32 replies to this topic

[Daag44]

Zxmodv, the following links will give you a better idea of what I was referring to. Monitoring the center pipe is something I first learned from the few MachZ guys that knew how to tune their sleds. Then I noticed Dynotech were doing the same thing with a write-up on it, then I found it on Gus Bohne's MachZ, the Arctic Cat stock 800, the Ski-Doo Summits and Backcountry, then I found LRD's post which led to pipe builders. That is the reason why some months ago I couldn't understand why monitoring center pipe was not useful. I've only monitored AF but heck few even believe this is possible and still choose to adjust a fuel controller using EGTs. How on earth can the EGT tell you if you're nearing lean or rich misfires??? First you make a baseline without a fuel controller, then the fuel controller is installed to make adjustments. The lower the numbers the higher the fuel flow. I just don't get why we are over a decade behind the Arctic Cat owners. But knowing how much you like two strokes I figure I'd bring it up.

 

The graph was provided by BRP to dealers some years ago to help educate the effects of aftermarket mufflers. I have read the complete article from BRP and copied it somewhere, but somehow misplaced it   . Krm could probably get us a copy. It was worth the read.

 

http://www.dootalk.c...t-450lbs/page-8

http://www.dootalk.c.../#entry10951553

http://www.omega.com...st/DPG3500.html
 

 

 

Digital Pressure Gauge from Omega - NEMA 4X Case with Min and Max readings

 

 

 

 

 

800R Muffler comparison for the REV

 

[zxmodv]

My 770 has an egt in the centre pipe,daag. I'm putting fittings on the other pipes I have  to use on it and the 800r. The wave action and the fact that the exhaust gas from a firing stroke not exiting the pipe in one pulse make reading 02 in the exhaust stream inconsistent, unlike a 4 stroke. That's why I don't use it.And to me, egt's are an indication of a process, not a tuning device.IMO. I rarely look at the egt's when I'm riding, in fact I avoid looking anywhere except far ahead. If it blows, so what. If I make a mistake because I didn't read the terrain for 200ft and go into the forest,well, the egt's don't matter. It has a high memory, and I get it tuned before I even turn it on.TT670 advised me on  that.I like getting it set up, then just riding it.And I use only the stock muffler and ear plugs.I couldn't care less about cans. How 20 years ago.

[Daag44]

Ironically it was a post from TT670 that led me to choose a gauge with a 3 hour data recorder. Not sure what you meant with inconsistent AF readings? Maybe you don't have the wideband positioned correctly?

[zxmodv]

Spending money on an a/f gauge for a 2 stroke is akin to spending $300 on a can, or $450 on reeds. It just doesn't fit my world. Plug readings and wash are it for me.

[Daag44]

You might change your mind with an ETEC.

[Darrens66]

Good reading guys thanks for info. I'm letting the shop that's machining my head do the squish .


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[Darrens66]

If u don't mind me asking who are u gunna use to machine the domes? I'm also in the same boat and bought an slp head that has wrong elevation domes in it than what I was told when I bought it.

I use a local guy here in Michigan to do any machine work I've ever needed doc fang engineering in clarkston mi .


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[zxmodv]

You might change your mind with an ETEC.

Not likely. When and if I own an etec it will remain bone stock. There is thousands of them out there with happy riders at the pinnacle of 2 stroke technology that just ride, no tuning required. As close to 4 stroke gas and go as you can get. Why would you want to alter the sophisticated DI system? I agree with that saying " It doesn't have to be difficult to be good".

[Daag44]

Not likely. When and if I own an etec it will remain bone stock. There is thousands of them out there with happy riders at the pinnacle of 2 stroke technology that just ride, no tuning required. As close to 4 stroke gas and go as you can get. Why would you want to alter the sophisticated DI system? I agree with that saying " It doesn't have to be difficult to be good".

