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#61 ETECtrical

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 11:39 PM

Bringing back this thread - she's dead again!

 

Got a few hundred miles on it before it went back down. Dealer told me it was idling rough but taking throttle just fine, recommended new plugs and run it a bit. I did both of those things and was just going to live with the rough idle so long as it ran good otherwise. Spoiler alert: didn't work that way!

 

Sled would idle real rough but as soon as on the throttle smooth right out and run great. About 300 miles in i noticed a bog when i slowed down on the trail. Immediately went oh boy, here we go. It smoothed out after that and got my back to within house range. Stopped at a bar after a long run of 80+mph without a hiccup. Shut the sled off, went inside, came out a half hour later and went to start. Started on one cylinder, bogging terribly, backfired. Would only run on one. Got it back to the house like that, and guess what - NO PTO SPARK WHATSOEVER.

 

So i'm like cool, ignition coil and out. Installed my new ignition coil yesterday - still not an OUNCE of spark PTO side. Will still run on the mag cylinder. Compression 155-160 each hole.

 

I'll be honest, I now hate this sled. Electrical nightmare and at this point I'm not sure its worth the time or money to fix it. I'm not even sure it is fixable. Might replace the capacitor or something else easy, but other than that I'm at a complete loss. The new ECU fixed my problems for a couple hundred miles and now I'm back to square one.

 

Good thing I don't have much time to ride this year.



#62 Daag44

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Posted 30 January 2021 - 04:09 AM

I guess a welcome back is not fitting? :)

 

I did a review and remembered your swap testing was never completed. This was page 2, post #30 with a review on page 3, post #45 where I found a missing combination that I followed with three question marks.

 

There is reason to believe a wiring issue was never found and taxed the ignition coil drivers on the replacement ECM the same as the previous one. Initially I thought of a problem with the wiring between the ECM and MAG side ignition coil, but the first time it was the MAG side and now the PTO side. Combine this with the slew of codes and it appears the problem is elsewhere more generalized with the power output that feeds the ECM. This means cleaning the grounds and monitoring the 60Vdc circuit for the Engine Management, and the 12Vdc for the Battery Charging circuit for abnormal fluctuations.

 

The Ignition Coil/Wire swap test was the best I had ever seen or experienced. I was impressed with your work. I would continue on this path and go a step further with what the certified techs are shown. I will try to find a video from BRP for the four strokes which holds the same principals.

 

 

A couple things that stood out from your first round of troubleshooting.

 

- The 60Vdc circuit cranking test with abnormally high voltage. Page 3, post #42;

 

- The slew of codes shown on page 2, post #20.

 

 

The work you did was certainly a PITA, but it was extensive and you have much to draw from. I believe this time around you can find the smoking gun with less effort. I strongly suggest learning the overall Power Distribution and each ground, their location and use. For example what is the difference between a Harness Ground and an Engine Ground? Why is the Battery Ground only connected to the chassis? What use does the battery serve when the engine is running?

 

Over 95% of electrical problems are caused by the simplest of problems like a chaffed wire rubbing on the chassis, or a partially cut wire from being tied too tight, or corrosion. When it comes to the MPEM/ECM on a carb, SDI or E-TEC, a failure in any of the internal driving circuits is a sign of a underlying wiring issue, or a surge from boosting, or shorts to ground. There are not many problems to be found. The Carb is known for trouble with the ES/MS circuit, the SDI is known for the injector driving circuit, and the E-TEC is known for the injector driving circuit and DC/DC converter, but each of those are rare and caused by an external problem. Now add the ignition coil driving circuit which is also rare. The internal components can only suffer a certain amount of electrical abuse before they fail.

 

Keep the faith and find that smoking gun.


