Ski-Doo Snowmobiles Forum banner

Plasma coated cylinders.

21K views 95 replies 26 participants last post by  Dynamo^Joe 
#1 ·
http://jalopnik.com/5467038/the-ford-engine-technology-good-enough-for-the-nissan-gt-r

Very cool stuff. The oil retaining property of the material will be excellent for an oil sipping 2 stroke like the 850. Everyone is loving on the bottom end of the 850 but the improvements to the top end are equally impressive. Especially for throttle jockeys and mountain guys. Sustained WOT should be no problem for this baby :biggrin_old: .
 
#2 ·
We are looking forward to seeing how much less oil the 850 will take compared to my 800. Riding 2 800s this year we were pretty equal in gas and oil consumption. I was a little better as I'm a lighter rider, but very close after my break in. I'm curious to see if the 850 will perform as much better as they say it will!
 
#3 ·
thanks for the link. did a quick search on the plasma process but this was a good article. so if the coating is .6mm thick does that mean we can now hone the cylinder with a conventional rigid cylinder hone? should be able to go .020 oversize and still have .35mm of plasma sprayed liner.
 
#4 ·
I really think there are big benefits to this coating but I hear it is expensive to do. It will give the BB builders some headaches I bet.
 
#6 ·
The BB kits would likely go back to nic coating. The plasma coating may last a burn down (fuel/ spark?) issue but that means jack if the ports crack.

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk
Because the plasma coating transfers heat better than nikasil the incidence of cracking will likely be less of a problem (perhaps non-existent as this monoblock is completely redesigned).

The big plating shops (Like CV tech) will adopt this technology pretty quickly. My guess is in a season or two you'll be able to get a big bore using this technology.
 
#9 ·
"Sadly, there is one downside - all of this wonderful technology will put an end to boring out an engine block for bigger displacement, at least on a grassroots scale. Still, we we think the benefits are worth the sacrifice." quote from last paragraph of the article.

Good article but I wonder why they can't be bored out since they grind them to size after the coating is sprayed on already, you would think they could grind off the coating completely, overbore the cylinder and then re-spray it on again afterwards? Not that I have any plans to do this just curious as to why they say it can't be done? Maybe they just meant not just anyone in their backyard can do it?
 
#10 ·
I think they are comparing it to iron block or iron lined automotive engines that any old machine shop with a boring bar could rebuild oversize. Those guys aren't going to be able to touch these. They do say the process is actually cheaper than iron liners on mass production scale when all costs are considered. And like anything else, the cost will go down once it becomes more mainstream.

Roamer, I was joking with the AC comment, lol.
 
#11 ·
That's why Cat's #1 in sales. Oh right... #3 and in bed with the #4 builder in a mutually desperate bid for both to stay in the snowmobile business. A force in the industry to be sure :wink_old: .
Read 300 pages of Cat 2 stroke threads and you'll be hard pressed to find a stock 800 engine failure, or a 4 stroke one for that matter. Nor the 600 ctec. I'm a Doo guy, but the failure rate on Brp 2 strokes is astronomical compared to Cat.And I have and will continue to have Brp 2 strokes, but you should toss those rose coloured glasses and get a pair of " beer goggles" instead. Better view.
 
#12 · (Edited by Moderator)
Read 300 pages of Cat 2 stroke threads and you'll be hard pressed to find a stock 800 engine failure, or a 4 stroke one for that matter. Nor the 600 ctec. I'm a Doo guy, but the failure rate on Brp 2 strokes is astronomical compared to Cat.And I have and will continue to have Brp 2 strokes, but you should toss those rose coloured glasses and get a pair of " beer goggles" instead. Better view.
I've had zero engine failures in thousands of miles on my Rotax 2 strokes. The view from here is just fine :dry_old: .

ps. Cats are more than just engines. The powerplants are solid. the rest of the sleds aren't so much.

As the #1 sled site for the #1 brand Dootalk is a gathering place for owners, haters, and posers alike. Real failures are reported over the many silent owners who have no issues, along with crap from people parroting what they've read online, and the posers who don't even own Ski-Doos. It makes small issues appear much larger than what they actually are. Doo isn't #1 because they are pretty... they're #1 because they ARE SUPERIOR SNOWMOBILES.
 