 

I am quite surprised on the bold. Say you bought a new 2015 ETEC 600, never checked the plugs as you say, then it burned down due to a lean failure. Would you say it doesn't matter I have a warranty? What happened to all that sophisticated technology that you spoke about? If you would like to argue that it has a knock sensor, I will save you time and respond that it used to protect itself against low octane and not extended lean conditions. The muffler temperature sensor is what is used to protect against a lean condition, but that's still playing with fire, literally. 800C (1,472F) is when the ECM detects the muffler is overheating. This is pretty much standard across two stroke sleds. Before it reaches this temp the ECM will go into a fuel enrichment mode. The ETEC has the advantage of adding oil to match the increase in fuel, which is great. But riding these conditions for extended periods is not good and won't help the life of the engine. There is also the oil ratio equation. Your new sled will be setup from factory to run the appropriate amount of XPS Synthetic oil, but it is still your responsibility to monitor oil usage. What if your sled delivers 10 percent less oil and 10 percent less fuel for whatever reason, and runs with 10 percent higher muffler temps? Will you waste your time blaming Ski-Doo while waiting for a new shortblock? Your best engine is your factory engine with brand new parts and this is worth paying attention to. This is one reason why I am a proponent to getting the fancy gauges that read the muffler temps. If you decide to plug a fancy accessory, you also want to monitor voltage. It doesn't need to be complicated.

 

Now if you want to pull the Ski-Doo engineering card on me, I will be happy to pull the Ski-Doo engineering history and there are many. In 2003 the 800 SDI was as you say, at the pinnacle of 2 stroke technology. What do think happened to those engines? In stock form they failed and Ski-Doo stopped making them shortly after. Ironically those engines are the most sought out engines for their cylinders in Ski-Doo history. Most don't even know of their value or how well those engines performed, an even less why they failed.

 

What I'm trying to say is that if there are any signs of trouble with heat, wether it be coolant, or muffler temps, or troubles with oil consumption, or troubles with fuel consumption, or trouble with the electrical, a blind fold with the words pinnacle of 2 stroke technology broidered onto it won't change a darn thing for reliability. Most people call it.......luck of the draw. Well you and I both know that luck doesn't play into it as much as it is advertised.

 

Here are some of things we can do with newer sleds. When we are riding with out buddies we can compare fuel and oil consumption, coolant muffler and clutch temps, and voltage. Folks do it all the time with fuel and coolant temps, so it's not a stretch to do this with the other variables and follow with appropriate action. If a problem is found with say fuel or oil, then we have the choice to switch sleds to eliminate the variable of rider style - read throttle control. Then if a problem is confirmed the sled can be monitored against a benchmark. It can and should also be brought to the dealer, but we play an important role, especially if the problem doesn't get resolved quickly. Read the multiple power fade topics for a refresher. That is where a forum like DooTalk comes into play. We don't need to pack our sleds full of gauges to go riding stock sleds, but we do need to be conscious of the needs of our two strokes which haven't changed a bit with the ETEC. DooTalk is an extension to Ski-Doo engineering, one that if used wisely makes a HUGE difference. Believe me, Ski-Doo does pay attention to the chatter.

Edited by Daag44, 21 October 2015 - 02:58 AM.

[zxmodv]

Wow. I think your way over analyzing it Daag. All the tuning has been done before it leaves the factory. Leave the gauges off and just ride. Like I said, there is 1000's out on them. And the etec is the pinnacle of 2 stroke development.Not an '04 sdi 800. They hardly made any, and the few that want those cylinders have difficulty finding them. That doesn't make them the most sought after. Nor does an sdi 770 make any more power than a carbed version. They just cost more. And if you think Doo engineers are paying any attention to what you or anyone else is saying on here regarding exhaust temperatures or lean injectors, you should seek counselling dude.

[npickle12]

Agreed! Daag, if you think that etec consumers owe it to BRP to go out and buy EGT, pyro, wideband O2, and water temp gauges just to carry out field testing for BRP you are crazy!

