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Fuel Tank Grommet Leaking


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#16 Blk04Snake

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 09:08 PM

Please don't call the manufacturer to report the problem???

 

 

Something tells me that there isn't anyone there on Saturday night to answer the call. 



#17 4ws f 7

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 09:57 PM

Not saying this happened to you but a few years back bought a rev that was leaking at the fuel line grommet at the bottom of the fuel tank, replaced it again started leaking on the next ride. Ended up I tore the the new one installing it, really had to lube it up when installing it. Again not saying this is your issue, just a thought.



#18 hitekbalancer

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Posted 13 November 2016 - 09:59 AM

Not saying this happened to you but a few years back bought a rev that was leaking at the fuel line grommet at the bottom of the fuel tank, replaced it again started leaking on the next ride. Ended up I tore the the new one installing it, really had to lube it up when installing it. Again not saying this is your issue, just a thought.

 

The can be a beeachhh to put in. You need to put the grommet in and push the sending unit in after. I use silicone grease. you can but it at home depot where faucet washers are sold.


Edited by hitekbalancer, 14 November 2016 - 07:48 AM.


#19 smokingdoo

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 02:59 PM

Let's add to this, shall we. 2010 Tundra, purchased new in 2011. Fired it up to take out of storage and get ready for the season. I didn't notice the fuel smell until I got it on the trailer.

 

Got it home and noticed fuel smell and fuel soaked trailer deck. I had no idea this (grommet) problem existed, so I asked my dealer if they've heard anything before I started to remove parts. They suggested that the air vent check valve at the top of the tank went bad and acted like a reverse syphon, spewing gas out of the vent hose into my tub. I was skeptical since I saw fuel not only coming out of the belly pan, but also underneath the tank.

 

I ended up stopping by another Dealer and talked directly to a maintenance tech. He nailed it on the head. Told me he's seen the sending unit grommet rotted out quite a bit (Team CC in Eagle River). They've reported it to BRP numerous times in hopes it would end up as a Bulletin. BRC claimed it happens from using too much Iso Heet in the fuel tank. I said that's BS (and so did the tech) because the grommet used for the fuel line that goes to the carbs is perfectly fine.....and I don't use that much Heet anyway. Old and new pic attached.

 

Anyway, it's a cheap ($13) and easy INITIAL fix.....make sure you use a non-toxic silicone grease, evaporative grease or Vaseline to push grommet in place. Use the same grease to push the sending unit into grommet after the grommet is set in place.

 

Long term damage will be the deterioration noted on my track from the leaking fuel. Other than the fire danger, the damage to the track would make sense for a manufacturer service bulletin. Not happy with BRP at the moment.

 

Old-New Grommet.jpg

 

Good thing I wasn't 65 miles up river.



#20 Mike-337

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 03:59 PM

Use some 'lovers lube'. lmao!
The older i get, the faster i was.

#21 Daag44

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 05:01 AM

Let's add to this, shall we. 2010 Tundra, purchased new in 2011. Fired it up to take out of storage and get ready for the season. I didn't notice the fuel smell until I got it on the trailer.

Got it home and noticed fuel smell and fuel soaked trailer deck. I had no idea this (grommet) problem existed, so I asked my dealer if they've heard anything before I started to remove parts. They suggested that the air vent check valve at the top of the tank went bad and acted like a reverse syphon, spewing gas out of the vent hose into my tub. I was skeptical since I saw fuel not only coming out of the belly pan, but also underneath the tank.

I ended up stopping by another Dealer and talked directly to a maintenance tech. He nailed it on the head. Told me he's seen the sending unit grommet rotted out quite a bit (Team CC in Eagle River). They've reported it to BRP numerous times in hopes it would end up as a Bulletin. BRC claimed it happens from using too much Iso Heet in the fuel tank. I said that's BS (and so did the tech) because the grommet used for the fuel line that goes to the carbs is perfectly fine.....and I don't use that much Heet anyway. Old and new pic attached.

Anyway, it's a cheap ($13) and easy INITIAL fix.....make sure you use a non-toxic silicone grease, evaporative grease or Vaseline to push grommet in place. Use the same grease to push the sending unit into grommet after the grommet is set in place.

