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Steering effort difference between models


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#1 ncapster

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 11:52 AM

So I've read reports of the BC steering lighter than the 137s & 129s. And after my little demo ride despite the conditions & TS skis I came away convinced Doo did something different with the 9Ts to reduce steering effort. When it comes to the BC at first I thought it was just the weight difference (35 lbs or so) between the SHOT and C-Motion. But all that weight savings is out back, not over the skis. The heaviest part of ES is the battery which is now located behind the seat. Then I thought maybe it's the BC specific spindles. I remembered some guy selling MPS or Mechanical Power Steering for Yamahas. A quick Google search brought up his web site and the MPS is achieved by simply extending the distance between the tie rod & spindle via a lever for more mechanical advantage. I then went to Doo's site to zoom in on the BC spindles but I couldn't see any difference with the naked eye that would explain the BC steering lighter. So I turned to the parts site. If you pull up the BC 850's steering you can see it doesn't have a rack. You can also see that the steering post has a throw to it and a linkage at the bottom which give it mechanical advantage. If you pull up the Renegades or MXZs the X & XRS (rack equipped) models have pretty much a straight steering post & no linkage (lever at the bottom of the post). Then look at the TNTs & Adrenalines, they have a throw & linkage just like the BC. If you check out the 900 Turbos both the Adrenaline / Enduro & the X / XRS models come with a throw & a linkage even though the X / XRS Turbos have the rack just like the 2 strokes. So there you have it. If you want a lighter steering 2S G4 buy a BC or a TNT or an Adrenaline. This is for 2019 & prior models, I know Doo is nixing the rack on the X so maybe the 2020 X will have the same steering set-up as the older TNTs & Adrenalines? Anybody have any back-to-back same day same condition seat time between a similar set-up (ski / carbide combo) MXZ TNT 850 vs say a MXZ X or XRS 850 or Renegade Adrenaline 850 vs a Renegade X or XRS 850 to confirm my thoughts ???


Edited by ncapster, 09 May 2019 - 11:59 AM.



#2 razer

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 08:51 PM

I wish your theory was correct but imo there is no late model skidoo that steers easy for my old bones

#3 Thumb2bar

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 06:06 AM

I wish your theory was correct but imo there is no late model skidoo that steers easy for my old bones

Word.

#4 bar549

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 09:33 AM

I personally feel its more about how they are set up. All of my new sleds from the factory, steered very easy until I added carbide and made adjustments to them, to handle the way I wanted them too. Although my current 2016 Blizzard rails corners and I feel it has the lightest steering of any sled I have ever owned. Rode a G4 2019 900T last season and it had light steering and railed. We normally ride 200+ and some times 300+ mile days, range in age from 45 to 65 and no issues with heavy steering (all Doos). I have had the opportunity to do several demo rides over the years and found them difficult at best to get a good feel for how a sled will ride and handle for me personally, I have found the set up all over the board from too stiff to, too soft. What I take away from Demo Rides is how I feel sitting and standing on the sled, everything else is unknown until I take delivery and put miles on it and set it up the way I like it to handle. The BC has a non Coupled Skid compared to the other sleds and that can make a huge difference.


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#5 ncapster

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 10:02 AM

I wish your theory was correct but imo there is no late model skidoo that steers easy for my old bones


Yeah, a quick check of my 09 and 2012 on the Doo parts site shot my theory all to heck. Any mechanical geniuses on here??? Where's Daag when you need him...LOL


#6 snowshreder

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 10:12 AM

Dont know why but I feel my 900T had a lighter steering effort than any of my 1200's. Guess I thought it was the G4 vs. XS or XR



#7 A7M266D

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 12:26 PM

The back country models steer easier because of the drop chain case there is less weight on the front end with how the skid geometry is.
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#8 djm

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 12:49 PM

I have written on the Gen 4 MXZ X and XRS rack steering vs the TNT non rack steering often and I have swapped sleds many times on the same day between rack and non rack steering.  For old guys probably any one over about mid 50's - I am in my mid 70's they will notice you can  ride longer without tiring on the rack steering sleds.  They have more leverage and don't turn as sharply as the non rack sleds.  You get much less kick back from wooped out mogoled trails with the rack steering.  A few years back, Jamie (A7M266D) put the rack steering off a 600RS on his XS sled and I followed suit and did the same thing on one of my XP's and saw a similar improvement in effort and reduced feed back.  

 

That said, the reason your Back Country steers lighter probably has to do with the uncoupled rear skid.  and the fact that it tends to lift the skis out of the snow on accels.   And Bar549 is also correct, it is also mixed up in how you set up your sled.. if you go light on the spring pressure on the skis and heavy on the center (front kid spring) your sled will steer lighter too.. won't turn as tightly as there is less pressure on the carbides.  But it will tend to feel lighter.  

