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G4 Clutch Alignment and Engine Movement


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#1 Daag44

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 03:03 AM

For those who are interested in Belt Life on a G4, Belt Alignment is the key.
 
 
FAQ
 
G4 Alignment Tool from Grip N Rip
G4 Clutch Alignment Tool Video from Grip N Rip
G4 MAG Motor Mount - How to move forward for better alignment - Video from Grip-N-Rip
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing

2019 G4 850 Product Improvements
2017 to 2019 G4 850 Product Updates FAQ
G4 850 Belt failure - Top portion peel off - not addressed for the 2017s and 2018s
G4 850 Belts - 531 vs 391
Help your dealer and yourself
Shaft Alignment Concept
*Ace-Driver measuring his pDrive Sheave Runout @ 0.025" , Eccentricity @ 0.006" and 0.008" , and QRS Sheave Runout @ 0.015"
 
850 clutch alignment belt thread
Started By Jeb©, Jan 20 2018 10:04 AM
https://www.dootalk....nt-belt-thread/


Further down in the thread there is a quote from Dominic Tessier - Director of Ski-Doo Engineering - that you may find interesting. Click here.


Edited by Daag44, 18 December 2019 - 01:36 AM.


#2 stmike

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 07:38 AM

I called my dealer about the extreme heat in clutch area ,can not touch the clutches to dam hot .He talked about the changes coming ,and said the new engine mounts will likely create more vibs in the bars and boards. Mine sled at around 6500 rpm will already put my feet to sleep . 

He is going to get me on the list for the new changes .



#3 revegade84

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 12:33 PM

At 6500 rpm are you sure it's the engine? I had a vibration near that rpm as well and it was the track being too loose. Tighten'd her up and the vibes are gone.



#4 TeamBaitpileRacer

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 12:49 PM

Anybody know if they are updating the 17s & 18s, or just the 19s?



#5 Daag44

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 08:35 PM

Anybody know if they are updating the 17s & 18s, or just the 19s?

 

They are updating the 19s. If you have trouble with your G4 Summit 850 then BRP is asking to go to your dealer and open a case file.

 

 

https://www.youtube....HYKyG4k#t=2m18s



#6 Daag44

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 08:19 AM

From Dave Norona on Snow & Mud
 
http://www.snowandmu...tml#post2482256
 
Posted February 28th, 2018, 02:04 PM
 
"The cvt cover works, remember the cvt cover is not causing the problem, the problem is the motor mount in some cases is allowing movement, this is causing the stress on the belt, which causes excessive heat and the belt to fail. The fins on the primary and now the secondary for 2019 won’t help grenade belts, that is why updates for free did not include those and probably won’t for the new updates. Updates will be to fix the problems, once problems are fixed you won’t have the heat etc. My personal belief is they have to get this perfect this time round and their goal is to make it that way, so some of the updates are to over do it to eliminate anything and everything possible. An example would be the cvt cover clip, it is not causing the belt to fail but they are moving it to eliminate any possiblity as well as some high points in the clutch area. This included making big the hole bigger to bring in more air and the find to move it around again to just make it better, same with a redesigned front grill and prefilter to bring in more air for that circulation. I hope that 2019 is a year all these issues get laid to rest and guys can just enjoy riding, there will always be guys complaining for sure as this is a passionate sport, all I can say is the everyone at brp is working towards making the sled as perfect as possible. Cheers dave"
 

 
Dave Norona also has a video on YouTube for the Ski-Doo Belt Life Update on the 2019 Summit and Freeride
 
 

 

Hey guys, Ski-Doo Backcountry Expert here, Dave Norona. We are in New Orleans and we just got talking with Dominique Tessier from Engineering. I'm just passing along information. It's always a hard question, not because we don't want to answer it for you. They are always working towards better belt life and have that longevity we had with the XM.

What we have been seeing from 17 to 18 is we pretty much solved a lot of the issues with heat, almost 80%. We still have some  issues, but the issues are small in conjunction to how many sleds, but that does not mean we don't care about people that are having issues.  We have found that there is more engine movement under load and under certain conditions. So that's why we see such a random problem. It doesn't mean that really hard riders it happens to, and really weak riders it doesn't, that's false.

What we are going over is what they are going to do for 2019. The first thing they are going to do is improve motor mounts, especially under load and this is what they think is going to reduce or eliminate any engine movement and that's what creates heat and problems for the belt.

You will see online a lot people have talked about the belt hitting things. It can do that but it is not actually the belt problem. Even the way you think the belt is coming apart is not from hitting something. However they are going to reduce the areas that the belt will possibly hit.