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R P-TEK Electrical Troubleshooting #1 and #2 
800R Turbo
850 Center Oil line for coolant pump melted
850 Main Oil line caught fire #1 and #2
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's and Ronn's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
Crankshaft runout - maximum allowable specs 
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Electrical - ECM drivers for Ignition Coils and E-TEC injectors 
Electrical - Diagnoses of a failed ECM
Electrical - 30A Battery Charging Fuse Socket Diagnoses and Relay
Electrical - Relay Coil Wine
Electrical - Relay Testing
Electrical - Battery Charging Relay Diagnostic 
Electrical - Troubleshooting with BRP video 
Electrical - Solder vs Crimp
Electrical - Diagram for Fanners on page 3
Engine Break-In 
Engine Weight 
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Electric Start troubleshooting
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC eRAVE position code recurring
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
E-TEC Voltage Rectifier Regulator troubleshooting
E-TEC Power Fades are not normal and can be fixed
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 Steering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Longevity - 800R E-TEC 
Mikuni o-ring for carb float assembly - Arctic Cat part# 6505-875 or from Amazon and eBay
Muffler Red Hot
Off-trail riding for flatlanders
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pictures - How to post with the correct orientation
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Power Loss - How to diagnose in the field
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Spark Plugs cracked
Squish - The limit
Squish - A discussion on head design
Stator and Relay Diagnostic 
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator Removal on page 3
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#63 Daag44

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Posted 30 January 2021 - 04:13 AM

I got lucky and found the video I wanted to show you. If you remember what I posted about the BRP Training Institute, this is one of their videos.
 
Note how much focus BRP puts on process. I want to add two more, pattern and bias which I demonstrated both in my previous reply. I showed pattern from my experience diagnosing the electrical, and I showed bias when I originally though it was wiring issue with the ignition coils. There is no way to escape bias 100% and it does serve a purpose much like fear. When troubleshooting our own vehicles we inherently make the strongest biases that end up being the obstacle. Conspiracy theories is the epitome of bias and more accurately Confirmation Bias. All that I am doing is serving as a bouncing board to keep those biases in check.
 
The change in season for a Powersport technicians is a big deal. It gets worse if a technician doesn't enjoy working a sleds. It gets even worse with tough problems that don't get resolved, lack of support from their peers, training from their employer, and time constraints. Some dealer technicians have admitted dreading the snowmobile season. Technical support can be a vicious circle. In this case you are the technician with no immediate time constraints, and the largest snowmobile forum to draw from.


How-To Electrical Diagnostics and Troubleshooting
 
How is it that some technicians seem to instinctively know where to look in order to quickly diagnose an electrical problem? The answer is years of experience, a thorough understanding of how the various vehicle systems operate, and a good diagnostic process that allows the to work efficiently.

Most electrical Troubleshooter work methodologically whether they are aware of it or not. They only check the components that can cause the problem and perform all the easiest checks first.


 
 
 


Edited by Daag44, 03 February 2021 - 01:53 PM.

Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R P-TEK Electrical Troubleshooting #1 and #2 
800R Turbo
850 Center Oil line for coolant pump melted
850 Main Oil line caught fire #1 and #2
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's and Ronn's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
Crankshaft runout - maximum allowable specs 
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Electrical - ECM drivers for Ignition Coils and E-TEC injectors 
Electrical - Diagnoses of a failed ECM
Electrical - 30A Battery Charging Fuse Socket Diagnoses and Relay
Electrical - Relay Coil Wine
Electrical - Relay Testing
Electrical - Battery Charging Relay Diagnostic 
Electrical - Troubleshooting with BRP video 
Electrical - Solder vs Crimp
Electrical - Diagram for Fanners on page 3
Engine Break-In 
Engine Weight 
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Electric Start troubleshooting
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC eRAVE position code recurring
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
E-TEC Voltage Rectifier Regulator troubleshooting
E-TEC Power Fades are not normal and can be fixed
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 Steering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Longevity - 800R E-TEC 
Mikuni o-ring for carb float assembly - Arctic Cat part# 6505-875 or from Amazon and eBay
Muffler Red Hot
Off-trail riding for flatlanders
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pictures - How to post with the correct orientation
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Power Loss - How to diagnose in the field
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Spark Plugs cracked
Squish - The limit
Squish - A discussion on head design
Stator and Relay Diagnostic 
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator Removal on page 3
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#64 Daag44

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Posted 30 January 2021 - 05:40 AM

That video is the most comprehensive troubleshooting guide I have ever seen in my life time. I give it a 100%!
 
