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Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?

1000 SDI Series Surviror Series

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#1 Daag44

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 01:35 AM

Two seasons I spent a lot of time trying to find why Harry's sled suffered a failure (xflipper) while his buddy's sled survived from fuelling at the same pump. The piston showed that it had melted the exhaust side. The thank was emptied dry and no water was found, but no water content test was done.

Since then I took an interest in gas for two strokes and found odd stories that I found difficult to believe. A Ski-Doo ETEC failing while a Polaris Cleanfire was showing a significant decrease in power from the same gas station? There were many such stories last season that didn't make much sense. Could this really be happening while our cars or trucks rarely show such problems?

It wasn't until almost a year later with subsequent failures that that Peter from That Girl Racing made it clear that there was nothing magical about these failures. The exhaust end of the piston crown melting showed clear signs of detonation. I didn't buy this at first, but failure after failure the evidence grew and well.....this is where we are at.

This is what bad gas can look like, but it can also look like good gas and smell like a problems as you will read later from the MachZ owner.
 

Gasoline gel like consistency.jpg


Recently, the following sleds that filled at the same gas station with Premium 93 suffered a failure or ran poorly. I took this information tonight so that you get the information as up to date as possible.

 

The failures start with the first sled that filled-up the most at this gas station, a Formula Z. It does not represent which sled is more prone to failure. This is just an approximate time line, and I got the most information possible. However it does show that few Two Strokes are protected against Bad Gas.

 

 

1st  1993 583 Formula Z SL
- Gas tank was near empty before fill-up
- Engine Failed

2nd  2013 Rush 800 RMK
- Gas tank level unknown
- Engine Failed

3rd  1998 Fomula 670
- Gas tank level unknown
- Engine Failed

4th   2006 MachZ 1000 SDI
- Gas tank 3/4 full
- Owner smelt stale gas
- Only filled 1/4 tank to full
- Survived all day
- Engine Failed the next day

5th  2010 Yamaha Nitro 4 stroke
- Started pinging
- Exhaust donut securing mechanism shrunk and got loose and began to make a rattling noise.
- Dealer emptied tank and ran new fuel.
- Problem solved with new gas with no failure

6th  2010  TNT 600
- Same owner as the MachZ
- Ran 80 km before owner made the connection with MachZ and other failures
- Tank was emptied
- Problem solved with new gas with no failure.
- 1 out of 2 survived, not bad?????
 


Edited by Daag44, 25 November 2015 - 01:43 AM.

Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#2 Daag44

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 02:00 AM

While this last story was just recent, about a month ago a member on this forum informed me of a failure with his MachZ. One of the first questions I asked was were you riding with someone and did that person have trouble with his sled. It happened that he was riding with an 800 HO owner who suffered a loss of power shortly after fill-up which luckily did not end in a failure and ended with a simple engine stall.

 

Both sleds were filled with Premium 94 from Petro Canada.

 

Like Peter from That Girl Racing has tough me, nothing needs to be overly complicated. The injectors overheated from detonation, so it was obvious to me that they needed to be flow checked. We did and found a flow problem with the failed MAG side. The owner cleaned them, put new pistons, and now the engine is running again. Simple.

 

The part that is not so simple is the crankshaft Big End bearings have now suffered detonation.

 

Are we beginning to see how complicated the Big End bearing failures can get?


Edited by Daag44, 16 March 2015 - 03:18 PM.

Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#3 TT670

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 02:07 AM

Daag when I was in the sled business we got at least one sled at the start of every season with a last seasons gas failure. I preach to all my friends to siphon their tanks and start fresh every fall and don't rely on snake oil to magically fix it.  One co worker actually laughed out loud and told me I was full of crap.....the next season he smoked a piston in his sons 500ss in the first mile of the year. People fail to understand these are high performance engines with little tolerance for inadequate octane.    You don't hear of too many mid season bad gas failures but they do happen and word usually travels fast in the town where it was purchased. 



#4 cetaneaddict

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 05:47 AM

My friends 09 f8 just had some bad detonation. The sled broke a throttle cable. He dropped it off at a shop. They replaced the cable and when he got it back it wouldn't idle properly so I adjusted it so it would idle properly. They next day we went for a ride after about 50 miles he stopped to put fuel in his sled. I didn't need fuel. We went about 5 miles and we hit a field he felt a power fade. As he was pulling over the sled died. I pulled the plugs on the pto side and both of the plugs on the pto side had the ground straps hammered into the electrodes. I had him take a picture of it. I will post the picture today. Needless to say he's going to need a crank and a fresh set of pistons. It's amazing how easily it is to get bad gas. It was from a busy gas station too.

#5 IcutMetl

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 07:29 AM

Daag when I was in the sled business we got at least one sled at the start of every season with a last seasons gas failure. I preach to all my friends to siphon their tanks and start fresh every fall and don't rely on snake oil to magically fix it. One co worker actually laughed out loud and told me I was full of crap.....the next season he smoked a piston in his sons 500ss in the first mile of the year. People fail to understand these are high performance engines with little tolerance for inadequate octane. You don't hear of too many mid season bad gas failures but they do happen and word usually travels fast in the town where it was purchased.


I did the same thing to my Mach at the start of this season. I'd rather burn the sale funky gas thru my snowblower or even my truck than have one more variable in that sled engine.

#6 Grr

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 07:45 AM

That is one nice thing about carrying a fuel caddy. If Im going out of the area I usually stop and fill it with some 110 and I can use it if I run out, or use it to spruce up a questionable fill. 2.8 gallons put half in a tank and top it off when I find good gas next

Check out my SUPER narrow XM build!!

