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2010 800r PTO Bearing Buddy (failure modes)

PTEK crank seal bearing buddy 800r compression loss

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#1 grech1kb

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 03:22 PM

So I'm not sure if this has anything to do with my failure, but figured I'd run it by you guys to see what you think. I may be off base saying the bearing buddy failed, but what appears to have happened is the cap that plugs my fill hose came off and the hose puked some isoflex, and appears to have provided air thru the PTO side and leaned out the mixture. 

 

This all occurred last weekend when the weather went from super cold in MI to mid 30's and a decent amount of snow on the ground (adequate cooling to the exchangers) all became very heavy. I was worried about cooking belts because you could feel the sled had to work a lot harder to turn the track. I'd compare it to riding the wheels off a 125 2 stroke at Baja MX (for you Michigan guys) it just felt like something was bound to fail. I was on the pipe (spinning about 8k) breaking trail in about 18" of the wet stuff, when the sled felt like it was running out of gas or a top end was cooking so I let the sled coast to a stop and killed the engine. I've blown up my fair share of 2 strokes to know better than to fight it and keep giving throttle or try to re-start it. Coolant temp was running 4 bars on the cluster consistently all day, never went retard mode or got hot. The motor spins freely, and feels like it has compression when pulling it over. Passed the trailside compression test (finger over plug hole), but just loaded it into the truck and got it home. 

 

Put my gauge and tested compression cold the next day when I got home, and made about 130psi PTO side and 135 PSI MAG side. They're usually dead nuts 150 psi each (on the same gauge). 

 

Do you think the bearing buddy had anything to do with it? Could the fill hose act like a snorkel and pull air into the cases or is there an inner crank seal that would prevent this? There is a yellow "haze" inside the y-pipe that possibly coule be from buring off isoflex? Both plugs came out too white for comfort, but the PTO side was nearly pure white, while the MAG side had some tan color and

 

I have not got into the bottom end, but replaced the top end about 1500 miles ago. Sled has a RK tek/Wossner pistons, head re shape, ECU reflash, v force reeds, and dyno port y-pipe, single pipe, and can. The top end did eat a set of reeds (1 petal each through both cylinders) about 750 miles ago. This left some minor imperfections on the skirts, but the cylinder walls and rings still looked beautiful from what the bore scope could show. Compression remained 150 psi in each before and after the reed failure. 

 

Still in the process of tearing it apart, have yet to inspect the reeds or see what the pistons reveal when I get the cylinder off. Posting a few pics of what I described thus far...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Attached Images

  • ypipe.jpg
  • fill hose.jpg
  • PTO Plug.jpg
  • PTO Comp.jpg
  • MAG Plug.jpg


#2 Daag44

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 04:17 PM

Nice catch on the yellow Isoflex burn in the y-pipe.

 

Plugs look nearly new/white. The heat range also affects plug color, but white ceramic remains white. EGTs are the better bet to ensure both sides are even.

 

As for bearing buddy cap leak causing a failure, I really don't know without any exhaust readings to confirm. There is still an integrated seal on the inner pto bearing. It seems the the Isoflex seeped through the integrated seal, so obviously air will seep by as well. But how much of a leak is necessary to cause a lean failure? Too much guessing imo, which is why I go back to the EGTs. Say for example we added a intake port on the pto side of the crankcase that we could control with a ball valve. Then we could open open the valve and watch the effect on the pto side EGT. I'm not saying to do this, just an example to show we tend to speculate with no exhaust reading.

 

In any case, a leak test is needed for the crankshaft, crankcase, and a whole bunch of other things. I spend a large amount of time in pre-teardown tests. I leak test all engine seals/gaskets and mark each bolt position prior to removal. In some cases I use a torque wrench to remove each bolt, and other times I recheck bolt torque on a percentage of bolts, especially the head and cylinder. I am not worried about a few Nm, but rather something that doesn't add up. The engine failed or loss compression, so I know there is a problem somewhere and likely many problems to find.