We saw that in 2018 is we went to a wider hole on the CVT cover right here, and we are now going to move to 2019 parts. That hole is going to be bigger, a little redesign here. There is some snow intrusion as well on some machines. There are going to eliminate that using a better grill kit and also some rubber to seal off some areas. This is going to bring in more air as well as now they are going to be using the fan technology on the Secondary. It's all to bring temperature lower. It is a work in progress.

For those who have 17s ans 18s, the biggest question is what are they going to do for you. If you are having any sort of issue with your machine, always take it to your dealer. Get a case file, because there are things that are in motion and there are going to work on. If you have no issues keep riding and have a great time which the a majority of users out there.

That's it right now from New Orleans. As you can see we had the specialist talk about it on Facebook today, and those will be ongoing messages as we move forward.

 


Edited by Daag44, 04 May 2018 - 12:17 PM.


#7 Daag44

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 08:21 AM

From Dominic Tessier - Director of Ski-Doo Engineering
 

https://www.facebook...77704605599051/

@ 15:08 ( -12:00 min)


"So as Steve just said [Steve Cowing - Ski-Doo Media Relations and PR Manager], we saw great improvements in 2018 based on improvements made between 2017 and 2018, but still we saw some belt failures in some specific riding conditions. In for 2019 we will see some improvements. So 3 main topics will be addressed. So the first thing we want to minimize the engine movement in order to reduce the Belt Tension, and what is the main root cause of belt failures observed over this winter.

The second main topic will be airflow. The airflow is key in that matter. So here we can see two parts that we bring to production next year in order to increase airflow in the belt area. So this new Driven pulley with wings has been developed to act as a pump. Together with this new CVT cover with a bigger whole. So here the airflow will be sucked into the CVT area in order to reduce belt temperature. So Engine Movement and Airflow to reduce belt temperature will be key for model year 19.

One last thing that we will improve is the belt contact. We got a lot of feedback from specific riding conditions that belt can contact with components around the belt area. So one main thing we will change the front support for the cover guard in order to avoid having contact between that part and the belt itself and avoid damage to the top cogs of the belt.

So with those 3 improvements in model year 2019 we will achieve the target and reach the expected belt life in the market."


1. Minimize the engine movement to reduce Belt Tension. This is the main root cause of belt failures.

2. Increase Airflow with a finned Secondary and larger air intake for the clutch cover.

3. Eliminate Belt contact components around the belt area such as the Front Support for the Clutch Cover Guard.



#8 Gin la pine

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 08:23 AM

Anybody know if they are updating the 17s & 18s, or just the 19s?

 

Well i got an 18 and i got updated pto mount and monday i should get updated driven (maybe the finned one ?) including a different cam and new rollers ....If you got any abnormal problem do as Daag said call the dealer open a case file....if they dont wanna work with you change dealer even brp will tell you to do so...



#9 Daag44

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 08:35 AM

From Christopher on SnoWest
 

https://www.snowest....ad.php?t=441059

 

Posted February 28th, 2018
 
So many UNUSED spare belts on my Gen 4 850s

So there I was.
Ready to head up to Canada for a 10 day SnoWest adventure.

3 days of Riding in Pemberton and 3 more days of riding in Revelstoke.

Have read over and over again how "everyone" is blowing through belts on their 850s. So I thought on this occassion I would be extra careful as I didn't want anything to effect my big trip. So I bought SIX spare belts to take up north with me just on the chance that maybe it really was the snow, the elevation, the mountain angle, the Loooooong pulls, SOMETHING that was wildly different up there than down here in Idaho that was causing people to blow through belts.

6 Days of long hard riding.
4 850s in our group, (1 turbo)

And guess what.

I came home with SIX SPARE UNUSED BELTS.


I am yet to change out a single OEM belt on any of my 4 850s!
Not one stinking belt has yet to go out on me in two seasons of riding.

Honestly I don't get it.
I know there are guys who are OBLITERATING belts every single weekend. But I honestly think they are the exception and NOT the rule.

As for me.
I am SnowChecking a 2019 Summit X 165 w/SHOT in Lava Red for next year. I absolutely LOVE these 850s!

 

 

 

 

From TJ427 on SnoWest

 

https://www.snowest....24&postcount=12

 

Posted May 31st, 2018

 

We own two 850s (175 and 165). The 165 is a 2017 and blew one belt while the 175 is a 2018 and still has the stock belt. We had at least 8 or more days where one hour in we commented this is once in a lifetime snow conditions with untouched chest deep powder. 5 separate days I had to start riding other peoples sleds by 1:30 PM to avoid running the gas tank empty on the 175. Still on stock belt. Most of the various riding partners are on 'Doo 850s and we helped change 7 or 8 belts on 3 different turbo Axys sleds but nothing on the 850s (one had Impulse turbo at 8 lbs boost). Maybe we were just fortunate and those we rode with were also fortunate but they are great sleds and we will keep buying them. The snow conditions were outstanding this year and in 38 days riding out West we did not have a single day without thigh deep untouched powder or better. The belt and clutches generated plenty of heat this season. The negative internet stories get hyped while the happy 99% gets downplayed.


