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Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing


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#106 Jeb©

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 10:42 AM

I can change the heat amount on my left foot but changing pin weight. However the coolest position is not the fastest. Yep, really.. I still have heat, nothing like last year's train wreck.
Guess I'm saying the little heat I have now I really don't care about now after 600 miles of abuse. If my belt goes now, it doesn't owe me one red cent after what it's be through.
Been a fun ride to dial in.

I agree, the coolest set up I had last year was not the fastest, a little more slip early to build rpms was faster with a little more heat. My point in this is fixing alignment under load using the GNR method did not lower temps over traditional method that had the QRS shimmed out already. My gut tells me I should take out 1 front pto shim and add it to the rear pto or use none at all for best engine mount life. 

As to yours I think you are right after trying this, no reason to try to get rid of any more heat.


"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." � Thomas Jefferson

#107 yada

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 10:46 AM

My last run just like all the other tests was a wide open run up to 100. Is the target under 75% load too much with the summit shims? Based on other reports of and my own experience of pto mounts failing with firm shims on only front pto mount I do not not know if this is good long term, does anyone know yet. I want to add, I like the tool, I like the concept but I am not sure of a couple of things. 

1. are the under load specs correct?

2. will engine mounts last 2-3000 miles with pto shims stacked on only the front?

Jeb I think your on the right track with this thinking ^^^, I now have all MY 19 mounts pto front, rear ,and mag in my sled and 571 belt and factory panel vent kit . 

First ride was yesterday, (marginal snow , 12") did 15 mins of cat waking pulls hard on and off which before would of heated  clutches past being touchable . Checked clutches , way cooler, could hold my hand on belt, secondary, movable primary np, fixed for 15 secs or so, way better than before. No g n r alignment ethier, that being said ,

my updates from last year (mounts) were shot , fubar, screwed, toast.

 I am having the opinion depending how one rides the motor mounts "could" be a yearly maintenance issue solely based on the 3 position mount style brp uses on the 850. Will the MY 19 mounts hold up? Remains to be seen. 

As we get better snow conditions I will test more as my primary riding style is ditch banging not speed or trails.



#108 Meat Head

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 11:09 AM

I agree, the coolest set up I had last year was not the fastest, a little more slip early to build rpms was faster with a little more heat. My point in this is fixing alignment under load using the GNR method did not lower temps over traditional method that had the QRS shimmed out already. My gut tells me I should take out 1 front pto shim and add it to the rear pto or use none at all for best engine mount life.
As to yours I think you are right after trying this, no reason to try to get rid of any more heat.

Agreed, I used traditional methods as well. However the alignment tool is really cool peice.

#109 Jeb©

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 02:35 PM

Agreed, I used traditional methods as well. However the alignment tool is really cool peice.

It is a very nice piece and I appreciate the effort that went into it. 


"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." � Thomas Jefferson

#110 Grip N Rip

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 01:35 PM

Good question on temps. I am confused, I did the same 5 laps in my test area with slightly lower temps and much better/faster lower drag snow conditions. As you can see under load my sled should have been in terrible shape, my temps were good but I was already shimmed out on 2.2mm on the QRS

attachicon.gifgnrstart.jpg

after Grip n rip under load it looks like a massive improvement,

attachicon.gifthumbnail_20181229_191138gnrfinish.jpg

so running same laps, cooler conditions, alignment under load according to GNR specs much better and zero change in temps, possibly 10 deg hotter on primary fixed, started at 159f but I may have gotten the temp gun on quicker so I hesitate to say it made anything worse but I am positive it did not lower temps. 

The question is why? Are the underload specs putting on too much load? Based on my before tests under load I should have had more heat and seen and improvement? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

 

 

 

 

I really can't explain what you saw on your testing.  I haven't aligned one yet that didn't lower the belt temps.  One thing I've found on the 850's is the stationary sheave on the P drive is always the hot spot.  I've talked to guys that have tested with the wobble clutch and also the 600R clutch back to back and the wobble didn't seem to change how hot the stationary sheave is.  I started testing with a heat gun doing what you did and couldn't get very repeatable results, seemed like how much the sled was ridden before testing had a big influence and like you said how quick you get a reading.  The ambient temp seemed to make a big difference especially on my 19 summit that sucks the air in with the finned secondary clutch.  Not saying your temp testing isn't good, just saying it's tough to get repeatable results but looking at your measurements before and after I'm surprised you didn't see a reduction.  

 

I've been testing the belt temps using the Razorback belt temp gauge and really like that setup.  It looks at the belt top surface and seems to be very accurate.  These sleds are tough to get good repeatable results in short tests I've found, so many variables.  I've started doing longer rides to get everything heat soaked and then doing back to back runs until the belt temp stabilizes to get a good reading.  I have the sensor looking at the belt where it's in the secondary.  Once everything is heat soaked when you stop the belt temp spikes up higher than when you are riding telling me the sheaves are hotter than the belt temp.  It quickly goes back down after a few seconds and then when you take off again quickly drops.