Since you don't have much riding ahead, I expect you to click the CC option and write it down. I have already written down the first two paragraphs, and I have done my share with other BRP videos. I do my own which does take experience, but you need to start somewhere. I also do my own circuit diagrams much like it shows between 7m40s to 8m40s. I have posted a number of diagrams on DooTalk with outlines of individual circuits before BRP uploaded this video, so it is nothing new to me. But I still find those 18min of explanations are mind blowing. I expect you will recognize all the good work you have done thus far, and the areas you need to push further. There is no doubt that the work you have done was impressive.
 
Just in case you thought to have more than your share, even the old sleds that are often perceived as simpler will give their owners a run for their money :)  It may be easy to hate a sled after so much grief, but what would you tell this other guy?
 
96 Mach Z 780 No Spark
Started By Pwnage1337, Jan 12 2021 08:00 PM


Edited by Daag44, 30 January 2021 - 09:02 PM.

Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R P-TEK Electrical Troubleshooting #1 and #2 
800R Turbo
850 Center Oil line for coolant pump melted
850 Main Oil line caught fire #1 and #2
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's and Ronn's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
Crankshaft runout - maximum allowable specs 
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Electrical - ECM drivers for Ignition Coils and E-TEC injectors 
Electrical - Diagnoses of a failed ECM
Electrical - 30A Battery Charging Fuse Socket Diagnoses and Relay
Electrical - Relay Coil Wine
Electrical - Relay Testing
Electrical - Battery Charging Relay Diagnostic 
Electrical - Troubleshooting with BRP video 
Electrical - Solder vs Crimp
Electrical - Diagram for Fanners on page 3
Engine Break-In 
Engine Weight 
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Electric Start troubleshooting
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC eRAVE position code recurring
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
E-TEC Voltage Rectifier Regulator troubleshooting
E-TEC Power Fades are not normal and can be fixed
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 Steering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Longevity - 800R E-TEC 
Mikuni o-ring for carb float assembly - Arctic Cat part# 6505-875 or from Amazon and eBay
Muffler Red Hot
Off-trail riding for flatlanders
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pictures - How to post with the correct orientation
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Power Loss - How to diagnose in the field
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Spark Plugs cracked
Squish - The limit
Squish - A discussion on head design
Stator and Relay Diagnostic 
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator Removal on page 3
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#65 ETECtrical

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Posted 06 February 2021 - 03:03 PM

Thanks for the info. I got around to thinking about what you said about me getting high voltage readings off the capacitor - do you think this could be the problem? If the capacitor is providing too much voltage (more than the 60VDC it's supposed to store and provide to fire the injectors upon start), could that theoretically burn out the ignition coil drivers in the ECM? 

 

What I don't understand is how that would cause erratic idle/fire in one cylinder, but I could see it leading to overall death of the coil drivers in the ECM after enough abuse.

 

What seems more likely - that or a chafed wire grounding out somewhere? Just sitting here thinking as I won't have access to the sled for a while yet.

 

Another interesting tid-bit that is different this time than last time is that this time the sled will still start and run on one cylinder. The last time, everything died at once and i got zero signs of life from the sled whatsoever after it died initially despite having spark to one cylinder. It seems that this time around the injectors are still firing - or at least one is - whereas the last time neither were firing at all.


Edited by ETECtrical, 06 February 2021 - 03:06 PM.


#66 Daag44

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  • Interests:1973 Olympic
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Posted 06 February 2021 - 06:30 PM

The capacitor itself cannot provide more voltage. It is a battery of sorts. The higher voltage would be generated by the VR in the ECM for whatever reason. Since the VR in the previous ECM was generating 87 Vdc while cranking over the engine, I would want to check this with the new ECM. I would also check the voltage when it is running. It should be a clean/steady 60 Vdc +/- a few volts. If it not clean/steady, then I would question if it is a result of the VR or a failed component.

Do you have the voltage with the new ECM when it was working right?

