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#76 Daag44

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Posted 20 May 2016 - 08:59 PM

This is beginning to sound like an epidemic of crank failures on the 800 ETECs. In the last few years that I've been browsing the XP/XS forum I don't remember this. What did I miss?


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#77 Daag44

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Posted 20 May 2016 - 11:56 PM

Even Roamer7 avoided the 800suntil two years ago when he realized there was a significant drop in 800 ETEC failures. This was mostly due to the ring failures that were addressed in the earlier years. There is no need yellow or green or red coloured glassed to notice all 3 800s from Ski-Doo, Arctic Cat and Polaris are all good engines. They all need attention when the fuelling goes south for whatever reason like a partly clogged filter or injector, or a problem with engine management. The 850 won't magically make this possibility go away.

 

Fuel controllers and Air Fuel Gauges are here to stay and welcomed by the manufacturers who see their products find performance improvements in the aftermarket. This can be as simple as performance clutching to an elaborate turbo kit. I like to keep my sleds stock, so I use the AFG to set benchmarks, find fuelling problems and perform pre/mid season maintenance. No one needs to install either one for the engine to survive unless there is a problem that cannot be found or fixed otherwise, but the choice is there.

 

The 850 will hopefully be the one to take it further. My guess is the plasma coating and stronger ring lands will allow them to survive leaner conditions and longer periods of mild detonation while the ECM make its adjustments.

 

 

Can a E-TEC 800 last 10,000 miles?
 

I've always steered clear of 800s because I like to keep my sleds a long time and prefer to rebuild as little as possible. Of late though I've been hearing less about E-TEC 800 engine failures and this combined with Doo's new warranty program has me interested in the big 8 again. Nowadays I ride about 3000 miles per season and like a gas and go sled for at least 3 seasons. 600s are up to this, but is the 800? Anyone run an 800 E-Tec to 10000 miles with no engine failures? I don't run the snot out of sleds anymore but an 800 with me would see a lot of 80mph cruising and some off trail WOT. I don't want to enter year 3 thinking I'm riding a ticking time bomb warranty or not...

 

How long can a well maintained 800 etec be expected to last?


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#78 brock17

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Posted 21 May 2016 - 09:18 AM

No one needs to install an afr wide band O2 and gauge with a fuel controller. But, if you want your engine to last longer and improve on the factory map, it's going to help.

The plasma coating is definitely more costly but will probably help with the high combustion heat of the di two stroke.(higher heat then sdi or carbs)

#79 Daag44

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Posted 21 May 2016 - 10:51 AM

Wow!!!

Those afr readings are dangerously high. Anything above 13-14.7 is dangerously hi.
Epa has 14.7 afr as a goal on two strokes. That won't make a two stroke last long .
Get the afr in the 12.8 and it's golden.

There is no way an engine can last with the afr readings you posted.
How many e tec 800's have you tested ??

The afr readings like that, and the di technology of no lubrication to critical engine parts spells disaster.

All these new sleds need a fuel controller and an afr gauge to make it more durable and last longer .

Interesting post.

 

 

What is not being mentioned with those high AF readings is the stratified mode on the ETEC. The AF being recorded by our Air Fuel Gauges are the ones from the exhaust gases which fails to consider two important values. The first is the air with little to no fuel being short circuiting out the exhaust. In stratified mode there are also areas in the combustion chamber that are running rich while other areas are running lean.

If you are looking at what the EPA has for a goal on two strokes then it would work best to get the lamba from CO and CO/CO2 values. Below is an emissions plot that shows the relationship between emissions and Lamba. The center grey line is the stoichiometric point of 1, or 14.7 for indolene (regular non ethanol gasoline). Note the CO values show a large and linear drop until it reaches the stoichiometric point. To get values beyond stoichiometric, CO/CO2 values would be needed, but unfortunately this is top secret stuff.

So what does all this mean to us owners? First, there is no need to get overly concerned with high AF values measured in the exhaust even if they go beyond stoich, because it doesn't represent the actual combustion event. The location of the sensor will also affect the AF readings. A combination of AF and EGT would serve best to find problem areas. Excluding the exhaust valves which can also play funny tricks like AF, seat dyno is a tell tale sign of an overly lean condition. For example if the AF is showing 16 @ 6000 but the sled is a rocket and can pull clutching, then it works. If the AF shows 20 and there is a lack of response/power, then it is running too lean. If during prolonged cruising at any speed the exhaust gases keep building heat in the center pipe and muffler until the metal turns cherry red, then there is a problem that needs to be addressed. I wouldn't call a muffler temp of 800C+ normal, so if the engines keeps reaching excessive temps during normal riding where the computer is constantly fighting to lower temps, then there is likely a problem that needs attention.  Like I said this is excluding a possible problem with the exhaust valve operation.