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R P-TEK Electrical Troubleshooting #1 and #2 
800R Turbo
850 Center Oil line for coolant pump melted
850 Main Oil line caught fire #1 and #2
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's and Ronn's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
Crankshaft runout - maximum allowable specs 
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Electrical - ECM drivers for Ignition Coils and E-TEC injectors 
Electrical - Diagnoses of a failed ECM
Electrical - 30A Battery Charging Fuse Socket Diagnoses and Relay
Electrical - Relay Coil Wine
Electrical - Relay Testing
Electrical - Battery Charging Relay Diagnostic 
Electrical - Troubleshooting with BRP video 
Electrical - Solder vs Crimp
Electrical - Diagram for Fanners on page 3
Engine Break-In 
Engine Weight 
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Electric Start troubleshooting
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC eRAVE position code recurring
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
E-TEC Voltage Rectifier Regulator troubleshooting
E-TEC Power Fades are not normal and can be fixed
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 Steering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Longevity - 800R E-TEC 
Mikuni o-ring for carb float assembly - Arctic Cat part# 6505-875 or from Amazon and eBay
Muffler Red Hot
Off-trail riding for flatlanders
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pictures - How to post with the correct orientation
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Power Loss - How to diagnose in the field
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Spark Plugs cracked
Squish - The limit
Squish - A discussion on head design
Stator and Relay Diagnostic 
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator Removal on page 3
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#3 grech1kb

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 04:27 PM

Thx Daag. Makes total sense. Would be wise to put a couple probes the y pipe for future!



#4 Daag44

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 04:36 PM

150 to 130 ish is a large drop in compression. The pto having the white'ish plug and lowest reading makes sense. Note the texture on the ground strap. That tells me there was something funny going on in the combustion. Very technical, I know :lol:  As far as I am concerned, that is detonation. Fortunately it didn't accelerate to pre-ignition otherwise it would have melted the forged pistons. It probably would have melted had you not had prior 2S failure experience and kept on the throttle to clean-up a bog. The only thing that cleans is the bank account lol


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R P-TEK Electrical Troubleshooting #1 and #2 
800R Turbo
850 Center Oil line for coolant pump melted
850 Main Oil line caught fire #1 and #2
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's and Ronn's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
Crankshaft runout - maximum allowable specs 
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Electrical - ECM drivers for Ignition Coils and E-TEC injectors 
Electrical - Diagnoses of a failed ECM
Electrical - 30A Battery Charging Fuse Socket Diagnoses and Relay
Electrical - Relay Coil Wine
Electrical - Relay Testing
Electrical - Battery Charging Relay Diagnostic 
Electrical - Troubleshooting with BRP video 
Electrical - Solder vs Crimp
Electrical - Diagram for Fanners on page 3
Engine Break-In 
Engine Weight 
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Electric Start troubleshooting
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC eRAVE position code recurring
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
E-TEC Voltage Rectifier Regulator troubleshooting
E-TEC Power Fades are not normal and can be fixed
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 Steering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Longevity - 800R E-TEC 
Mikuni o-ring for carb float assembly - Arctic Cat part# 6505-875 or from Amazon and eBay
Muffler Red Hot
Off-trail riding for flatlanders
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pictures - How to post with the correct orientation
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Power Loss - How to diagnose in the field
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Spark Plugs cracked
Squish - The limit
Squish - A discussion on head design
Stator and Relay Diagnostic 
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator Removal on page 3
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#5 scott c

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 05:43 PM

Are those the ECS plugs ?
I seem to remember RK Tek recommending not running them. Although that was some time ago.
The exhaust color is interesting. Due we know what isoflex looks like burnt in the exhaust. First thing that comes to mind is sulfur. I think it's still in gas, maybe not ?



#6 grech1kb

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 05:55 PM

The plugs were quite new actually maybe 100 miles on them. They are ECS's but I don't recall Kelsey mentioning anything about not running them. I may need to give him a call lol. 

