.
  • Sled:19 Gade X 850

Posted 06 August 2020 - 04:44 PM

Thanks Joey, I tried that email address for you, won’t go through. Can you please send it to me again in this post or message as it appears please. Maybe a link style. I located your site on FB and messaged u there also. Thanks Ray


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Lead, follow or get out of the way..

#43 djm

djm

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13670 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fenton, Mi.
  • Sled:09 700HO TNT, 11 Summit 770HO, 850 Sum X

Posted 06 August 2020 - 08:57 PM

Thanks Joey, I tried that email address for you, won’t go through. Can you please send it to me again in this post or message as it appears please. Maybe a link style. I located your site on FB and messaged u there also. Thanks Ray


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[email protected]    This is his normal address and it works for me to get ahold of Joey..  Have communicated with him a couple of times in the last few days.. 

 

Have a couple of sets of popeyes and Ti bolts coming from him.    Can't wait for snow.. will probably try on grass.. ha ha... 



#44 Dynamo^Joe

Dynamo^Joe

    Metalhead

  • Sponsors
  • 8816 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Thunder Bay
  • Interests:SUMMIT platform SkiDoo's. Being a student of the TRA clutches.
  • Sled:850, 154, 3" - 13, 872 custom 120, 3"

Posted 07 August 2020 - 10:14 AM

Haha, please link me to the Facebook page that my business does not have. I Wana see it. Ibackshift does not hava page unless someone made it that I don't know of.
I don't have a page in my personal name either. FB marketing is junk.

#45 Dynamo^Joe

Dynamo^Joe

    Metalhead

  • Sponsors
  • 8816 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Thunder Bay
  • Interests:SUMMIT platform SkiDoo's. Being a student of the TRA clutches.
  • Sled:850, 154, 3" - 13, 872 custom 120, 3"

Posted 07 August 2020 - 10:17 AM

There is HSK Racing in Norway who has ibackshift kits (Norway & Sweden) distributor. Maybe you contacted them, thinkin it was my shop?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users