 


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R P-TEK Electrical Troubleshooting #1 and #2 
800R Turbo
850 Center Oil line for coolant pump melted
850 Main Oil line caught fire #1 and #2
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's and Ronn's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
Crankshaft runout - maximum allowable specs 
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Electrical - ECM drivers for Ignition Coils and E-TEC injectors 
Electrical - Diagnoses of a failed ECM
Electrical - 30A Battery Charging Fuse Socket Diagnoses and Relay
Electrical - Relay Coil Wine
Electrical - Relay Testing
Electrical - Battery Charging Relay Diagnostic 
Electrical - Troubleshooting with BRP video 
Electrical - Solder vs Crimp
Electrical - Diagram for Fanners on page 3
Engine Break-In 
Engine Weight 
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Electric Start troubleshooting
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC eRAVE position code recurring
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
E-TEC Voltage Rectifier Regulator troubleshooting
E-TEC Power Fades are not normal and can be fixed
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 Steering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Longevity - 800R E-TEC 
Mikuni o-ring for carb float assembly - Arctic Cat part# 6505-875 or from Amazon and eBay
Muffler Red Hot
Off-trail riding for flatlanders
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pictures - How to post with the correct orientation
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Power Loss - How to diagnose in the field
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Spark Plugs cracked
Squish - The limit
Squish - A discussion on head design
Stator and Relay Diagnostic 
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator Removal on page 3
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#67 ETECtrical

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Posted 06 February 2021 - 08:35 PM

I do not. I didn't think to check because it was running great outside of a slightly choppy idle. It will still run on one at this point, and run cleanly, so i would assume the VDC going to MAG is fine. On the other hand, with the last ECM the MAG side wouldn't fire either, and I didn't change any other components. So that's interesting.

 

I'm sure that the PTO side is the side that was causing the choppy idle and then obviously eventually burned out. No way to check now really without getting another ECM first. I think i'll drag the sled home and yank the entire wiring harness and trace backwards from PTO coil. Really wish I had access to buds to see if I could activate the injectors or coils through the program and see if they worked.

 

The part about this that really confuses me is that with the new ECU it had a choppy idle from the first start, but took throttle perfectly. I cant imagine why that would be, because with the original ECU it idled perfectly until the second it burned up.

 

I should probably find a way to test all components. VR, coils, capacitor again. 


Edited by ETECtrical, 06 February 2021 - 08:43 PM.


#68 xcrsp440

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Posted 06 February 2021 - 09:07 PM

A infrared thermometer can tell you which side is misfiring. Aim it at one side of the y pipe, then the other. Lower temp side is where your problem lies. The thermometers are cheap.

#69 ETECtrical

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Posted 06 February 2021 - 09:13 PM

PTO cylinder is dead, no spark at all and it isn't the coil.

 

A infrared thermometer can tell you which side is misfiring. Aim it at one side of the y pipe, then the other. Lower temp side is where your problem lies. The thermometers are cheap.



#70 Daag44

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Posted 07 February 2021 - 04:37 AM

Did the dealer find any codes?
Where did you check for chaffed wires?
A CanDoo Pro will trigger the ignition coils.

The J1B connector - second from the top - wires the devices to run the engine: Ignition Coils, Injectors, Oil pump, Fuel Pump and eRAVE. There is also a small harness that branches up just before the connector that sits against the two orange coil wires, at least on the 2015 Freeride that I am looking at. Take a closer look at that J1B connector to see if the pins are well seated and the wires are well crimped to the terminals. It is an easy connector to work on.

With two sets of Ignition Coils and two ECM, there is probably something wrong with the wiring. I spoke to someone just this week who used a megger to test the wires on his E-TEC. I never got that sophisticated other than using audio signal tools in telecommunications, however there is always a way around, such as wiring a 12Vdc load to measure voltage drop. I have two 12Vdc incandescent shop lights that works well for this. A headlight from a snowmobile or automobile will work fine as well.  

I still think it is worth looking the power distribution which is easy enough to measure off of the capacitor. I am sure that you realized why I asked if the voltage was checked on the replacement ECM. I could also have said if another ECM comes into play, then make sure to check this.

The J1B connector has a lot going on besides wiring the devices. It holds half of the high voltage wires with two positives and three grounds. J2 holds the other half of the high voltage wires. There is no known issue with those plugs that I am aware of. I bring it up because if there is an issue with other devices that are fed high voltage, than they may be causing a surge. There are three devices that get fed high voltage, the injectors, the ignition coils, and the fuel pump. All three devices are high power consumers. At idle the injectors and coils are low and consume increasingly more with rpm.

