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Summit X 800R ETEC - Vibration at idle - Crankshaft runout?


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#1 Nathan007

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 12:14 PM

Hello!

My brother recently bought a Summit 800 Etec 2013, sled has approx 4500km, i'm new to those machines but learning quickly. I notice it vibrates alot at idle, so much you see the enging shakind and primary clutch kinda bouncing around. But as soon as you give some gas, lets say go to 1500-2000 rpm it runs smooth it's unbeleivable! Nothing like my GTX 550F which runs really smooth.. It seems to be "normal" for those machines from what i've read on forums in the last days.

 

I got a shop manual with specs for crankshaft measurements, but i did not have time to check with the clutch removed (had a day do a "tuneup"), i used a dial gauge to check the crankshaft runout, but on the outer part of the clutch (lets say top drum) and got .030" which i consider alot, but could not find any specs with the clutch, only on the crankshaft itself.

 

Anybody got measures, or at least do you guys think we can finish up the month 1/2 of riding season without blowing anything? (mostly trails, some lake fun and woods exploration, nothing too crazy lol)

 

Thanks!



#2 Ski-B

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 12:25 PM

You need to remove the primary clutch and measure the run out on the center of the crank taper.

 

My guess is your primary clutch has not been indexed properly to the crank.

 

And the torque stop on the front left side of engine mount...needs to be set up tight.


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#3 Funkymasta

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 12:28 PM

Engine spport(s) might be kaput.

You also mentionned reving to 1500rpm, what is the idle speed of the sled ? Sound low to me if you have to rev it to 1500

#4 winter brew

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 02:36 PM

 Most do at low rpm...resonant frequency vs excessive runout are 2 different things.  if it gets better with RPM it is likely fine. If it got worse with RPM that is a bad sign.  Worth checking PTO runout with that many km's just for peace of mind. A worn clutch will also show more shake at low RPM, or possibly sacked out motor-mounts.



#5 jdrmx

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 10:23 PM

Most do at low rpm...resonant frequency vs excessive runout are 2 different things. if it gets better with RPM it is likely fine. If it got worse with RPM that is a bad sign. Worth checking PTO runout with that many km's just for peace of mind. A worn clutch will also show more shake at low RPM, or possibly sacked out motor-mounts.

I agree with the clutch wear


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#6 Daag44

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 12:55 AM

0.030" runout on anything is an obvious problem. It doesn't even fall in the grey area. Keep plugging away at it and you'll find the cause.


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R P-TEK Electrical Troubleshooting #1 and #2 
800R Turbo
850 Center Oil line for coolant pump melted
850 Main Oil line caught fire #1 and #2
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's and Ronn's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
Crankshaft runout - maximum allowable specs 
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Electrical - ECM drivers for Ignition Coils and E-TEC injectors 
Electrical - Diagnoses of a failed ECM
Electrical - 30A Battery Charging Fuse Socket Diagnoses and Relay
Electrical - Relay Coil Wine
Electrical - Relay Testing
Electrical - Battery Charging Relay Diagnostic 
Electrical - Troubleshooting with BRP video 
Electrical - Solder vs Crimp
Electrical - Diagram for Fanners on page 3
Engine Break-In 
Engine Weight 
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Electric Start troubleshooting
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC eRAVE position code recurring
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
E-TEC Voltage Rectifier Regulator troubleshooting
E-TEC Power Fades are not normal and can be fixed
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 Steering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Longevity - 800R E-TEC 
Mikuni o-ring for carb float assembly - Arctic Cat part# 6505-875 or from Amazon and eBay
Muffler Red Hot
Off-trail riding for flatlanders
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pictures - How to post with the correct orientation
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Power Loss - How to diagnose in the field
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Spark Plugs cracked
Squish - The limit
Squish - A discussion on head design
Stator and Relay Diagnostic 
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator Removal on page 3
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#7 Nathan007

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 08:34 AM

Thank you guys! I'll see how to get the primary off to correctly check crank runout when time allows,

 

Will also check motor mounts that i can access in the field since the sled is now gone from my garage. From memory warm idle seems like 1250RPM, when it really vibrates, then with some more speed it runs smoother than my 550F lol

 

Clutch will probably be redone before next season, will buy some speciality tools for those machines and my atv's ..