There is no way to cheat the actual combustion event, but there are ways to use the air/fuel mixture more efficiently to increase power and lower emissions. It may mean a small sacrifice in power for a large decrease in emissions, but this reduction in power is relative and would not be felt. For example the 800 ETEC is stronger than the carb version, so it is not a loss from what was had, but rather a gain in power with DI. Hope that makes sense.
 

 

Lamba Emissions Plot.jpg


Edited by Daag44, 21 May 2016 - 02:30 PM.

Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#80 zxmodv

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Posted 21 May 2016 - 01:37 PM

Etec ownership? You actually do all this stuff? No thanks.

#81 Daag44

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Posted 21 May 2016 - 02:41 PM

Etec ownership? You actually do all this stuff? No thanks.


I can't help if your getting a negative reviews from your 800 Summit friends, or making assumptions. Frankly this is the first time I see you go out of your way to dismiss Ski-Doo tech when normally you defend it. Perhaps it is time for summer toys that bring out the short skirts :)


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#82 stealth bomber

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Posted 21 May 2016 - 04:30 PM

Cat scratch fever?

#83 Daag44

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 02:21 PM

I should add that I don't openly support the use of fuel controllers to extend the life of stock 800 ETECs, at least not unless one understands how to counter the effects. I was merely pointing that there were options available for performance improvements. Fuel controllers appears to be a hot item for the ETEC and possibly a welcomed addition to problem sleds, but it comes at a price. I will only name one, a higher fuel to oil ratio (lean on oil). There are still two connecting rod bearings, a cylinder, piston and ring to lube. The same holds true for the 850 ETEC. Even if the lower rod bearing is fed straight oil from the outer bearings, it is still open to fuel injected in the intake stream. When the boost injectors kick in, what is the change in fuel/oil ratio? Both Arctic Cat and Ski-Doo know this answer as they have designed their 800 and 850 to work with throttle body injection.
 
Zxmodv deleted his last post, but it was a good one that pointed out why must one do all these changes to help their 800 ETEC survive. I don't believe anyone needs do anything other than add fuel, oil, plug the DESS key and enjoy the ride. If my stance ever changes, then there will be explicit explanation leaving no room for doubt.
 
Maintenance and identifying when the engine runs too hot on stock engines remains my personal focus. Here is an example. I meet a two stroke tech and bring to his attention an engine that runs too lean and looses power once the engine runs too hot. The tech answers the air/fuel ratio is set at the factory and cannot be changed. I respond this is a new machine and looses power after 5 min of runtime due to running too lean. The tech answers the air/fuel ratio simply cannot be changed. I respond this is simply unacceptable.  Eventually I find a way to richen the mixture that it was designed to run, and keep the same fuel/oil ratio. It was designed to run those ratios, so I only made sure that engine did. It has been running strong ever since.
 
My point is, there is always a way to identify and correct a problem, always. For the 2014 to 2016 800 ETEC that are still under warranty, any problem can be solved by the dealer and manufacturer. The same will hold true for the 850 ETEC. But this cannot be done in all instances without the owner's input. This is true since the dealer techs cannot ride an hour on every customer sled and in the exact same conditions. Inherently the owners input remain the most important part in diagnostic.
 
In response to Zxmodv's deleted post, I am not trying to redesign fuel maps, but rather ensure the engines run the way they are intended to. Please keep this in mind when reviewing my previous posts in this topic. Hope this helps clarify the ambiguities of my posts.
 
The most important thing that I have learned from DooTalk was to focus on those who have crossed the 16,000 km (10,000 miles) threshold on their 800s, while paying close attention to those who don't. This is how I work the maintenance and I see no difference with carb sleds.


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#84 brownmecha

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 08:46 PM

If the new 850 proves to be reliable as claimed, using less oil and the same fuel, will you still be blaming the lack of both on 800 etec failures? If you blow a belt on a 800 etec, do you trust the crank? Can an 800 etec run in less than optimal snow conditions without running hot? If these two issues were properly addressed and the engines still didn't consistently last over 5k miles, than play with fuel and oil. If it was simply a click of the mouse to make the engines more reliable, BRP would of done it by now!

