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850 Vs 1200 Dyno Chart


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#106 ncapster

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 08:11 AM

I always thought the 800 felt like a 600 until 7500 RPM's.  With full shift it was over at 8000 RPM's, I never liked the engine.  The 1200 out pulled it everywhere except on the top.  I have 1000's of miles on both.  A slip of the throttle in sport mode in the wrong conditions could be fearful on the 1200, never so on the 800.
 
I am hopeful the 850 is as strong on the bottom and life will be good  :smile_old:


It's weird, seat of the pants I could swear my old smart carb P-Tek 800R was stronger than my 800 E-Tec even though I know the #s don't back it up.


#107 Daag44

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 04:31 PM

It's weird, seat of the pants I could swear my old smart carb P-Tek 800R was stronger than my 800 E-Tec even though I know the #s don't back it up.

 
The 800R and 800RE are not that far apart. They are both Type 797 engines and not two 800Rs were running the same so I wouldn't be surprised. Also the only real difference is Carb vs Injection. As we saw with the 850RE the use of Throttle Body Injection and ERAVE opening sooner and more precise shows a much stronger Power Band then the previous tech. I really wish we had the numbers down to 5000 rpm.
 
It begs the question how much better the engines with only SDI or only ETEC injectors would fair with the same tech found on the 850RE, and this is what I have driving at. The +50Hp appears to be only part of the equation. As we saw with simple mods on the 1200, a few changes can make a radical difference in the whole Power Band. Imagine how much stronger the 600 and 1000 could be!
 
This is also the reason why I was showing a particular curve for the 1000 SDI that doesn't exist, but has real honest potential. You might have noticed the last few graphs showed it was Combined map which deserves an explanation. These are in fact real Hp number of the same stock 2005 MachZ with 4000 miles on it. The Power Band was measured with three different elevation maps that Jimmy Cooper loaded with BUDS. A fresh ECM Calibration load on a well working 1000 SDI will also show the maximum Hp. You can imagine how many 1000 SDI out there that would not show the same power of the various Calibrations not to mention the myriad of other problems.
 
With the use of Air/Fuel Gauges we can see in real time the reasons why not two 1000 SDI run the same. Some are running way to rich up top to make the intended Peak Power. The variance is very real and can also be seen with a remarkable difference in Clutch Tip Weight to reach the same RPM that can easily range from 16g to 20g. There are very good reasons why so many shops were pulling their hair and threw in the towel with 1000 SDI. When running right it is one of the best sleds ever made, until the 850RE. And again, imagine how much better it could be!
 
The better Calibrations and tighter tolerances in the later years of the 600 HOE and 800RE, especially from 2015 and up show a much tighter variance between sleds. How they are broken in and what oil they used, and the fuel chosen for the Dyno test also makes a difference in the results from sled to sled. What I like about Dynotech is Jim measures the Octane, RVP and Ethanol content.
 
From the graph below you can see the sections of each Elevation Map used on the 1000 SDI to draw a Combined Power Band. The curves for the 850 and 800 that I used this time were from the Amsnow Shootouts, which were all new sleds still in Break-in mode, but with good dyno runs to seat the rings. Since each graph have a proper explanation with Markups, this time I thought that I could show both Rpm and Hp :)
 
 
2-TEC 1000 SDI Combined Map v1 Markup.jpg


Edited by Daag44, 22 April 2017 - 04:40 PM.

Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#108 djm

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 10:31 AM

Someone asked for the 600 ETEC curves. Below are two graphs for the 600 HOE. The second one has only 3 curves to better show the changes BRP has made from year to year. The curves have all been radically smoothed out to better see the changes. Otherwise all we see is a bunch of gibberish.
 
I wish that we had the numbers following a Dyno Break-in and the Break-in Mode turned off, but unfortunately this is all we have for the 600 HOE. It is actually pretty good because it compares brand new Box Stock sleds for the yearly Amsnow Shootouts. The Fuel RVP and Octane are also tested which is in itself very sophisticated.
 
A couple of other things that will make a significant difference is the Fuel and Oil used. Ethanol anyone?
 
 
 
attachicon.gif2-TEC 600 ETEC v1 Markup.jpg
 
 
attachicon.gif2-TEC 600 ETEC v2 Markup.jpg

 

 

Daag, are these all calibration changes to your knowledge or were there some hardware changes that went along with them?  

 

Also, was it competition that drove them to the 2016 improvement or do you believe their powertrain calibrators became a lot more knowledgeable over the years?  

 

I must confess, I had an 09 600 etec and gave up on it as they totally sucked in the performance department at about 115 horsepower.  That coupled with the clutching aimed at smoothness, fuel mileage and durability made them a pretty poor package for anyone interested in 600 cc performance.  What an improvement having 122 horsepower and the resulting torque in crease would have made.   Those sleds could have been so much more enjoyable.  

 

Can guys have the 2009/2015 sleds ECU's updated with the 2016 calibration or is there more to it than that?  






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