#8 Martech360

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 07:30 PM

Took my 15 to the dealer for the same issue when it only had 400km on it & still had warranty as all my buddies XM's didn't do it. They pulled my primary & put it on a different sled & it was smooth & the new primary wobbled like me after a case of beer! The result was Crank Runout & they got approval from BRP (surprisingly) to change the Crank. Here's the catch...BRP said that the runout has to exceed the allowable amount of runout which I cant remember what it was but it was high, or I would be on the hook for the labour which was 4 hours at $140 p/hr plus tax to do the test. They then told me that none of the previous complaints were bad enough for approval so I opted out & now have 3000km problem free so far.



#9 Daag44

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 08:06 PM

Took my 15 to the dealer for the same issue when it only had 400km on it & still had warranty as all my buddies XM's didn't do it. They pulled my primary & put it on a different sled & it was smooth & the new primary wobbled like me after a case of beer! The result was Crank Runout & they got approval from BRP (surprisingly) to change the Crank. Here's the catch...BRP said that the runout has to exceed the allowable amount of runout which I cant remember what it was but it was high, or I would be on the hook for the labour which was 4 hours at $140 p/hr plus tax to do the test. They then told me that none of the previous complaints were bad enough for approval so I opted out & now have 3000km problem free so far.

 

Good story! In the last several months or so, someone did mentioned the maximum allowable runout which was surprisingly high and much higher than what is shown in the Shop Manual.

 

I got lucky and managed to Google the thread I was thinking of. The two things that came out of it was 5 thou was still acceptable, one owner had his crank replaced @ 12 thou, and by the end of the 2018 season BRP was changing the maximum allowable runout and 9 thou was refused. I am beginning to wonder if 10 thou has become acceptable under warranty.

 

 

https://www.dootalk....unout-800-etec/


Edited by Daag44, 09 February 2019 - 08:19 PM.

Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R P-TEK Electrical Troubleshooting #1 and #2 
800R Turbo
850 Center Oil line for coolant pump melted
850 Main Oil line caught fire #1 and #2
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's and Ronn's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
Crankshaft runout - maximum allowable specs 
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Electrical - ECM drivers for Ignition Coils and E-TEC injectors 
Electrical - Diagnoses of a failed ECM
Electrical - 30A Battery Charging Fuse Socket Diagnoses and Relay
Electrical - Relay Coil Wine
Electrical - Relay Testing
Electrical - Battery Charging Relay Diagnostic 
Electrical - Troubleshooting with BRP video 
Electrical - Solder vs Crimp
Electrical - Diagram for Fanners on page 3
Engine Break-In 
Engine Weight 
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Electric Start troubleshooting
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC eRAVE position code recurring
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
E-TEC Voltage Rectifier Regulator troubleshooting
E-TEC Power Fades are not normal and can be fixed
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 Steering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Longevity - 800R E-TEC 
Mikuni o-ring for carb float assembly - Arctic Cat part# 6505-875 or from Amazon and eBay
Muffler Red Hot
Off-trail riding for flatlanders
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pictures - How to post with the correct orientation
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Power Loss - How to diagnose in the field
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Spark Plugs cracked
Squish - The limit
Squish - A discussion on head design
Stator and Relay Diagnostic 
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator Removal on page 3
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#10 GoinBoardin

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 09:38 PM

I had a Polaris with 0.011" runout. PTO rod pin was visibly walking out of the crank wheel when I pulled it down. Imminent failure there, though it still ran fine, just put your hands to sleep.

My '13 Doo stayed steady around 0.003" until about 5k miles, when it climbed up to over 0.005" and had noticeable shake. With a reman trued crank and balanced clutch, it was crazy smooth, measured within 0.001"
Just checked last night after about 2k more miles, it's back up around 0.0035" runout, still super smooth though.

Edited to add: when the g4 clutches were first discovered to have that crazy runout built into the fixed sheave, I measured my fixed sheave runout out of curiosity. It was 0.005" near the outer diameter (about 4k miles at the time), same for the 2016 m8000 sitting next to it with 1600 miles. Neither sled has ever grenaded a belt. 0.030" sounds pretty bad..

Edited by GoinBoardin, 12 February 2019 - 03:03 AM.





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