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Union Bay Billet 521 - 670 Rotary Valve Intakes & Fuel Injection?


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#1 RotaxFlyer

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 03:52 PM

Ok, I got 3 Union Bay Billet 521 to 670 Rotary Valve Intakes. I'm looking for
some Fuel Injection Options for a 670. I was looking at some Throttle Bodies yesterday
on the net and I came across some for Weber Carb replacement. After looking at the Bolt
Patterns it got me thinking, these UBR Billet Intakes look to have the same Bolt Pattern.

Has anyone heard of putting Weber Carbs on one of these Intakes?

Each of these UBR Intakes is different Carb Angles, I don't remember what Angles, but I
want to say 7 degrees up, straight, and 7 degrees down. On these Weber Carbs, they talk
about IDF, IDA, DCOE, which use I think different Bolt Patterns.

These UBR Billet Intakes can use up to 45.5 - 46mm Carbs. I was looking at 40mm Throttle
Bodies.

Here is one, 40mm IDF Throttle Bodies replace 40mm Weber Dellorto carb, I just found on
ebay $279.99.

Attached Images

  • 40MM IDF Throttle Bodies replace 40 mm Weber dellorto carb 1.jpg
  • 40MM IDF Throttle Bodies replace 40 mm Weber dellorto carb 7.jpg
  • 40MM IDF Throttle Bodies replace 40 mm Weber dellorto carb 9.jpg


#2 RotaxFlyer

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 03:54 PM

My UBR Billet Intakes look like this. I have to measure the Bolt Patterns to compare against these IDF, IDA, DCOE patterns.

Attached Images

  • UBR RV COVER.jpg

Edited by RotaxFlyer, 18 May 2017 - 04:01 PM.


#3 RotaxFlyer

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 03:57 PM

I found my better photo's of one.

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  • MVC-104S.JPG
  • MVC-106S.JPG


#4 RotaxFlyer

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 04:09 PM

A 40mm IDA Throttle Bodies replace 40mm Weber and dellorto carb. $279.99 on ebay. Most of the Sizes seem to be 40mm, 42mm, 45mm.

Attached Images

  • 40IDA Throttle Bodies replace 40mm Weber and dellorto carb 1.jpg
  • 40IDA Throttle Bodies replace 40mm Weber and dellorto carb 2.jpg
  • 40IDA Throttle Bodies replace 40mm Weber and dellorto carb 4.jpg

Edited by RotaxFlyer, 18 May 2017 - 04:32 PM.


#5 RotaxFlyer

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 11:09 PM

This Racers Edge 670 Intake looks to have same Bolt Pattern. Some IDF and DCOE dimensions. Does anyone know if this Racers Edge is still in Business? Got a Web link to them?

Attached Images

  • 670 RACERS EDGE INTAKE.jpg
  • dcoe_dimension_gaskets.jpg
  • IDF CARB.jpg

Edited by RotaxFlyer, 19 May 2017 - 09:30 PM.


#6 RotaxFlyer

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 11:55 PM

Pinto Weber DCOE Intake Manifold IGES CAD File.

https://grabcad.com/...take-manifold-1

 

45mm Quad Plate.

https://grabcad.com/...rburator-flange

 

 

I cut down the Quad Plate to a Dual Plate and I'm going to print it out on some Clear Transparency and overlay on my Billet Intake.

Attached Images

  • WEBER THROTTLE BODY.jpg
  • Weber dual 45mm carburator flange.JPG

Edited by RotaxFlyer, 19 May 2017 - 12:49 AM.


#7 RotaxFlyer

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 09:19 PM

These cheap 40mm, 42mm, 45mm, EFI Throttle Bodies if they mount on these UBR Billet Rotary Valve Covers and if Inter-Faced with Ecotrons EFI Software and other parts would give the Rotax 521(532UL), the 580, 582, 583, (582UL), 617(618UL), and the 670 a fairly cheap EFI option. I have never tried to put these Billet Rotary Valve Covers on some of the smaller Rotary's like the 440/470 and smaller engines, so they may work for other Engines also.

The Part that needs to interface to the Ecotrons EFI Software and ECU is the TPS Switch (Throttle Position Sensor) on the throttle body. It's the Black part on the throttle body. Still researching these TPS Switches, but I believe there is only so many Types 3-4 used.

 

I like the idea of direct Bolt on Throttle Bodies, no Carb Boots to leak, these throttle Bodies use O-Rings, show Black Rubber (Melt at 200F in a fry pan), I would subsitute for the High Temp O-Rings (melt at 500F).

Attached Images

  • ECOTRONS 2-stroke-1.jpg

Edited by RotaxFlyer, 19 May 2017 - 09:23 PM.


