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So how are the 2012 Summits doing?


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#16 summitrider2012

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 09:00 PM

Took the backhoe dug a hole cut the concrete wall supporting the floor where i removed the wall and rolled the sled in with a dolly the suck parts going to have to do it again when the snow falls... Supposed i should just used the double door that leads to the outside instead next time. ..had to say it :-)

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#17 EMTDOO

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 07:59 AM

Well get the backhoe out again so you can get that thing on the snow and let us know how it rips. HAHA
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#18 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 08:16 AM

Of all the gearing I did right down to 19:51 since that 51 gear hit the market, I think that there is going to be overwhelming data coming in of guys loving the lower gearing.
I suspect that owners should be getting their sealegs on the 12 sled and find out deficiencies first before contemplating a gearing change...
...and I bet guys who gear up, will eventually go back to stock gearing. Im willing to put $ on it.

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#19 Jumping Jack

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:16 AM

Joe,
It seems like your view is different than most. You gear down and others gear up! Others use softer primary springs and light weights and you like stronger springs and load the primary.
You just have to be different, always going against the grain when it comes to getting the power to the track.
Can you explain the relationship between the clutching and gearing. My guess is doing one without changing the other will produce mixed results. This may explain why you are different or than again, maybe no way to explain it!!!
If you're not getting stuck your not trying hard enough!

#20 LRD

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:45 AM

I have read with the 19/51 gearing they also changed the helix angle and went
to a softer spring in the secondary. Anybody know those two particulars?

I'm guessing the softer spring allowed flatter helix angle that gives good
backshift but with the softer spring maybe allows good upshift and maybe more overdrive.

When I longtracked my 08 TNT I went from the black to the green spring. Have
never had the purple in it.

Back in the late 80's when I seriously got into snowmobiling, the polaris's had really wimpy
secondary springs and flat helix angle's, I think in the mid 30's.

Seem to remember the theory that was kicked around was that with a steep angle helix the
secondary when trying to upshift would kind of run into a wall at a certain point. While the
shallow angle/softer spring would just keep shifting and shifting and the engine keep winding out. Sure
seemed to prove out with the old Indy 500 liquids which on a good day maybe had 70 to 75 HP
and had tremendous top end for that amount of HP compared to other brands.

So again if that 19/51 gearing is working great, what other changes in the system did they make?

Good Luck

#21 LRD

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 04:18 PM

Found the answers to my questions myself on Doos parts list for 2012 and the high altitude tuning specs at St. Boni Motorsports and Goodwin Performance

The 800R Summit with the 19/51 gearing has - Blue Sec Spring 157/221 lbs - 417-127-118
Helix is straight 40 degrees - 417-126-956

This s RADICCALLY Different tuning on the sec compared to the 2011 and earlier. 2011 had Purple 231/303 lbs with a 41-47 helix

The 600HO Summit with 19/49 or 19/51 has Black Sec 157/303 lbs. 417-127-039
Helix is 41 - 45 degrees - 417-127-105

#22 winter brew

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 05:26 PM

Found the answers to my questions myself on Doos parts list for 2012 and the high altitude tuning specs at St. Boni Motorsports and Goodwin Performance

The 800R Summit with the 19/51 gearing has - Blue Sec Spring 157/221 lbs - 417-127-118
Helix is straight 40 degrees - 417-126-956

This s RADICCALLY Different tuning on the sec compared to the 2011 and earlier. 2011 had Purple 231/303 lbs with a 41-47 helix

The 600HO Summit with 19/49 or 19/51 has Black Sec 157/303 lbs. 417-127-039
Helix is 41 - 45 degrees - 417-127-105



Gearing changes everything relative to clutching calibration.....especially a significant change like this. With lower gears the secondary senses less load, with less load it doesn't need as much spring/helix backshift signal.
The primary stayed the same.
It will be interesting to see how close they came to an actual mountain oriented setup, definatly steps in the right direction IMO.
With the etec being cleaner they were finally able to get rid of that reverse angle helix and meet the regs!...or so I am told that was the reason they had to go to the goofy reverse angle in the first place.
If nothing else, it will be cheaper to throw the 3" lug on there not having to buy gears! :righton

#23 Jumping Jack

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 08:44 PM

Our group rode in Revy for 4 days last weekend. The snow was very deep and the visibility was not good most of the time. It snowed about a foot each night up top. We had a 2012 Pro RMK with 163" track,a new 2012 Snow Pro m800 with 163" track and a 2011 etec 800 summit X with 163" track.
I hate to say it but the Pro RMK kicked the other two's butts. The RMK seemed to be able to stay on top better. The other two did ok but once they started lossing ground speed they would start trenching while the RMK would just keep on going past. We switched rider and the same results happened. We made adjustments to the rear suspension but this didn't help. All three sleds were pulling their rated RPM at wide open throttle.
I have never had a different brand stock 800 beat the etec before. The clutches on the RMK were just warm when the others were quite hot. I looked up the gearing on the RMK and they are geared way taller than the summit. Not sure about the Cat. If I remeber right to chain case gearing on the RMK is 20/42
If you're not getting stuck your not trying hard enough!