 

If I trail ride my Gen4 uncoupled Summit X (non rack steering) with my buds on MXZ X and XRS (with rack steering) on  a tight rough trail it tends to tire me out. And I swap with one of their X's even a renegade and steering is much easier on my arms, I can survive the rest of the day.    So I recently bought the rack steering from a Gen 4 MXZ X from Rene and Mike on here and my Gen 4 Summit X it will have the extra weight of the rack steering on it next year but I will enjoy it more.

 

Ha ha what you young bucks have to look forward too.  It is hard to maintain body strength as  you age..  and once you cross into the 70's you really notice it, but if I look back I suspect you start loosing muscle mass in your later 50's and it continues as you age into your later 60's and I have really noticed it in my 70's   You start paying for all of the fun and broken bones you had in your younger years with arthritis.  Anyway, in your 20's thru you mid 50's you probably wont notice the difference in steering efforts.  But there is a reason they put the rack steering back in the 600RS race sleds back in 2015 I think it was, because like mountain riders, racers don't like adding weight but it made them less tiring to ride  on snow cross tracks and it is also easier to hold a line in the moguls... even the young strong snow cross racer's benefited.  

 

We could get into Ackerman, anti Ackerman vs Parallel steering, but it is easier to keep that out of the discussion.   Suffice it to say, old guys, smaller women and younger riders will appreciate the rack steering sleds at the end of the day.   It is leverage and geometery.  But you can confuse the issue with the way you set up your sleds.  Pull the skid strap down, put a lot of ski spring pressure and lighten the center skid spring to rail corners and only hydraulic or electric power steering will help you.


Edited by djm, 10 May 2019 - 01:07 PM.


#9 ncapster

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 01:14 PM

The back country models steer easier because of the drop chain case there is less weight on the front end with how the skid geometry is.


I thought the dropped chain case on mtn sleds was just for the attack angle of the track to help them get up on top of the pow easier? How would a less steep track angle effect steering effort?


#10 ncapster

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 01:40 PM

Wow, I see it now. The FTS looks way longer on the BC. The dropped chain case was probably just to " maintain " track angle...LOL Holy weight transfer Batman... Ok, so now what the heck did Doo do different with the Wide Body???




#11 djm

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 02:05 PM

So I've read reports of the BC steering lighter than the 137s & 129s. And after my little demo ride despite the conditions & TS skis I came away convinced Doo did something different with the 9Ts to reduce steering effort. When it comes to the BC at first I thought it was just the weight difference (35 lbs or so) between the SHOT and C-Motion. But all that weight savings is out back, not over the skis. The heaviest part of ES is the battery which is now located behind the seat. Then I thought maybe it's the BC specific spindles. I remembered some guy selling MPS or Mechanical Power Steering for Yamahas. A quick Google search brought up his web site and the MPS is achieved by simply extending the distance between the tie rod & spindle via a lever for more mechanical advantage. I then went to Doo's site to zoom in on the BC spindles but I couldn't see any difference with the naked eye that would explain the BC steering lighter. So I turned to the parts site. If you pull up the BC 850's steering you can see it doesn't have a rack. You can also see that the steering post has a throw to it and a linkage at the bottom which give it mechanical advantage. If you pull up the Renegades or MXZs the X & XRS (rack equipped) models have pretty much a straight steering post & no linkage (lever at the bottom of the post). Then look at the TNTs & Adrenalines, they have a throw & linkage just like the BC. If you check out the 900 Turbos both the Adrenaline / Enduro & the X / XRS models come with a throw & a linkage even though the X / XRS Turbos have the rack just like the 2 strokes. So there you have it. If you want a lighter steering 2S G4 buy a BC or a TNT or an Adrenaline. This is for 2019 & prior models, I know Doo is nixing the rack on the X so maybe the 2020 X will have the same steering set-up as the older TNTs & Adrenalines? Anybody have any back-to-back same day same condition seat time between a similar set-up (ski / carbide combo) MXZ TNT 850 vs say a MXZ X or XRS 850 or Renegade Adrenaline 850 vs a Renegade X or XRS 850 to confirm my thoughts ???

 

I didn't read the start of this thread.. your first thoughts.. 

This statement " If you want a lighter steering 2S G4 buy a BC or a TNT or an Adrenaline."  is totally wrong. 

 

They have less leverage and lack the straight through movement to both spindles on the non rack steering Gen4 TNT and Adrenaline sleds.  The effort is higher on these sleds but they do turn sharper.  You will be less tired after riding the MXZ X and XRS at the end of the day.   No question.  I usually finish the day on one of my younger buds X or XRS if we are riding trails.  Ha ha.. I might not get home if left to the non rack steering Gen4. 

 

 And as mentioned in my previous note, I am putting the rack steering out of a Gen 4 X on my Gen 4 summit because I am a really old guy that still likes to ride.    As previously mentioned steering efforts get messed up in how guys and gals set their sleds up.   Your back country like my summit tends to life the skis on accel due to skid geometery.. and that gives you the false sense of light steering.  

