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Dyno graph: 850 E-Tec Vs 800 E-Tec


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#31 krm

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 02:52 PM

goodwins got a 850 with 30 miles on it .best track hp he's seeing with clutching upgrades is 82 hp. the best hp hes seen on a full broke in 800 is 80 track hp .there will be an update thru buds but it's not out yet .7950 rpm max before break in .the torque is more flat on the 850 vers the 800 .this will make it a real fun trail sled . :wink_old:

more testing going on ,up to 84 track hp now .track rolls real nice/free.but,i'm thinking production ones will have the hydro formed axle/cogs .waiting for the buds update stk chain is 110 ,27/45 gears on an x . :wink_old:



#32 zxmodv

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 02:54 PM

8 tooth drivers?

#33 krm

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 03:41 PM

8 tooth drivers?

yes :wink_old:



#34 techhead

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 03:57 PM

Anyone have a rod length measurement they can post?

140 MM

#35 stealth bomber

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 03:59 PM

Looks like someone made that chart in excel by inputting values.. Didn't even take the time to change each plot's name from "SeriesX"

 

My thoughts exactly.  No way two motors so different have power curves so similar IMO. 



#36 Daag44

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 06:47 PM

My thoughts exactly.  No way two motors so different have power curves so similar IMO.


I would give the OP the benefit of the doubt. My guess is he put much thought into this topic before posting such a graph. This forum has very high visibility, so I doubt he took numbers from the 850 and subtracted 10HP as is being suggested. I'm surprised no one checked the numbers to determine where they were taken from. It takes less time to check then to make an opinion :)

 

 

Edi: I might be partly responsible from my post #24. I apologize if I mislead anyone. Ncapster's dyno curves are accurate. It is the graph that is stretched horizontally to the point of tricking the eye.


Edited by Daag44, 12 May 2016 - 09:31 PM.

Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#37 Daag44

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 10:51 PM

I'm not sure how much easier it will be to distinguish the curve, because they are similar however different. It is still relatively the same tech being used. The additional set of throttle body injectors doesn't necessarily change the way BRP tunes their sleds. For examples the exhaust valves can open at the same rpm for the different stages, which is typically unique to each sled manufacturer. Another problem with trying to compare Hp curves is we only have the Hp numbers for the 850 from 6900 and up. We are missing 900 rpm to compare with what we have for the 2013 800 ETEC.
 
My earlier comment on this being a numbers game was referring to which 800 ETEC would we use for the comparison, a pre production or production 800 ETEC? This would make a large difference. Also the post breakin production curves we have from the same dyno facility are limited to 2012 and 2013. This leaves us without 2011, 2014, 2015 and 2016. This is important since the highest production Hp curves are not available for comparison. For example the 2011 pre breakin has a higher peak Hp than both the 2012 and 2013 post breakin curves. We could make a comparison between pre and post breakin on the 2012 and 2013 to then estimate the post breakin for the others, but that would be guess work. To make matters more complicated it would show there is short of a 10Hp difference between the 800 and 850, hence the can of worms that was opened in Ski Doo 850 ETec vs 800R ETec HP claims

 

 

 

Pre Production 2016.5 850 ETEC  vs  Production 800 ETEC 2013 Post Breakin

 

Dyno 850 ETEC Pre Production vs 2013 800 ETEC Post Breakin final.jpg


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#38 Daag44

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Posted 13 May 2016 - 02:01 AM

I took a shot at guessing the Hp from a 2015 800 ETEC since we only have the numbers for a test run with +2 deg timing and nothing for stock timing.

I tried using the difference between pre and post breakin on a 2013, then added it to the 2015 Pre Breakin, but it didn't add up so I canned that idea. The two dyno sheets were from different sleds and on different days, so I suspect the Hp was off from one to the other.

Then I found two dyno sheets done on the same sled on the same day with the only difference of 4 degree timing. So I got creative and halved the difference at each RPM and used those numbers to subtract from a 2015 ETEC Post Breakin curve with +2 deg timing in the hope that it would negate the +2 deg timing and show a more realistic stock timing curve. The same was done with the 2016 curve. I'm not sure if that made sense, so I'll give one example.

 

2013 ETEC @ 7900 rpm with +4 deg timing provided +6.4 Hp on one particular sled.

Take half of 6.4 Hp = 3.2 Hp when increasing timing by +2 (just a guess).

 

Subtract  3.2 Hp from a 2015 ETEC @ 7900 rpm that was tested with +2 deg timing to hopefully get close the Hp with stock timing. The pre production curve for the 800 ETEC gives some clues to see if this simple calculation is in the ball park.

 

 

Please remember there is data manipulation to put this graph together, and with the variance between sleds there is a degree of error to be expected. (Edit: Since I first posted the graph I did find a mistake in the 2015 estimate at the top of the curve. The revised graph looks more realistic, and the 2016 estimate has been added.

 

The aim is only to show the complexity of a 10 Hp increase between the 800 and 850 ETEC, and not knowing which curve to compare with. It does appear that the 850 has a clear 10+ Hp increase from the 800 @ 7900+ rpm, and an even larger increase when compared to an 800 from 2012 to 2013.

 

 

 

Dyno 850 ETEC Pre Production vs 800 ETEC Post Breakin Final.jpg


Edited by Daag44, 13 May 2016 - 12:14 PM.

Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#39 brownmecha

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Posted 13 May 2016 - 09:52 AM

more testing going on ,up to 84 track hp now .track rolls real nice/free.but,i'm thinking production ones will have the hydro formed axle/cogs .waiting for the buds update stk chain is 110 ,27/45 gears on an x . :wink_old:

is Goodwin clutch tuning for BRP, or his own kit?

#40 krm

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  • Sled:,19 900t 20,850xrs 21 850x21900t x

Posted 13 May 2016 - 11:30 AM

is Goodwin clutch tuning for BRP, or his own kit?

his own.with shared info . :wink_old:



#41 krm

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Posted 16 June 2016 - 06:01 PM

buds 2 map for the g4 due mid july .pre production ones were fat oil and gas .,production ones will be weapons .start doing your push ups !! :worthy:



#42 taylorj

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Posted 16 June 2016 - 06:07 PM

I sure hope your right. How can they be testing now with now snow? Dyno? 



#43 OY2.0

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Posted 16 June 2016 - 06:33 PM

Chile taylorj has tons of snow in the mountainsLOL



#44 Mach189

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Posted 16 June 2016 - 09:00 PM

I sure hope your right. How can they be testing now with now snow? Dyno?


Still snow in the Canadian Rockies. Actually they snow storm warning yesterday i believe. Revelstoke?


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#45 OY2.0

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Posted 18 June 2016 - 01:11 PM

I have seen artic cats run sleds in the summer with a radiator an fan on the back of the sled and rubber tires instead of skis. I seen it on TV I did






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