#14 · (Edited by Moderator)
And the last Cat you owned was?
Check out my sig. See any Cat's there? I would own a Poo (a 600 CFI) if I were for some unknown reason unable to buy a Doo. I can't see myself ever owning a Cat. Aside from wanting a pig heavy turbo 4 stroke, what do they have to offer?
 
#15 ·
Check out my sig. See any Cat's there? I would own a Poo (a 600 CFI) if I were for some unknown reason unable to buy a Doo. I can't see myself ever owning a Cat. Aside from wanting a pig heavy turbo 4 stroke, what do they have to offer?
I asked that because there isn't any Cats in your sig, but you seem to know a lot about them. I guess you know about how lousy they are from the Internet then. Solid engines? Yes, that's what I was talking about, and that's just about it as far as sleds go. The fit and finish on the chassis means zero when there is a hole in the side of the engine or a piston welded to the cylinder.And no one will buy it if it doesnt make power. None of the makers chassis are without some issues,including Doo.Ever ride one those heavy pigs?Or a Cat 2 stroke? Or did you just read about them? I considered buying an etec at one time, but the cost of an electronic or engine failure kind of scared me away. Glad youve had good luck with them, and the 850 looks like 2 stroke of the future for sure. And I was just joking about the glasses. Just funnin you,eh.
 
#16 ·
The reason Cat engines live is because they're old school. If you don't meet emissions it's pretty easy to make a 2 stroker live. Wad the gas and oil to it and life is good.

The 800 is living on the credits the 4 stroke gathered up, not on its own merit.

I will say the Ctech has been a great engine by all accounts - and it should be. They took the best of 10 year old Doo tech and worked with it. The "new" Ctech makes the same HP the old SDI did when Doo retired it.

Serious question; when was the last time Cat had an original idea? They've made a living on copying everyone else's ideas and buying stuff from other manufacturers. And sadly they've even done a fairly poor job even doing that.
 
#17 ·
The reason Cat engines live is because they're old school. If you don't meet emissions it's pretty easy to make a 2 stroker live. Wad the gas and oil to it and life is good.

The 800 is living on the credits the 4 stroke gathered up, not on its own merit.

I will say the Ctech has been a great engine by all accounts - and it should be. They took the best of 10 year old Doo tech and worked with it. The "new" Ctech makes the same HP the old SDI did when Doo retired it.

Serious question; when was the last time Cat had an original idea? They've made a living on copying everyone else's ideas and buying stuff from other manufacturers. And sadly they've even done a fairly poor job even doing that.
the KITTY CAT was their idea . :wink_old:
 
#22 ·
I wasn't talking about emissions, I was talking about engine life. Fuel and oil is part of it, for sure. The fuel requirements at full boil would be similar, as the displacement and power output requires a certain amount of fuel. Oil? Much the same to make it live. More accurate fuel metering with the etec system for sure. The Suzuki 800 has a 5.7 mm shorter stroke, and a beefier bottom end. The lower piston speed means lighter reciprocating parts,and less shock loads on bearings and crank pins. That being said, if someone actually tells me they thought about polluting less when they bought there're sled, they'll be a good candidate for a career in comedy. And a guy getting an estimate for $3000 to fix his sled with 5k on is highly unlikely to care about the emissions. That was an EPA thing, not a request by consumers. Not saying they aren't great sleds with the best tech, but they aren't the most reliable engine, the Suzuki is. Cats recent ideas? Steel bushings in the suspension parts, anvil strong 2 and 4 stroke engines, the best front end in the business, a 180hp 02 feedback engine in a light chassis, roller secondary's, excellent controls and bars, simple, light, reliable primary clutches, an American made 600 with zero failures in a chassis that's the lightest combination of a liquid cooled sled on the market. Not as many as BRP, but just as fun to ride I think. And you don't have to buy a kit to lube your crank bearings. Now don't flame me for saying this, I'm a Doo guy, but I don't wear rose coloured glasses. Just read the Doo 4 stroke forum. There's a lot of guys on there that got let down by Doo 800's, and they say it.There's lots of great sleds out there. Oh, and the Cat beside my Rev 800 in the garage? $300 and next winter it will have a quiet 220 hp with knock control on pump gas. Can't afford an 850 this year, I'll have to live with these two. Woo. Light the torches!
 