#85 Daag44

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Posted 23 May 2016 - 03:35 AM

Considering a failure rate without having the full details of what led to the failures can send us on a wild goose chase. Best example is the 2013 BCX 800 from Chief Gotta Go. It made it 9300km (5800 miles) before it did a lean seize. The cause was an electrical problem, and it had two symptoms since new or out of breakin. It would cut-out when cruising in the 70-80 mph range, and at 75 mph cruising it would not accelerate to 76 or 77 or 78....until enough throttle was given that it would take off like a rocket. Was it running lean all along and seized when the stator gave up?

How many 800 ETECs were and are still out there running with such problems while the owners believe this is normal? I believe we must first answer this question, because the rings will have a shorter lifespan if they are run hotter than they were intended.

Here is the link to Chief's story:
http://www.dootalk.c...2#entry16283009
 


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#86 Daag44

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Posted 23 May 2016 - 11:56 AM

Yours did not blow at WOT but your motors have seen many miles on the last 1/4 of throttle.
They are not seizing or squeaking a piston where you might limp home...they CATASTROPHICALLY fail.
This is not due to a lean condition IMO.

 
A7M266D's 2015 XRS was a performer, especially at high rpm. Good point on relation between high load times and midrange burn-downs. A7M266D answered all our questions some time back when we were discussing his 2015 XRS and and his fathers 2015 Irondog. He hoped that it would help debunk the mysteries while he moved back to 4 strokes to better fit his riding style, so I added the link to my signature. I also added a direct link that shows his past sleds including a 2005 MachZ with good success which most survived the first season. Perhaps the 1000 two stroke was better suited for him? :)  Note his 2006 MachZ was a dog and probably didn't last as long. Perhaps another lean running experience like Early Rider had back in the 2006 with his Renegade 1000 SDI while having reached 10,000 miles on his 2005 MachZ. Was it coincidence, or a pattern? The history of the 800 ETEC has been a great help to answer that question. History has a funny way of repeating itself.

If the sled is run under high load often and at or near sea level, it could be as simple as needing a piston/ring inspection and/or replacement at regular intervals. I added a link for that too under Recommended overhaul / refresh interval. The mountain folks have found this with their type of riding on all two strokes, but I think there are many variables involved such as higher compression, load vs engine bay cooling, modded air intakes, dropping the use of air pressure sensors, performance pipes, blown belts and whatever else we can think of.
 
On August 15, 2013, Ski-Doo published the warranty bulletin 2012-22 that showed a relation in between piston ring land wear and engine load at low altitude below 4000 ft, and advanced mileage 3,125 miles (5000 km). The construction of the piston was corrected for longer durability, but the direct relation was made. Could A7M266D's sleds have suffered the same fate under extended high load condition? It's no surprise that the 850 was given a cast iron insert to strengthen the ring groove and ring land.
 
If piston seizures on the 800 ETEC is a problem for certain high load running sleds, perhaps added piston clearance could prove helpful. The tolerance of new piston clearance on a 800 ETEC goes very high @ max 0.0064" compared to other 800s like the 2015 Arctic Cat 800 with a max clearance of 0.0053" . That's an additional thou in clearance! It will interesting to see what clearance was given to the 850 ETEC.

 

Always good to get your insights. They help turn the hamster wheel :)

 

 

850 ETEC 13.jpg

 

850 ETEC 14.jpg


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
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Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
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Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#87 Buckeyesledder68

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Posted 23 May 2016 - 08:33 PM

Read 300 pages of Cat 2 stroke threads and you'll be hard pressed to find a stock 800 engine failure, or a 4 stroke one for that matter. Nor the 600 ctec. I'm a Doo guy, but the failure rate on Brp 2 strokes is astronomical compared to Cat.And I have and will continue to have Brp 2 strokes, but you should toss those rose coloured glasses and get a pair of " beer goggles" instead. Better view.

Passed one dead doo (engine) last year. Waaaay more cats, and there weren't near as many on the trail=higher failed rate. Nothing scientific, just reflecting on how many time I was glad I bought a doo.


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#88 Millennium Technologies

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Posted 24 May 2016 - 01:18 PM

thinksno is correct if a plasma cylinder has a failure or goes to a big bore it would go back to a Nickel Silicon Carbide coating. There are a lot of different views or thoughts on this new material, until we see more of what this new product does in real world uses we will just have to see how or what it does. In the mean time we will keep plating them the way we have for years. Exciting new things to come. 



#89 krm

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Posted 24 May 2016 - 02:32 PM

ford has a nice video on it for their gt350r mustang and other performance motors . :wink_old:



#90 brock17

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Posted 24 May 2016 - 04:11 PM

ford has a nice video on it for their gt350r mustang and other performance motors . :wink_old:

I think Ford may have a patent on plasma coatings??
I'm not sure though?




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