Long term damage will be the deterioration noted on my track from the leaking fuel. Other than the fire danger, the damage to the track would make sense for a manufacturer service bulletin. Not happy with BRP at the moment.



Good thing I wasn't 65 miles up river.

 
Smokingdoo, thanks for the report that BRP is aware of the issue.
 
* After fast forwarding through the different accounts with some that use non Ethanol gas for storage and without any fuel stabilizer, then it leads me to believe other possibilities. Gasoline has many additives with possible compatibility issues. I remember reading the EPA approves somewhere around 50 new additives each year that are added into the gasoline before it reaches the pumps.
 
Ever since this thread started I have seen a couple of warnings on DooTalk for two different off the shelf fuel stabilizers that turned the gasoline to gel. So perhaps BRP were too quick to identify a single source.
 
I believe that we are too quick to blame Ethanol since it is in most gasoline, and some with non Ethanol also had the grommet deteriorate. A quick search landed on Fluorocarbon Rubber (FKM) and it is not compatible with Esters. With another quick search of Esters in gasoline I found two research papers for different types of oxygenated additives - other than Ethanol which is an Alcohol - that would fall under Esters, such as ethyl acetate and methyl acetate. The first paper dates from 2013 and the latest from 2018. Are we seeing an early adoption of such additives? I believe the use of Esters would be more plausible than Alcohol.

 

If it is the Ethanol/Alcohol from the fuel, then it can be phase separated for a test with the grommet.
 
Whatever the chemical reason is, hopefully BRP has changed the fuel sender grommet from a Fluorocarbon rubber to a more resistant polymer.
 
For the test results of the FTIR scan, go to page 3 or click here.

 

For a reference to an earlier discussion in September of 2016 with a Rubber Chemical Resistance Chart, click here.

 
 
Grommet for fuel sender turned to jello - from smokingdoo.jpg


Edited by Daag44, 16 August 2020 - 01:41 AM.

Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#22 zxmodv

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 09:14 AM

Load of crap. Iso heet is isopropyl alcohol. BRP should be taken to task. Contact the Ontario Fire Marshall if your in Ontario. They investigate fires where death, serious injuries or more than half a million damage is involved. Perhaps they would look into fires that originated in garages with snowmobiles in them in the recent past.

#23 smokingdoo

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 12:56 PM

Ya....definitely not agreeing with the Iso-Heet being the contributor.

I'd be interested in knowing what the reoccurring data is after an initial grommet change?? Has the grommet
material been changed from the original material from 4-5 years ago?

Is this something we need to keep an eye on continuously?....could be very serious consequences if there is
reoccurrence!

#24 mxz601

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 04:45 PM

If someone wants to PM me and send me a new and used grommet I will do an FTIR scan and get to the bottom of what they are using.  I have been in the rubber industry for over 25 years and have seals in all areas of vehicles, airplanes and patriot missiles. Let me know.....



#25 Daag44

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 09:47 PM

If someone wants to PM me and send me a new and used grommet I will do an FTIR scan and get to the bottom of what they are using.  I have been in the rubber industry for over 25 years and have seals in all areas of vehicles, airplanes and patriot missiles. Let me know.....

 

Now we are talking. Thanks for taking the initiative.


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#26 Daag44

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 05:36 PM

Ya....definitely not agreeing with the Iso-Heet being the contributor.

I'd be interested in knowing what the reoccurring data is after an initial grommet change?? Has the grommet
material been changed from the original material from 4-5 years ago?

Is this something we need to keep an eye on continuously?....could be very serious consequences if there is
reoccurrence!

 

Can you send your old one to MXZ601 to get tested? There is still an unaffected portion that can be used to test with.


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#27 smokingdoo

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 01:04 PM

Yep, I'll PM him in a few minutes.....to work out the details.

#28 mxz601

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 03:28 PM

Got the PM.  When I get it I will do the FTIR scan and post the results.  Stay tuned......



#29 Daag44

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 12:15 AM

Yep, I'll PM him in a few minutes.....to work out the details.

 

 

Got the PM.  When I get it I will do the FTIR scan and post the results.  Stay tuned......

 

Now this is what I call DooTalk working on all 4 cylinders!!! Thank you for taking the time to doing this :Santa


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#30 smokingdoo

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 02:35 PM

Going out US Postal Service in today's mail.

BTW....got mine all put back together. No leaks so far.




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