The fuel pump gets modulated on the ground side for lower voltage. As the rpm rises the fuel pump gets more power to maintain fuel flow to cool the ECM and injectors. I make the distinction with the fuel pump only because I consider it to be a high power consumer from cranking speed to high rpm.

The key is to check the voltage at different rpm: cranking speed, idle and at higher rpm. At cranking speed the three sets of the stator windings are regulated in series to get higher cranking voltage. Once the engine starts they are regulated in parallel for more current like any other VRR (Voltage Rectifier Regulator).

There are good reasons that I focus on power. One of them is that earlier E-TECs were were having issues with the stator which BRP documented in a bulletin we all have access to. Another reason is a software update that decreased the polling interval of the voltage measurements taken by the ECM. The third and most important is the peculiar power fades and engine failures that trigger no codes. For the most part this is a non issue from MY2014 and on, so your 2015 is safe. The MY2013 that I have ridden frequently and followed closely has not had this problem, as well as all the local 2013 to 2016, so I know it wasn't all sleds. The point that I am trying to make is that when there is a problem, then it is time to go full throttle with diagnosing the power distribution.

You have already seen how easy it is to measure off of the Capacitor, and far more telling with the use of a multimeter than BUDS. Keep in mind that BUDS only reads what the ECM polls, and at intervals that have been extended to avoid false negative readings.

Below is a short 6 post thread that gives an idea of the effects of Power Distribution to the injectors and coils.

800 etec stator testing
Started By wilb, Jan 23 2017 06:06 PM


ECM connectors from top to bottom:

J1A - Sensors.

J1B - Devices to run the engine: Injectors, Coils, Fuel/Oil pumps, eRAVE.
J1B - Distributes High Voltage power 60 Vdc.

  J2 - Feeds power generated by the stator to the VRR.
  J2 - Distributes High Voltage power 60 Vdc.
  J2 - Distributes  Low Voltage power 12 Vdc.


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R P-TEK Electrical Troubleshooting #1 and #2 
800R Turbo
850 Center Oil line for coolant pump melted
850 Main Oil line caught fire #1 and #2
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's and Ronn's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
Crankshaft runout - maximum allowable specs 
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Electrical - ECM drivers for Ignition Coils and E-TEC injectors 
Electrical - Diagnoses of a failed ECM
Electrical - 30A Battery Charging Fuse Socket Diagnoses and Relay
Electrical - Relay Coil Wine
Electrical - Relay Testing
Electrical - Battery Charging Relay Diagnostic 
Electrical - Troubleshooting with BRP video 
Electrical - Solder vs Crimp
Electrical - Diagram for Fanners on page 3
Engine Break-In 
Engine Weight 
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Electric Start troubleshooting
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC eRAVE position code recurring
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
E-TEC Voltage Rectifier Regulator troubleshooting
E-TEC Power Fades are not normal and can be fixed
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 Steering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Longevity - 800R E-TEC 
Mikuni o-ring for carb float assembly - Arctic Cat part# 6505-875 or from Amazon and eBay
Muffler Red Hot
Off-trail riding for flatlanders
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pictures - How to post with the correct orientation
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Power Loss - How to diagnose in the field
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Spark Plugs cracked
Squish - The limit
Squish - A discussion on head design
Stator and Relay Diagnostic 
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator Removal on page 3
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#71 Daag44

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Posted 20 March 2021 - 11:14 AM

I wanted to link this thread to a 600R E-TEC which has a failed injector drivers in the ECM. After seeing what you went through and still no resolve, I find it difficult to be optimistic for any ignition or injector driver failure, but my hopes are up for the 600R. I hope that no one else has to go through the craziness, and if anyone does I hope your experience will help them sort it out. 
 