#8 RotaxFlyer

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 02:51 AM

DCOE = DCO stands for Doppio Corpo Orizontale ( Two Barrel Sidedraft ), and the E is for the type.
The DCO was a early sand cast version ( '50s ), dont know exactly when the DCOE was introduced, but I'd guess some time in the '60s.

IDF = Generally speaking here is a run down on the differences:
The letters are model designations followed by the throttle size in millimeters.
The Weber ICT 34 is a single throat dual.The Weber tuning book I have calls it a primitive design but they work well for smaller street engines unless your trying to pass an emissions test.

The Weber IDF comes 36,40,44 & 48mm.It is a very popular dual throat. It is used as a dual and often as a single carb(with different jetting). It is a great street/strip carb.

The Weber IDA 48 is a serious race model.It can be modified for the street and often is. It is also often modified into much larger throttle diameters for monster engines.

Close, I is for Inverted, what Italians call downdraft. F is for Fiat in this case, not Ferrari.

IDA = It sounded like the IDA prefix means racing only. The only OEM listings I saw were Porsche (904/911/914-6).
The IDA was introduced in 1964. Prior to that, the IDM was used. An IDM is almost exactly the same as an IDA, but a little more crude. I have seen references to use of the IDM back to 1957. One famous use of the IDM was on Masaratis. Thus the M is for Masarati. My guess is that when they redesigned it, they were using them on so many other cars (Porsche, AC Cobra, Masarati) that they gave it a neutral application letter "A"
sideshow wrote:
D must NOT mean dual barrel, maybe D is used in pairs?
D means double choke, definitely. IDAs were used in pairs and sets of 4 and 6. The number of carburators on one engine has no effect on its type designation. There have been some cars that only got one IDF.
sideshow wrote:
IDF were listed as used as OEM on Fiat, Ford, Lamborghini, Lancia, oddly no Alfa Romero OEM listings. The guess is that F is Fiat due to volume or used first, however that same argument could be made for Lamborghini. So F is Lamborghini?
Lamborghini gets the letter L, as in DCNL. This is the Lambo version of a DCNF. If an existing carb works perfectly on a new application, they don't change the letter. IDFs have been installed on Lamborghinis. The DCNL is a radically reworked carb, specifically designed for Lamborghini.


Edited by RotaxFlyer, 20 May 2017 - 02:52 AM.


#9 RotaxFlyer

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 07:54 AM

FUEL INJECTORS:
We can supply any of the following pair of genuine Bosch injectors:
Bosch 375cc injectors - will flow enough fuel for 65hp each injector @ 90% duty cycle.
Bosch 440cc injectors - will flow enough fuel for 75hp each injector @ 90% duty cycle.
Bosch XSpurt 725cc injectors - will flow enough fuel for 125hp each injector @90% duty cycle - additional $30 extra per injector.
Bosch XSpurt 1000cc injectors - will flow enough fuel for 170hp each injector @90% duty cycle - additional $35 extra per injector.
NOTE: The XSpurt injectors start life as genuine Bosch EV14 injectors which are modified to increase their flow.

Attached Images

  • THROTTLE BODY INJECTION 45IDF EFI - 3.jpg
  • THROTTLE BODY INJECTION 45IDF EFI - 4.jpg


#10 RotaxFlyer

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 08:39 AM

Injector Color codes


WARNING:
In most cases the color codes below are correct, I've been told that its not always true and people have been burned on E-bay and such. For example, Bosch part number 0 280 150 931 are 19 lb injectors, are red top, and are used in Aerostars, Explorers 96- and others. The Bosch 30#lb injectors are part# 0 280 150 951.
Also some green top injectors 25lb, I don't have info or part numbers for them. I'm sure there are others so buyer beware.


Gray = 14 lb. (5.0L Ford Truck)
Yellow/Orange = 19 lb.
Light Blue = 24 lb.
Red = 30 lb.
Brown = 35 lb. (4-cyl. SVO Turbo) (Low Impedance)
Dark Blue = 36 lb.
Lime Green = 42 lb.

NOTE:
Low Impedance are typically 2.5 to 4 ohms input resistance.
High Impedance are typically 13 to 18 ohms input resistance.