 

As for gas though, I had just filled up with 93 and this was the first time the sled has seen Ethanol (10% or whatever they have at BP) in a couple years maybe 1,000 miles. I assume it was from the grease burning off but maybe something to do with the fuel too? I have my pipe off nearly every week to get at other stuff and never noticed that color. 



#7 Daag44

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 06:24 PM

100 miles is far more than needed to get color, probably 99 more miles. I can't imagine how an ECS plug could cause a lean running engine. The main two problems that I familiar with different plugs is 1. Misfires, and 2. incorrect heat range. For example if the engine has an extremely lean range, then that range would fare better with a larger gap and a strong ignition to spark the gap. The 800R is the  leanest running carb that I know of.


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R P-TEK Electrical Troubleshooting #1 and #2 
800R Turbo
850 Center Oil line for coolant pump melted
850 Main Oil line caught fire #1 and #2
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's and Ronn's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
Crankshaft runout - maximum allowable specs 
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Electrical - ECM drivers for Ignition Coils and E-TEC injectors 
Electrical - Diagnoses of a failed ECM
Electrical - 30A Battery Charging Fuse Socket Diagnoses and Relay
Electrical - Relay Coil Wine
Electrical - Relay Testing
Electrical - Battery Charging Relay Diagnostic 
Electrical - Troubleshooting with BRP video 
Electrical - Solder vs Crimp
Electrical - Diagram for Fanners on page 3
Engine Break-In 
Engine Weight 
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Electric Start troubleshooting
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC eRAVE position code recurring
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
E-TEC Voltage Rectifier Regulator troubleshooting
E-TEC Power Fades are not normal and can be fixed
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 Steering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Longevity - 800R E-TEC 
Mikuni o-ring for carb float assembly - Arctic Cat part# 6505-875 or from Amazon and eBay
Muffler Red Hot
Off-trail riding for flatlanders
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pictures - How to post with the correct orientation
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Power Loss - How to diagnose in the field
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Spark Plugs cracked
Squish - The limit
Squish - A discussion on head design
Stator and Relay Diagnostic 
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator Removal on page 3
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#8 A1cnc

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 07:28 PM

I am not as experienced as some of you guys but if it was the isoflex burning, that color in the pipe is coming equally from both cylinders so it would have to be burning it in BOTH cylinders. I suspect it was something from the fuel.

 

100 miles on those plugs makes me think it was running lean.


06 600HO SDI Renegade


#9 Daag44

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 08:15 PM

Good point on checking which side the yellow tint appears in. To me it looks like the mag side, but the picture isn't clear enough to really tell.


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R P-TEK Electrical Troubleshooting #1 and #2 
800R Turbo
850 Center Oil line for coolant pump melted
850 Main Oil line caught fire #1 and #2
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's and Ronn's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
Crankshaft runout - maximum allowable specs 
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Electrical - ECM drivers for Ignition Coils and E-TEC injectors 
Electrical - Diagnoses of a failed ECM
Electrical - 30A Battery Charging Fuse Socket Diagnoses and Relay
Electrical - Relay Coil Wine
Electrical - Relay Testing
Electrical - Battery Charging Relay Diagnostic 
Electrical - Troubleshooting with BRP video 
Electrical - Solder vs Crimp
Electrical - Diagram for Fanners on page 3
Engine Break-In 
Engine Weight 
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Electric Start troubleshooting
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC eRAVE position code recurring
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
E-TEC Voltage Rectifier Regulator troubleshooting
E-TEC Power Fades are not normal and can be fixed
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 Steering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Longevity - 800R E-TEC 
Mikuni o-ring for carb float assembly - Arctic Cat part# 6505-875 or from Amazon and eBay
Muffler Red Hot
Off-trail riding for flatlanders
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pictures - How to post with the correct orientation
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Power Loss - How to diagnose in the field
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Seafoam for E-TEC injectors
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Spark Plugs cracked
Squish - The limit
Squish - A discussion on head design
Stator and Relay Diagnostic 
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator Removal on page 3
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix






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