Don't get me wrong, I love gauges. I have an EGT and water temp gauge on my sled and love to watch how they are affected by riding style, temp, conditions...etc.

But these new etecs do not need that. They are tuned from the factory to operate over a wide range of conditions for idiot consumers that put cheap gas in them and hold it to the bar all day. They are not living on the edge.

Also...you just don't hear about lean burn downs on etecs that are caused by tuning issues. I would say that all etec failures are due to air leaks, injector failures or bearing failures. Not fueling...

Sure there may be a handful of dootalkers that would like to have that level of data. But most do not. And I assure you that BRP would not use your data to make engineering decisions. It's just too uncontrolled for modern engineering and system performance modeling. They may follow trends on the forums to look for reliability issues so THEY can conduct further testing. But they aren't going to use Joe Shmoe's egt and wideband data to make changes to their fueling.

Sorry man...you are just a bit overboard on this. I love your enthusiasm...but it's too much for the average gas and go rider.

[Daag44]

You guys misread my post. Re-read the last paragraph. It says we DON'T need gauges to be conscious of our sleds.

 

For the comment on Ski-Doo reading my posts??? Come on. Again, that was misread. They DOO keep an eye out on chatter with topics such as the POWER FADE issues.

 

Everything I wrote in that post was regarding stock ETEC sleds that we have covered in the last several months through various posts. There is nothing new and nothing revolutionary.

[Daag44]

Agreed! Daag, if you think that etec consumers owe it to BRP to go out and buy EGT, pyro, wideband O2, and water temp gauges just to carry out field testing for BRP you are crazy!

 

All gauges that you mentioned were for a modified ETEC such as in this topic. My reply to Zxmodv was regarding a stock ETEC, because he was under the delusion that they will not have problems and cannot fail due to being at the pinnacle of 2 stroke technology. Those that stutter or cut-out and run lean are good examples. The thing with the ETEC like any other two strokes that have no O2 sensor is that unless detonation is detected or the exhaust temps grow to hot, then there is no way for the ECM to detect a lean failure. This is the main reason why E15 cannot be used in our sleds. It would be easy to design it, but then we would have trouble with all the older sleds and other recreational toys that also don't have an O2 sensor. Since the law was passed against using E15, which made everyone happy, the manufacturers don't we don't need to worry about this kind of tuning, or do they?

 

Don't get me wrong, I love gauges. I have an EGT and water temp gauge on my sled and love to watch how they are affected by riding style, temp, conditions...etc.

 

So we have that in common. Ever notice how quickly the coolant temps drop when the coolant pump turns at high speeds? Obviously the engine is not cooling down that fast, but it is interesting to monitor. I have noticed at certain rpm the coolant temperature would begin to drop and rise again when the rpm would drop. It gives clues to what the engine needs to help stay cool.

But these new etecs do not need that. They are tuned from the factory to operate over a wide range of conditions for idiot consumers that put cheap gas in them and hold it to the bar all day. They are not living on the edge.

 

You are almost right. Let me correct the last sentence. They are not TUNED to the edge. It is a very big difference. Have a closer look at Chief Gotto Go's 2013 BCX 800 ETEC. Why didn't the ECM protect itself? Because it has no way of knowing if it is lean unless detonation is detected or the exhaust temps grow to hot. See how that works? It is easy. Essentially what it means is that you CAN detect a problem early and get it fixed. The good news is that you CAN do this without special tools. I devoted a complete post to this foreign concept that we do in fact have the means to help ourselves. I thought it was a pretty darn good deal.

 

 

http://www.dootalk.c...8#entry13450857

 

Also...you just don't hear about lean burn downs on etecs that are caused by tuning issues. I would say that all etec failures are due to air leaks, injector failures or bearing failures. Not fuelling...

 

Again this is not entirely correct. BRP has a bulletin out for lean issues on the 600 ETEC. This was the reason I used this sled in my example to Zxmodv. Apparently it was cause for counselling.