Edited by Daag44, 31 May 2018 - 12:38 PM.


#10 Daag44

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 08:51 AM

Taking the X&Y measurements from the pDrive

 

Someone posted on CIMIQ, one of Quebec's snowmobile forums, that in the December issuer of the snowmobile magazine Motoneige-Québec (2017 volume 43 page 14 & 15) it shows the pDrive need to be positioned correctly before taking the X&Y measurements. Once I get a copy I will provide the info.

 

 

http://www.motoneige...l=1#post1924530


Edited by Daag44, 04 May 2018 - 12:19 PM.


#11 jdrmx

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 09:35 AM

Whats confusing to me about all this is how can one machine get good belt life, then another, identicle machine shred belts? Same motor mounts, same everything, same style riding. Ive been trying to figure this out since the 17’s were released. I dont run a gen 4 but i’d sure like to


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Think snow :rolleyes_old:

https://www.jmpowderboards.com/


2014 Summit X TMS 872
 


#12 Daag44

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 10:24 AM

Razorback Belt Temp Gauge
 
With an infrared temp gun I see belt temps shoot into the 200s on various sleds even the 600s. It's nothing new but quite annoying having to open the side cover and it's not in real time. The first Razorback Belt Temp Gauge was installed on a Ski-Doo MXZ 670 and ironically it hasn't been popular with sleds but rather with ATVs and UTVs.
 
Considering that sleds lose a crazy amount of Hp from the engine to the track, around 50% or more, that means a lot of heat is being generated on components including the belt. Those are good reasons why we often hear that adjusting clutching for riding conditions and rider weight offers the best performance gain for the dollar.
 
 
 
Razorback Belt Temp Gauge - 3.0 Edition
from 299.00

Meet our new 3.0 Edition Infrared Belt Temp Gauge. This gauge features an all aluminum and steel design, with a much smaller cup than our previous gauges. We're using new cabling with this gauge that allows both the sensor and the gauge to easily detach. Our 3.0 Edition Gauge allows for real-time monitoring of belt temperature - displaying current, average, and high temperatures on a LCD screen with LED alerts. 
Covered by U.S. Patent No. 9,618,394.


Features

  • Fits 2 1/16" Gauge Clusters/Pods
  • Machined From Solid Aluminum Stock
  • Anti-Glare LCD Screen
  • Multi-Color LED Temperature Alerts
  • Current, Average, and High Temperature Tracking
  • Waterproof Sensor
  • Waterproof Connections
  • Quick-Release Sensor Wiring Harness
  • Backed By 1 Year Warranty

Anodized Colored Bezels are now available!
 


In the following video note the level of difficult to even reach the clutches of a UTV. With sleds we are blessed with easy to access clutches. Adjustments can be made trailside with clicker settings and adding weight to the ramps. It's one of the advantages of owning a sled. The advantage of monitoring Belt Temperature like we do with Engine Temperature, is knowing when to give the Belt a rest without consulting riding buddies who just want to ride their own sleds. People typically don't care if one takes one more or less run up a incline and would rather avoid seeing their buddies having to change their blown belts. It's a lot more fun that way.
 

 


Edited by Daag44, 04 March 2018 - 04:24 PM.


#13 Daag44

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 10:53 AM

Whats confusing to me about all this is how can one machine get good belt life, then another, identical machine shred belts? Same motor mounts, same everything, same style riding. Ive been trying to figure this out since the 17’s were released. I don't run a gen 4 but i’d sure like to


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As Owners, Performance Shops, BRP Dealer Techs and BRP Technical Support have found, it is a combination of Engine Movement, Clutch Alignment, Clutching Adjustment, Venting and I assume water infiltration would fit in there. BRP has pin pointed the #1 issue to be with excess Engine Movement.
 
For the venting I am referring mostly to a blocked Belt Heat exhaust port at the left footwell, but the subject extends to the normal things we commonly speak about and reaches to forced venting like the Blow Hole.
 
Jeb began a thread on the subject of Clutch Alignment which he also spoke of Engine Movement, but little input was seen from owners. The idea behind this thread was to point the off-trail owners with belt troubles to Jeb's thread where they could begin to help each other. Having only one G4 850 owner on the planet showing his concerns with measuring X&Y and showing pictures of a tool on public forums is a concern. In the used or out of warranty segment, the work done is too far apart with the new sleds. There is still one to two months of riding left for those in the Northern part of the Snowbelt, so it's not too late.