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#7 racerray

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 08:11 AM

I am curious, what octane gas did all 6 failures use?



#8 nd2win

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 09:32 AM

You wouldn't drink last years milk, why would you let your sled drink last years gas?  Treat the gas like milk, after about 3 weeks, it starts t get sour with the gas we get these days.  I was terribly busy at the shop this summer with most problems due to having last years gas still in the tank.  Should of seen some of the pistons I pulled out.  Awful.


Edited by nd2win, 16 March 2015 - 04:18 PM.

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#9 xflipper

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 09:52 AM

Charles, it was 2 seasons ago when mine burnt that piston and my friends survived the gas fill and also towed me home with a passenger on the back of his sled. What I didn't mention is, the season prior to mine going down, his 800 ETEC  blew up and we both filled up at the same station. using premium as always. About 2 miles after fill. His locked up, so he rocked the pto till it unlocked, started it up,running on 1 cyl went to drive it back locked up again.He kept unlocking it and this happened numerous times and he got it home. I wanted to go get my truck, but he was ticked off and drove it home. Took the top end off and what a mess. Mine looked mint compare to his.What has me shaking my head is how it was put back together. He picked up a used cylinder a set of those hyper SPI pistons never took the crank case apart, just washed the crankcase out with gas and blew it out with an air hose. It is still running to this day. I thought it would have taken out the bottom end by now. I suppose luck and a matter of time.



#10 heckhole

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 10:11 AM

 

What's scary about this gasoline, is that it WASN'T last years fuel. It came from the pump and almost immediately the sled ran poorly.



#11 That Girl Racing

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 10:38 AM

Big bores and wide squish bands promote detontation. This plus ethanol fuel and inconsistent compressions ratios are a detonation episode waiting to happen.



#12 Daag44

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 11:42 AM

I think they use a shallow angles for the domes with less area.


Air/Fuel Ratio for two and four strokes
Air/Fuel Ratio for 1200 with boost
Air/Fuel Ratio is measured through emissions
Wideband and EGT
Wideband readings of Air/Fuel Ratio on a two stroke
600 SDI MY2004 Lean/Hot spot running 6900-7000 rpm @ 40-45% Throttle Opening
800R Cranking Compression
800R Oil Injection / Premix combo
800R Turbo?
900 ACE Turbo - muffler turning red hot
1200 4-TEC Mapping
1200 4-TEC MY 2009 to 2011 Fuel Line issues that could cause a fire
Batteries
Belt Blowers: Overview of UPMICHIGANDER's experience
BUDS 3.3.0 won't connect to SDI
BUDS not connecting to HO or SDI - Try a CanDoo
CVT efficiency - BlueMax
Deep snow intake for XP chassis
Diagnoses
E-TEC 600HO Clutching
E-TEC Oil Pump
E-TEC Dial-A-Jet
E-TEC Engine Management
E-TEC Stator fault codes P1562 or P1563
E-TEC Capacitor Charge Hold Test and Residual Voltage Test
Fuel Issues: Could new Ester type oxygenated additives be deteriorating the Fuel Sender Grommet?
Fuel pump and regulator replacement for ACE, E-TEC and SDI
Gasoline quality and storage
Bad Gas for a Two Stroke - Is it a Myth ?
G4 Clutch Alignment, Engine Movement, Sheave Runout and Clutching
GNR CVT Alignment for the G4
Grip N Rip Clutch Alignment testing
G4 850 Throttle Jerkiness solved with clutching
G4 850 Snappy throttle/clutch engagement
G4 850 pDrive tech - A question of Engineering
G4 850 Tuned Pipe @ 12.6 lbs and Muffler @ 15.4 lbs vs 800R and 800RE muffler weight
Pictures - How to resize and upload to DooTalk
Pipe Pressure testing on a dyno
Pipe Pressure testing from LRD (#1) and (#2)
Pipe Pressure testing results from BRP
Oil versus Fuel consumption
Power at the Crankshaft vs Track - BlueMax
Power Curves: 600 HOE (E-TEC)
Power Curves: 600 vs 800 vs 850 vs 1000 vs 1200
Power Curves: 1000 vs 800 vs 600
Power curves: 800RE 2010.5 to 2016 vs 2016.5 850
Quebec/NY State border crossing
REV Gen1 Gauge Display stuck on "SCALE"
REV Gen1 Volt and Temp Gauge install
REV Gen1 electrical connectors for sensors and MPEM (Multi Purpose Engine Module)
Shortblock or Rebuild?
Ski-Doo Snowmobile Tech Training
Stator testing for E-TEC using a T harness/Bridge
Stator testing for 1200 4-TEC
Stator replacement for a 1200 4-TEC
Suspension Adjustment
Triples - Coolant Pump Assembly
Y-Pipe bolts loosening fix


#13 gary sheldon

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 02:35 PM

I am curious, what octane gas did all 6 failures use?

93 premium fuel

this years toy
2010 tnt 600
xps decals
with yellow & blue plastics
blue slides
cobra track
droped 2 teeth on top sprocket
grip n rip brases
fox poidum x with duel rate springs on the front
zbro x1 rears all shocks by A-MAIZE-ING Kustoms
new gas tank sendind unit or what ever it is called in the tank

2006 Mach Z 1000 all stock sep for a can


#14 SDI-Rick

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 04:59 PM

Big bores and wide squish bands promote detontation. This plus ethanol fuel and inconsistent compressions ratios are a detonation episode waiting to happen.


Is there an improvement to be had here Peter?

#15 That Girl Racing

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 05:19 PM

Yes. Twin plugs like Cat uses.





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