 

These sleds need to have three things all working together to get cooler clutches, good alignment, better airflow and better clutching.

 

Working on a couple more things to get the temps down even more, I think if everyone keeps sharing info and results it's going to come together.  



#111 gulahus

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 06:00 PM

Just got rear pto shim in and it changed a lot in my case. Everything is in specs now. I had 2 front pto and 2 mag shims and still thinking about putting 1/2 shim front pto and reduce one mag shim but decided to go other route. At the end 1 mag mount 1 front pto and 1 rear pto was perfect for me. I have all measurements in mm, I convert them tomorrow to inches and put them here.


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#112 Jeb©

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 07:13 PM

I really can't explain what you saw on your testing.  I haven't aligned one yet that didn't lower the belt temps.  One thing I've found on the 850's is the stationary sheave on the P drive is always the hot spot.  I've talked to guys that have tested with the wobble clutch and also the 600R clutch back to back and the wobble didn't seem to change how hot the stationary sheave is.  I started testing with a heat gun doing what you did and couldn't get very repeatable results, seemed like how much the sled was ridden before testing had a big influence and like you said how quick you get a reading.  The ambient temp seemed to make a big difference especially on my 19 summit that sucks the air in with the finned secondary clutch.  Not saying your temp testing isn't good, just saying it's tough to get repeatable results but looking at your measurements before and after I'm surprised you didn't see a reduction.  

 

I've been testing the belt temps using the Razorback belt temp gauge and really like that setup.  It looks at the belt top surface and seems to be very accurate.  These sleds are tough to get good repeatable results in short tests I've found, so many variables.  I've started doing longer rides to get everything heat soaked and then doing back to back runs until the belt temp stabilizes to get a good reading.  I have the sensor looking at the belt where it's in the secondary.  Once everything is heat soaked when you stop the belt temp spikes up higher than when you are riding telling me the sheaves are hotter than the belt temp.  It quickly goes back down after a few seconds and then when you take off again quickly drops.

 

These sleds need to have three things all working together to get cooler clutches, good alignment, better airflow and better clutching.

 

Working on a couple more things to get the temps down even more, I think if everyone keeps sharing info and results it's going to come together.  

Thanks for looking it over and giving your thoughts, I appreciate and agree sharing info will hopefully help improve things for everyone. All I can figure is prior changes had it as cool as it is going to get? Am I using the most current under load specs?


"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." � Thomas Jefferson

#113 Jeb©

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 07:15 PM

Just got rear pto shim in and it changed a lot in my case. Everything is in specs now. I had 2 front pto and 2 mag shims and still thinking about putting 1/2 shim front pto and reduce one mag shim but decided to go other route. At the end 1 mag mount 1 front pto and 1 rear pto was perfect for me. I have all measurements in mm, I convert them tomorrow to inches and put them here.


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I like the balance you have by doing both PTO.


"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." � Thomas Jefferson

#114 Grip N Rip

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 07:40 PM

Thanks for looking it over and giving your thoughts, I appreciate and agree sharing info will hopefully help improve things for everyone. All I can figure is prior changes had it as cool as it is going to get? Am I using the most current under load specs?

Yes that is the most current form and specs.



#115 Jeb©

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 07:48 PM

Yes that is the most current form and specs.

Any chance if using the new summit shims on both PTO mounts would cause the load spec to be different?


"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." � Thomas Jefferson

#116 skidoodude04

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 07:51 PM

Does anyone have a video on how to do the qrs shim. I’m a rookie at this...got all other alignments done but shimming the clutch I have no idea how!


I’m not sure about a video. I can explain it over the phone pretty easy. Feel free to pm me

#117 Wink1

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 11:54 PM

Does anyone have a video on how to do the qrs shim. I’m a rookie at this...got all other alignments done but shimming the clutch I have no idea how!


Here ya go.

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=jJ_Ju61eoTM

#118 gulahus

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 04:26 AM

Here is what 1/16” Rear PTO shim did to my anlignment.58347ccc18172e54e917242cce3f0b07.jpg


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#119 gulahus

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 04:31 AM

It took some time to get the rear shim there but now I feel it was worth it. I did it without taking the qrs tower off. Just pulled lower air box and reeds and loosen the engine mount bolt. Then I cut the PTO shim to the ”pacman” form like mag side shim and slide it under there.


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#120 Grip N Rip

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 10:37 AM

Any chance if using the new summit shims on both PTO mounts would cause the load spec to be different?

 

I don't think so, I've tested the difference between the 19 shim that gives the o ring support and just a flat shim and didn't see much of a difference in how much it compresses.  If there is any difference it would be very small.






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