#23 ·
I like to chime in here.

I have owned many models of all four over the years and I currently owned a few 800 and 1200 Ski doo and own two right now.

I would have to honestly say that the Doo does not make there motors to last.

As previously stated I would have to agree that the motors are only good for about 5K because I have owned a few now and that is pretty much the number unless of course you ride it like a little baby and keep it stock then you probably will get some more life out of it but what fun is that.

All the Cat's I owned with all kinds of mods to them to make more power, are way more robust and can handle 10K easily with the mods.

I sure hope this 850 is going to be a much better motor and from what I can see it may be, so all you Cat haters I would suggest to bit your tongue because unfortunately they are right.
 
#24 · (Edited by Moderator)
I wasn't talking about emissions, I was talking about engine life. Fuel and oil is part of it, for sure. The fuel requirements at full boil would be similar, as the displacement and power output requires a certain amount of fuel. Oil? Much the same to make it live. More accurate fuel metering with the etec system for sure. The Suzuki 800 has a 5.7 mm shorter stroke, and a beefier bottom end. The lower piston speed means lighter reciprocating parts,and less shock loads on bearings and crank pins. That being said, if someone actually tells me they thought about polluting less when they bought there're sled, they'll be a good candidate for a career in comedy. And a guy getting an estimate for $3000 to fix his sled with 5k on is highly unlikely to care about the emissions. That was an EPA thing, not a request by consumers. Not saying they aren't great sleds with the best tech, but they aren't the most reliable engine, the Suzuki is. Cats recent ideas? Steel bushings in the suspension parts, anvil strong 2 and 4 stroke engines, the best front end in the business, a 180hp 02 feedback engine in a light chassis, roller secondary's, excellent controls and bars, simple, light, reliable primary clutches, an American made 600 with zero failures in a chassis that's the lightest combination of a liquid cooled sled on the market. Not as many as BRP, but just as fun to ride I think. And you don't have to buy a kit to lube your crank bearings. Now don't flame me for saying this, I'm a Doo guy, but I don't wear rose coloured glasses. Just read the Doo 4 stroke forum. There's a lot of guys on there that got let down by Doo 800's, and they say it.There's lots of great sleds out there. Oh, and the Cat beside my Rev 800 in the garage? $300 and next winter it will have a quiet 220 hp with knock control on pump gas. Can't afford an 850 this year, I'll have to live with these two. Woo. Light the torches!
It's amazing that Arctic Cat is #3 with such absolutely incredible, bulletproof, game changing sleds. Their marketing department just must be slow in getting the word out. When people learn how absolutely infreakin' credible the new cats are and that they've had absolutely zero failures at all (for the 600 at least... not sure how you know this, but I'm sure it's 100% realistic), then Doo will finally be knocked off of their totally undeserved perch; and Arctic Cat will take it's rightful place as #1 in the snowmobile world...

I'm serious... I really am. Doo should be very afraid of the truth getting out.... BTW climate change is a conspiracy, aliens are real, and humans have never stepped foot on the moon... Thanks for the heads up, I'm sure I'll be riding green soon...

:Cheers
 
#26 ·
Really? Where did you get all that out of what I said? I give credit where credit is due, that's all. They may not be number one, but it doesn't mean they're sleds are junk, nor Polaris, and that they don't have some good ideas. That had nothing to do with number of sales or who was number one. Hundreds of threads about engine failures over the last 6 or 7 years says the Doo 800 might not be the most reliable one, that's all I was saying. The Suzuki 800 is. Don't let it ruin your day. And the total emissions from North American snowmobiles isn't squat in the big picture, you know that. It wouldn't make a bit of difference if they're hadn't been any emissions regs brought in.I didn't say having a more reliable engine would knock doo off the number one spot in sales either. I'm probably like most guys, I couldn't care less who's number one in sales, I only care about how much fun and seat time I can get with what's in my wallet. Try the beer goggles man, you seem uptight.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top