#24 Teth-Air

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 09:06 PM

Our group rode in Revy for 4 days last weekend. The snow was very deep and the visibility was not good most of the time. It snowed about a foot each night up top. We had a 2012 Pro RMK with 163" track,a new 2012 Snow Pro m800 with 163" track and a 2011 etec 800 summit X with 163" track.
I hate to say it but the Pro RMK kicked the other two's butts. The RMK seemed to be able to stay on top better. The other two did ok but once they started lossing ground speed they would start trenching while the RMK would just keep on going past. We switched rider and the same results happened. We made adjustments to the rear suspension but this didn't help. All three sleds were pulling their rated RPM at wide open throttle.
I have never had a different brand stock 800 beat the etec before. The clutches on the RMK were just warm when the others were quite hot. I looked up the gearing on the RMK and they are geared way taller than the summit. Not sure about the Cat. If I remeber right to chain case gearing on the RMK is 20/42


This is exactly what I went through in colorada last season and it was all due to 3 things, 1 soft early snow, 2 my DS skis would not climb (too narrow for the weight v.s. type of snow) and 3 the Polaris track is exceptional in this type of snow, it packs soft snow and the doo track trenches in it, Later in the season things turned around.
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#25 BIG JOHN

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 09:47 PM

21/51 with New cooling cover, 40 cam, softer spring, best clutch alignment to date (3 mm further out from last years spec) would yield better all around performance....the 19/51 gear just pigeon holes sled for high elevation/deep snow....we all know not "ALL" summits run in those conditions....imho/testing BJ
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#26 Jumping Jack

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 10:41 PM

BJ, givin this info would you agree that if a person was riding above 6000 ft in the steep and deep that the 19/51 gearing would be a better choice than 21/51?
If you're not getting stuck your not trying hard enough!

#27 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 01:30 PM

BJ, givin this info would you agree that if a person was riding above 6000 ft in the steep and deep that the 19/51 gearing would be a better choice than 21/51?

Better choice for "what"
Question - what is your target? What is your "I want to see this definitive thing happen"

Don't answer with the word "gearing, gear, geared" dont talk about anything in the chain case.
Say a thing which you want to happen, an event or action, something that you want to come to pass.
From naming your target then can frame a test that is quick, easy and fun to show proof arising from the testimony of the sled itself. Then you won't be making changes from a story passing from one person to another.

What is the target thing that you want to come to pass? More "what"? :revinmotion:

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#28 Jumping Jack

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 08:17 PM

The question or target is getting as much track speed while climbing a steep hill with heavy snow load. We ride in the trees so we are on and off the throttle all the time, lossing momentom. Once you get back on the throttle you need the track speed to recover quickly.

Target #2 is not burning up the belts in this condition. If the gear ratio is too high more load is put on the clutches. More load will result in more heat and reduced use of the clutch faces.

What's your view on these targets.

Lets say the belt alignment is good, target Rpm is achieved at WOT.
If you're not getting stuck your not trying hard enough!

#29 Akwelder

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 12:37 AM

On Monday I took mine for a run. The snow was light so we were mostly on the trail. This is a common early run for us, 43 miles in to the lodge and back out. We had a couple runs off trail. I noted a couple things

1- The fuel milage sucked! by far the worst I have ever had. My 95 Mach 1 beat it! I hope it improves after the break in.

2- Clutches were much cooler then my 09 model Summit 154

3- The top end was 20 MPH lower than my 09

4- The sled had very impressive acceleration, knock you back and go

5- The narrow front end was not a problem on the trail or at high speed trail

6- The new gas can nozzle is a deal breaker, this will be the last gas can from ski-doo i buy unless they get rid of it


In the end am i happy i got the sled? Hell yes! the sled is great, but I am beginning to wonder if heroin would be a cheaper

#30 Dynamo^Joe

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 09:29 AM

The 800R Summit with the 19/51 gearing has - Blue Sec Spring 157/221 lbs - 417-127-118
Helix is straight 40 degrees - 417-126-956

This s RADICCALLY Different tuning on the sec compared to the 2011 and earlier. 2011 had Purple 231/303 lbs with a 43-47 helix

Dig deeper and examine the quantities that these values bring forward. Pg 16 of Aaen's book shows you how to calculate side force vs shift ratio.
The helix numbers and spring forces may look like a radical difference in the system however when you determine the sum of two forces that push against the side of the belt, the side forces are only slightly different through the upshift, yet are more.
Using Aaen's formulas, the new setup has about 30 lbs more side force at the beginning of the shift and starts to reduce forces, slowly meeting the old setup forces at about 9/10'th of 1:1 ratio.

6/10ths of the belt-on-primary sheave position is approximate 45mph track speed @ 19:49. At that position, the new setup produces about 10 lbs more than the 09~11 clutch setup if both of them maintain the same gear ratio.

I would say not to worry, in the 2012 calibration there is more force being put on the drive belt at the most usable range of heavy loaded track speeds from 29~45mph than the previous 09~11 setup.

The 2008 calibration with straight 42 helix 231/300 secondary spring has more sideforce than all of these setups through the whole curve. Someone with an 08 model wanted to get close to this 2012 setup would just have to 1)remove the 413's from the primary and install a set of 441's. 2)install an adjustable pinweight to get 8200 rpms. 3)follow the 2012 gear choices (19:49 & 51). As far as the track and suspension well you can't do anything much about that technology unless one upgraded to improve upon these ground engaging components.
4) option, if one wanted even more perky bottom end and stronger engine braking then my mountain ramps will be the cherry on the icing.
5) a smoother launch would be to remove the 160/320 primary spring, change to a 130/320
(in the past few seasons, even Big John has suggested the combination's of 1 and 2 applied to an 08 model )

Yeah you can see the calibration numbers stamped on the helix and spring, however dig deeper and figure out the forces of what they provide. (side force vs shift ratio.) JumpingJack asked me why I sometimes go against the grain, well...I just like to push on the sides of the box to make it bigger.

I love BRP. :wub:

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