These are most of the part numbers I have for Bosch "42 pound per hour" injectors, followed by the flow rating from Bosch for 43.5 psi:
0-280-150-400 41.6 Lb/hr
0-280-150-401 41.6 Lb/hr
0-280-150-558 39.75 Lb/hr -- this IS the lime green Lightning inj.
0-280-150-559 39.75 Lb/hr
0-280-150-588 40.0 Lb/hr
0-280-150-608 42.0 Lb/hr
0-280-150-969 42.0 Lb/hr
B-280-410-144 41.2 Lb/hr
R-280-410-144 41.3 Lb/hr

Some other hi-impedance (saturated) 42# injectors:
P4529495 (Mopar Performance) 42.0 Lb/hr
522-420X (Holley) 42.0 Lb/hr
5208009 (Lucas) 42.29 Lb/hr
621031 (Lucas) 42.29 Lb/hr
150X40 (Accel) 40.0 Lb/hr

#11 Daag44

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 10:25 PM

Nice TBI setup!

 

Microsquirt will work for the Engine Management. I think that you could go a lot further if you put your mind to it which doesn't seem to be a problem.

 

http://www.msextra.c...p?f=134&t=55250



#12 RotaxFlyer

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 11:11 PM

Nice TBI setup!
 
Microsquirt will work for the Engine Management. I think that you could go a lot further if you put your mind to it which doesn't seem to be a problem.
 
http://www.msextra.c...p?f=134&t=55250

===================================================================================
In post #9 $467 complete Throttle Body with Injectors and TPS and Air Horns on ebay.

I'll check out Microsquirt. Most of these other Fuel Injections are geared for Cars, Trucks,
Boats, and want an arm and a leg for them.

Ecotrons EFI is pretty hard to beat for Prices, for up to 800cc complete setup was around $800
total, up to 300c was $450. I like their Tuning Software, they also have a Smart Phone App.

I like these Weber Based Throttle Bodies account they look to Bolt On and don't use Carb Boots.

Nice for the Rotary Valve Engines. You could probably make an Adapter Plate for other engines.

Edited by RotaxFlyer, 20 May 2017 - 11:13 PM.


#13 Daag44

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 12:42 AM

===================================================================================
In post #9 $467 complete Throttle Body with Injectors and TPS and Air Horns on ebay.

I'll check out Microsquirt. Most of these other Fuel Injections are geared for Cars, Trucks,
Boats, and want an arm and a leg for them.

Ecotrons EFI is pretty hard to beat for Prices, for up to 800cc complete setup was around $800
total, up to 300c was $450. I like their Tuning Software, they also have a Smart Phone App.

I like these Weber Based Throttle Bodies account they look to Bolt On and don't use Carb Boots.

Nice for the Rotary Valve Engines. You could probably make an Adapter Plate for other engines.

 

It's only showing 8 posts for me. I searched some of the words and didn't find them. Post the link to make sure we are looking at the same thread.

 

Here is the original Build Thread. The first link below goes to page 12 where Matt Whitbread starts talking about the Microsquirt setup on his Banshee. The next link goes to post 187 where he got help from the Microsquirt Forum members that found the msq file was corrupted which comes from the first thread link I gave you in the previous post, although that particular problem is not showing in the thread. I'm guessing he got a lot of help over PM that doesn't show-up in that thread. From my understanding he had two separate issues, one with too much fuel overrun, and a second with a corrupted file. Not really important, but just in case you try to sort it out like I did.

 

http://www.bansheehq...nce-new/page-12

 

http://www.bansheehq...13#entry1624697



#14 RotaxFlyer

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 01:29 AM

It's only showing 8 posts for me. I searched some of the words and didn't find them. Post the link to make sure we are looking at the same thread.

 

Here is the original Build Thread. The first link below goes to page 12 where Matt Whitbread starts talking about the Microsquirt setup on his Banshee. The next link goes to post 187 where he got help from the Microsquirt Forum members that found the msq file was corrupted which comes from the first thread link I gave you in the previous post, although that particular problem is not showing in the thread. I'm guessing he got a lot of help over PM that doesn't show-up in that thread. From my understanding he had two separate issues, one with too much fuel overrun, and a second with a corrupted file. Not really important, but just in case you try to sort it out like I did.

 

http://www.bansheehq...nce-new/page-12

 

http://www.bansheehq...13#entry1624697

 

I was talking about #9 in this thread, that Throttle Body with the Green Injectors complete $467. Some of those throttle Bodies on eBay are cheaper $270 but don't include the TPS Switcth $44 or Air Horns which you wouldn't use on a Sled or Ultralight.

 

Most of these older 2 Strokes up to 740cc would be using smaller Injectors also. There is some Free Smart Phone Aps for Injector Sizing.

Attached Images

  • s-l1600.jpgTPS Throttle Position Sensor 2.jpg
  • TPS Throttle Position Sensor 1.jpg


#15 RotaxFlyer

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 01:38 AM

Fuel Injector Calc

http://www.witchhunt...jectorcalc1.php

 

Skidoo 670 112hp at 7750rpms

 

Attached Images

  • 670 Fuel Injector Size - 112hp.JPG





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