Sure there may be a handful of dootalkers that would like to have that level of data. But most do not.

 

Your right, most do not. But most will also be interested in the data from the handful of those who do

 

 

And I assure you that BRP would not use your data to make engineering decisions. It's just too uncontrolled for modern engineering and system performance modelling. They may follow trends on the forums to look for reliability issues so THEY can conduct further testing. But they aren't going to use Joe Shmoe's egt and wideband data to make changes to their fuelling.

 

So you are targeting me personally on this one, why? Because I used the words chatter and DooTalk being an extension to Ski-Doo engineering? First of all chatter is a word that BRP uses themselves when referring to forums, so since I am on a forum I see no reason why I can't use it. As for the extension, who is the customer? If you had a business and did not build a product for the customers, than I would not be buying from you. Great companies think of their customers. By the way, the last Canadian election was won through social media. Even the government knows it count. I doo enjoy you assurance though. 

Sorry man...you are just a bit overboard on this. I love your enthusiasm...but it's too much for the average gas and go rider.

 

And I enjoy you taking the time to reply and give your thoughts, especially the chance to spar   These are undoubtedly great sleds, and if problems are taken care of quickly then they will remain great. If we forget the problems in history then history will repeat itself. The 800 ETEC currently has a shorter life expectancy that the MachZ twin, and that doesn't bode well. In other words, if you tackle the problems quickly then you have a forum filled with solutions. But tell them they cannot use any tools when their dealers can't find the problems, then they will seek aftermarket solutions such as a PC5 or give up for a 4 stroke. You would be surprised how just a few owner being involved with finding the problems with their sleds could make a huge difference. Eel125 is a good example of this. Here is a link :

 

http://www.dootalk.c...5#entry13797314

 

[zxmodv]

I don't remember saying etecs don't fail or have issues. I said there are thousands of them out there with happy riders enjoying the pinnacle of 2 stroke development, which they are. For they're output, reliability, fuel economy and low emissions, they are at the peak of development. Only snowmobile engine design teams are developing 2 strokes now. A lot was learned from 2 stroke GP motorcycles and the intense developent that went into them for several decades. I'm saying you don't need to monitor or get "baseline information" to ride a sled. By the time you saw a rise in egt's or a pegged temp gauge, the engine is likely damaged. Your O2 readings and baselines mean nothing. It's a/f requirements change constantly, as do a carbed engine. And an expansion chambered 2 strokes 02 readings just about anywhere in the pipe are not a reliable indicator of a/f ratio and the resultant O2 level in the exhaust stream,which is why feedback 02 systems are not used on them. Do some research and you'll see why.Temp gauge? If it failed you could ride the rest of the season without it and some common sense. And you could run any 2 stroke on e15 or e85.They are perfectly viable fuels with an engine designed to use them. Note,I said designed, don't go pour any in your fuel tank.And no, engineers do not track failures or get advice from forums. That's delusional. They track failures from warranty claims,higher volumes of some engine parts being shipped, and they're own lab and field testing. However, if you want to over analyze and second guess half a century of development by the brightest minds and truckloads of r and d money, go ahead. I just don't think people should be led to believe that's necessary. This is an advice column after all, and that's bad advice.People are way better off just riding than trying to decipher the complexities of they're exhaust streams. IMO.

[Daag44]

Zxmodv, if you honestly believe that non engineers across the countries have had no input into Ski-Doo throughout history, you are misguided. You continue to make an argument using me personally, which I don't understand why except that it is the easy when the argument has no foundation. I don't remember ever saying that I am helping Ski-Doo. If I want to contribute to a change than I will write a letter to Ski-Doo just like I do to my representative. Isn't that a wonderful concept, people representing people and having a voice. I really don't know why this is complicated concept which Ski-Doo speaks about all the time, the customer. You are making us out to be ants or meaningless humain beings in this world. Good luck.