600R Etec Will Not Start
Started By warbee, Feb 19 2021 07:41 AM

Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R P-TEK Electrical Troubleshooting #1 and #2 
800R Turbo
850 Center Oil line for coolant pump melted
850 Main Oil line caught fire #1 and #2
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's and Ronn's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
Crankshaft runout - maximum allowable specs 
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Electrical - ECM drivers for Ignition Coils and E-TEC injectors 
Electrical - Diagnoses of a failed ECM
Electrical - 30A Battery Charging Fuse Socket Diagnoses and Relay
Electrical - Relay Coil Wine
Electrical - Relay Testing
Electrical - Battery Charging Relay Diagnostic 
Electrical - Troubleshooting with BRP video 
Electrical - Solder vs Crimp
Electrical - Diagram for Fanners on page 3
Engine Break-In 
Engine Weight 
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Electric Start troubleshooting
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC eRAVE position code recurring
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
E-TEC Voltage Rectifier Regulator troubleshooting
E-TEC Power Fades are not normal and can be fixed
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 Steering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Longevity - 800R E-TEC 
Mikuni o-ring for carb float assembly - Arctic Cat part# 6505-875 or from Amazon and eBay
Muffler Red Hot
Off-trail riding for flatlanders
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pictures - How to post with the correct orientation
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Power Loss - How to diagnose in the field
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Spark Plugs cracked
Squish - The limit
Squish - A discussion on head design
Stator and Relay Diagnostic 
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator Removal on page 3
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#72 ETECtrical

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Posted 28 March 2021 - 12:33 PM

I'll keep you guys updated. After checking out the codes (all short related) and based on my lack of any activity on the PTO side once again, i'm fairly certain there's a short somewhere in my wiring harness or electrical system that is overloading the ECM and frying things out. I ordered a new (used) harness and will install it when it arrives (first week of April sometime). I also ordered a new capacitor just to be safe. I'm sure i'll need a new ECM as well, just dragging my feet on spending another 300+ dollars lol.

 

Update: i bit the bullet. New ECM in route. This better solve my problems or i may be having a snowmobile shaped bonfire sometime this summer.


Edited by ETECtrical, 28 March 2021 - 01:19 PM.


#73 ETECtrical

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 07:13 PM

Ripped out the old harness, installed the new one along with new ECU and capacitor. I aggressively cleaned every ground as well. I'll be taking it to work tomorrow and should find time to get it programmed by the end of the week to see if it runs. Hoping the coils/injectors are all still functional.


Edited by ETECtrical, 11 April 2021 - 07:24 PM.


#74 Daag44

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  • Location:South Shore, Quebec
  • Interests:1973 Olympic
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Posted 11 April 2021 - 10:55 PM

This is one of the toughest problems to solve. I am glad you kept going.


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R P-TEK Electrical Troubleshooting #1 and #2 
800R Turbo
850 Center Oil line for coolant pump melted
850 Main Oil line caught fire #1 and #2
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's and Ronn's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
Crankshaft runout - maximum allowable specs 
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Electrical - ECM drivers for Ignition Coils and E-TEC injectors 
Electrical - Diagnoses of a failed ECM
Electrical - 30A Battery Charging Fuse Socket Diagnoses and Relay
Electrical - Relay Coil Wine
Electrical - Relay Testing
Electrical - Battery Charging Relay Diagnostic 
Electrical - Troubleshooting with BRP video 
Electrical - Solder vs Crimp
Electrical - Diagram for Fanners on page 3
Engine Break-In 
Engine Weight 
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Electric Start troubleshooting
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC eRAVE position code recurring
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
E-TEC Voltage Rectifier Regulator troubleshooting
E-TEC Power Fades are not normal and can be fixed
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 Steering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Longevity - 800R E-TEC 
Mikuni o-ring for carb float assembly - Arctic Cat part# 6505-875 or from Amazon and eBay
Muffler Red Hot
Off-trail riding for flatlanders
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pictures - How to post with the correct orientation
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Power Loss - How to diagnose in the field
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Spark Plugs cracked
Squish - The limit
Squish - A discussion on head design
Stator and Relay Diagnostic 
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator Removal on page 3
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#75 ETECtrical

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Posted 14 April 2021 - 09:03 PM

Got everything programmed in. Needed a new ignition coil too. Runs, but still a bit rough at idle and seemingly misfiring. With throttle all seems normal. These were the exact symptoms the last time around and after a few hundred miles the new ECU went bye bye. Not confident in the slightest that the same thing isn't going to happen again.

 

I've now replaced everything electrical on the sled except for the stator and pickups. Do i do it?






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