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#16 Daag44

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Posted 18 July 2020 - 02:02 PM

My 19 600R does the same thing, very jerky.

 
That's what I suspected. There are none around me, but I couldn't see how the 600R had raised the bar so high for a 600cc and even compete with the 850 for short distances, that it would be silky smooth. I figure it is somewhere in between the previous 600HOE and the 600RS with the manufacturing race tune.


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#17 Daag44

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Posted 18 July 2020 - 03:26 PM

Daag44 thanks for firing back up my thread and posting possibilities to review, and start hopefully In the best direction the first time.
I don’t foresee throwing in the towel on my 850x until exhausting some different ideas that it appears you have provided and influenced.

 
I think it was bold of BRP to give us two high powered sleds that fit the high strung throttle happy sled owners. During our conversation I realized that BRP have distanced the 2S from the 4S further to draw even more on their strengths. I want a 2S to be light, nimble and steroid induced power monster. In this context I could not be happier that we are talking about calming down a wild horse.
 
I am a proponent to the aftermarket, which ironically I got from BRP's response to my aftermarket question on SnoWest. I honestly didn't quite get the importance of the aftermarket until then. Just recently Dynamo^Joe spoke about the 1.8 Billion dollar industry which I had no clue was that big. That is the main reason I never put down the OEMs or the Aftermarket unless I make a mistake. In this respect I believe this is another perfect opportunity for the aftermarket to tailor the CVT for different riding styles and needs.

Detuning only appears to be counter intuitive until I look at the off-trail technical segment that require more control of the power to the track. You case was interesting and I think will help shed light for other trail riders who are uncomfortable to admit on a public forum that they could use a little smoother on-off throttle without giving up the brute force acceleration when its wanted.

I hope to see you swing by Northern NY this next season to ride the spare Mach Z and see how smooth BRP made it with stock clutching.


Edited by Daag44, 19 July 2020 - 07:39 AM.

Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#18 djm

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Posted 19 July 2020 - 12:22 AM

Some more threads on the issue.

 

https://www.dootalk....od-for-the-850/

 

https://www.dootalk....ed-drivability/



#19 groo

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Posted 19 July 2020 - 07:46 AM

Get an expedition extreme next time.

#20 djm

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Posted 19 July 2020 - 08:30 AM

Get an expedition extreme next time.

 

And you can guarantee that every expedition extreme is smooth as glass - everyone built?   How are they for getting out of a tree well in the mountains.. when you stick it in the soft snow???  

 

Calibration - fuel and clutching is never perfect..there are  always two tail ends to the bell curve... performance wise with fuel, air and clutch calibration, just like there is for belt alignment when you make it essentially non adjustable and rely on build tolerances. Some one gets these sleds that are built on the end of tolerances and they don't function like the normal sled.

 

I question if your suggestion is an answer to the guys current problem.   I suspect he wants to fix what he has now.  And not live with it until he buys his next sled.  

 

But it's possible he might entertain  your suggestion.  Too nose heavy to my way of thinking for my type of riding.. but we all like something different.


Edited by djm, 19 July 2020 - 10:26 AM.


#21 groo

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Posted 19 July 2020 - 09:29 AM

And you can guarantee that every expedition extreme is smooth as glass - everyone built? How are they for getting out of tree well in the mountains.. when you stick it is the soft snow???

Calibration - fuel and clutching is never perfect.. always an end to the bell curve... performance wise with fuel, air and clutch calibration, just like their is for belt alignment when you make it essentially non adjustable and rely on build tolerances. I question if your suggestion is an answer to the guys current problem. I suspect he wants to fix what he has now. And not live with it until he buys his next sled.

But it's possible he might entertain your suggestion. Too nose heavy to my way of thinking.

He wants it so it isnt engaging and disengaging constantly while going slow. Low range will do that, regardless if the clutching is only 90%
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#22 Daag44

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Posted 19 July 2020 - 09:56 AM

A link was provided earlier on page 1 for the full story and how important this is for the original poster, Radicalrex.


Edited by Daag44, 19 July 2020 - 10:02 AM.

Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#23 A7M266D

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Posted 19 July 2020 - 04:56 PM

The popeye weight by Ibackshift Joe was in part developed to assist in stopping this surge. Joe has found and I can concur with his findings through my own hands on testing that the surge can be eliminated. The addition of the popeye weight and a lower engagement start in the primary cures this.
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#24 Radicalrex

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Posted 20 July 2020 - 07:27 PM

The popeye weight by Ibackshift Joe was in part developed to assist in stopping this surge. Joe has found and I can concur with his findings through my own hands on testing that the surge can be eliminated. The addition of the popeye weight and a lower engagement start in the primary cures this.


This is great to read/hear and brings back promise! Please message me or post up the details of who I need to contact for the parts I need. Its great to hear from someone that actually has riddin, and knows it’s a success... I bet this thread will help many people wanting the same results. Much appreciated


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#25 djm

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Posted 20 July 2020 - 08:35 PM

He wants it so it isnt engaging and disengaging constantly while going slow. Low range will do that, regardless if the clutching is only 90%

 

I owe you an appology.. Been a while since I have looked at an Expedition Extreme.   It is an impressive sled with the 850, and the new2 speed trans with reverse is pretty neat..  Sorry, I was so ignorant of it's characteristics.  I suspect that 2 speed would be great for poking around in the woods.  Probably a bit heavy and located pretty high on the sled at the top of the chain case.  but still would probably work well ast solving the issue we are talking about.  And over all weight with the radiator, 20 inch track and 2 speed with reverse transmission is not all that heavy at 595 lbs dry.  Sorry I was so set in my ways.  



#26 djm

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Posted 20 July 2020 - 08:39 PM

The popeye weight by Ibackshift Joe was in part developed to assist in stopping this surge. Joe has found and I can concur with his findings through my own hands on testing that the surge can be eliminated. The addition of the popeye weight and a lower engagement start in the primary cures this.

 

I ordered a couple of sets of the popeyes from Joe to try, they coulpled with the lower engagement primary spring should work super on any of the sleds that have the off on issue.  The lower engagement helped my summit but did not cure the issue.  Might be that the popeyes finish the job.  



#27 A7M266D

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Posted 20 July 2020 - 09:18 PM

I ordered a couple of sets of the popeyes from Joe to try, they coulpled with the lower engagement primary spring should work super on any of the sleds that have the off on issue. The lower engagement helped my summit but did not cure the issue. Might be that the popeyes finish the job.

. They give a lot more squeeze and hold down low. Weight popeye vs stock spacer and deduct diff from pivot as a starting point.
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#28 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 22 July 2020 - 08:32 PM

When I get back to town, I'll be able to look up Buddy's specs and see what I can come up with for a reply. (on the lake havin a beer... Hee )

#29 djm

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Posted 22 July 2020 - 09:02 PM

When I get back to town, I'll be able to look up Buddy's specs and see what I can come up with for a reply. (on the lake havin a beer... Hee )

 

What's wrong with this picture, I am sitting here at work.. and you are out on the lake.. relaxing???  



#30 A7M266D

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Posted 23 July 2020 - 07:29 AM

What's wrong with this picture, I am sitting here at work.. and you are out on the lake.. relaxing???  

 

 

:D I work from my boat 1-2 days a week haha.  


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