 

When I am doing the swap, I will measure the lever arms on the spindles and the steering column and give you those numbers.  The advantage will be to the rack set up.  It is why they turn less sharply.... vs the non rack which turns more sharply or tighter radius.


Edited by djm, 10 May 2019 - 02:07 PM.


#12 Daag44

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 02:34 PM

I thought the dropped chain case on mtn sleds was just for the attack angle of the track to help them get up on top of the pow easier? How would a less steep track angle effect steering effort?

 

The greater the attack angle, the greater the force from the track that pushes the sled up on top of snow vs forward.

 

Dropping of the chaincase is for clearance. While it does the opposite to what is needed for off-trail, the geometry is adjusted to gain the desired attack angle.


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#13 ncapster

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 04:06 PM

^^^ I would think a sharper angle would act more like a snow plow versus a more gradual angle that would help the sled get up on top of the surface of the pow???




#14 djm

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 05:22 PM

^^^ I would think a sharper angle would act more like a snow plow versus a more gradual angle that would help the sled get up on top of the surface of the pow???

 

I agree with you on this one....  the shallower angle ...between the drive wheels and the bottom of the skid.. the easier it is to get up on the snow... 



#15 Daag44

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 05:52 PM

Yeah, a quick check of my 09 and 2012 on the Doo parts site shot my theory all to heck. Any mechanical geniuses on here??? Where's Daag when you need him...LOL


Ncapster, you tend to start good topics that make us think lol  I'll do the best I can with a Markup to show what I see, but you might me surprised that I'm not seeing any REV-olutionary tech. I can easily argue that it is moving the G4 forward the many steps back the G2 took a decade ago in 2008.

Note that the following two paragraphs refers to the Rack Steering System on the Rev Gen 1 (G1).
 
The G1 REV/RT has a pretty elaborate Rack comprising of a Track Rod and two Idler Arms connected to the Frame via a Plate. The Track Rod connects both Tie Rods, and a Link connects the Track Rod to the Steering Arm.
 
The Idler Arms are called as such since they don't have any direct linkage between the Steering Shaft Plate and Tie Rods. It's not much different in the mechanism, but it helps to distinguish the Rack system on the G1 from the G4 which has a Drag Rod that links the Steering Shaft Plate (aka Pitman Arm) to the Bellcrank Steering Arm.

When comparing the Rack on a G4 to a G4 without rack that uses only a Steering Arm, then there is a big difference. But I don't see much difference with the G1. The biggest difference I see with the G4 Rack is when the steering is straight the G4 makes a right angle between the Link and Swivel Arm, whereas the G1 has the Link offset to the Track Rod by roughly 5 degrees. In other words the G1 doesn't push the Track Rod straight, but rather on a slight angle. It would be like pushing a stuck car from the side vs the rear. I doubt it makes a noticeable difference especially when compared to the difference the suspension setup makes, but everything counts on longer rides.
 
Also note that BRP doesn't sell the G4 Twin Bellcrank Rack steering system as easier to steer than the G4 Tripod Steering System.
 
For the terminology, what BRP refers to a Pitman Arm I refer to a Tripod Plate as mentioned in an International Research Journal of Engineering and Technology (IRJET). Click here for the research paper.

 

New for 2017 Exclusively on Gen4 REV platform sleds, the RAS 3 further refines the RAS 2 geometry for more precise handling, especially in extreme bumps and in deep snow. MXZ and Renegade X models also feature a new rack steering system (vs. a Pitman arm) that further sharpens precision in bumps.

 

 

Click here for pictures of the G4 Tripod Steering Mechanism.

 

 

 

G4 Twin Bellcrank Rack Steering Mechanism
 
G4 Twin Bellcrank Rack Steering Mechanism - Markup JPG.jpg

 

G4 Twin Bellcrank Rack Steering Mechanism 2.jpg

 

G4 Twin Bellcrank Rack Steering Mechanism 3.jpg

 

G4 Twin Bellcrank Rack Steering Mechanism 4.jpg


Edited by Daag44, 14 May 2019 - 08:55 PM.

Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R P-TEK Electrical Troubleshooting #1 and #2 
800R Turbo
850 Center Oil line for coolant pump melted
850 Main Oil line caught fire #1 and #2
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's and Ronn's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses of a failed ECM
Electrical - Solder vs Crimp
Electrical Diagram for Fanners on page 3
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Electric Start troubleshooting
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC eRAVE position code recurring
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
E-TEC Voltage Rectifier Regulator troubleshooting
E-TEC Power Fades are not normal and can be fixed
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 Steering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Longevity - 800R E-TEC 
Mikuni o-ring for carb float assembly - Arctic Cat part# 6505-875 or from Amazon and eBay
Muffler Red Hot
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pictures - How to post with the correct orientation
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Power Loss - How to diagnose in the field
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Spark Plugs cracked
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator Removal on page 3
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix





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