Edited by Daag44, 14 March 2018 - 02:54 AM.


#14 Daag44

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 01:24 PM

Overheating Belts in the right conditions with certain riding styles
 
 
I found a video made by H2O Motorsports that speaks of how they address Belt Temp (click here). The first part is engine and clutch alignment. It relates to shimming the PTO and MAG side mounts to achieve proper alignment. For example if the Z - distance between both clutches - or Y-X (skew) needs to be adjusted, then shims are used on the engine mounts to tip the engine to reach the best alignment. The second part is Clutch Calibration. This means adjusting the Primary and Secondary for proper Belt Grip which is the same on any sled with a CVT. The third part is Convection Air Flow. Again this is the same thing on any sled with a CVT.  For some other pretty cool venting on a G4 click here.




H2O Motorsports Develops Drive Belt Solution For the 2017/18 Skidoo G4 Summit
https://www.facebook...12502219088012/

Ski-Doo introduced the Summit G4 in 2017. We had technology of new drive clutch, new engine, new track, at lot of really good things. The problem with the 2017s and 2018s is we do have in the right conditions with certain riding styles, overheating clutches and overheating belts, and blowing belts. The downside to that is that clutches are so hot that it takes a half hour to 40 min to let things cool off enough so that you can change the belt. It's very expensive. It potentially is hard on the engine depending on the condition the belt blows. So we just don't want to have that problem, nor do we want to have to stop, let our sled cool down, let our clutches cool down when we are right in the middle of some awesome riding conditions.

To solve the belt issue with the 2017/2018 Summit G4 there is really 3 parts to it. The first part is the engine alignment and clutch alignment. The second part is the calibration of the clutches themselves. The third part is getting some airflow moving under the cab to reduce underhood temperatures which reduces temperatures of everything and the sled performance becomes more consistent.

To correct the alignment issue that we have, we will run a straight edge through the driven clutch and through the drive clutch. The reason we do this is we measure the fixed half of the driven clutch to the fixed half of the drive clutch. We have to measure the drive clutch at this position and this position. So you can see this half of the belly pan is removed to open things up to easily take those measurements.

What we are going to do to shim is we are going to move the driven clutch if we have to move it out. We have a shim setup that allows us to shim here and in the chaincase, move the driven clutch away from the drive clutch if that's what we need to do. We also have shimming available for the far side of the engine, the mag side of the motor where we can now tip the motor a little bit this way if we need to do that.

The next part of the solution is to come-up with a calibration for the driven clutch and drive clutch that reduces heat. To get calibration correct in the driven clutch and drive clutch we have to use a little bit of math, we have to use a little bit of science, but in the end what we really have to do is ride it and see how it performs in he conditions we are riding in. Good clutching comes from testing of many different helix, secondary springs, primary ramps, the weight in the drive clutch, because the combination has to work together.

Eventually when we are done with the math and science we will ride it and then we come up with the correct calibration of the two clutches. That's what we have here.


The first part of our convection air flow is having a low cool air intake to the clutches. Also if the sled is moving we can have air flow through these vents. These vents are made by SLP and this particular material is water proof, water resistant, so we can place that right in front of the clutches with no worries of water or snow getting onto the clutches.

The next part is modifying the clutch cover so that we can get air moving, and so that the hot air can get out of it as opposed to stacking at the top of it. So the very first thing we do is, we cut-out this Ski-Doo Do Not Remove piece right here. So we cut that out so we don't have to look at it anymore. We also now have air able to come through these, escape through here. We have added these few holes to the top of the belt guard as well so that the hot air can come through the bottom and then through the clutches and then cool.

The next part is we have to let the hot air out of the top of the sled. So we have added a couple of more vents here and also added these holes in the top of this panel here. There is lots of air flow under there. It's wide open. So we now have the cold air coming in from the bottom, and the hot air able to rise out the top so it will cool stationary when it's parked, or it will cool when it's operating and you have a little ground speed.

That's our solution to the belt issue. If you have a problem we certainly can help. Or if you simply want to improve the performance of your sled with some good clutching calibration we can do that as well. Give us a call, hit us on our email. Thank you.


Edited by Daag44, 04 May 2018 - 12:22 PM.


#15 BIG JOHN

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 04:14 PM

the 850 needs a solid LF motor mount shim and the old skool XP QRS shim kit just for starters...

toss the worthless bl/bl QRS spring and replace with ANYTHING stiffer...

for HI only, 150/350 pdrive spring with 965 weights (any stock 967 weight should be replaced)...

plus venting, REAL venting...

 

 

sorry finned clutches without a way to rid engine compartment of HOT AIR is pointless... 

 

lose the wobble, add a counter balance weight to inner fixed sheave (clutch is keyed anyway) to smooth out the motor...

 

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