hello all i am very new to the 4 stroke1200 and thinking of buying 1 and want to put a fpp stage 1 turbo on it.i do not do much wrenching or tuneing so can you tell me how much testing will have to take place to get this setup to rock?is this mostly a lake race setup or is it good on slow tight trails too?(15-30mph)does it have alot of lag at theses speeds?also how much life will it take out of the motor?is this setup able to be run at high speeds on trails like canada for long stretches?has anyone found a good clutch setup for this yet?

thanks

fctyson0,

Check out the last few pages in this section, search for FPP related topics and the subsequent posts. There are a few posts with feedback from current and to-be FPP trail kit owners. Should give you a start and answer your clutch questions as well.

Understand the basic needs of a turbo engine and you'll be OK (good quality fuel, watch your engine vitals, coolant temps, and boost, etc)

The stage 1 is a trail kit, no lag and probably already more HP then you'll need. Wouldn't recommend holding it WFO for miles on end on a lake without knowing you have good fuel... goes for any high HP modded machine.

Mauri,

How would this kit work at altitude? It really shouldn't require any additional parts should it?

for what i have found anyone runing this setup is going to need aftermarket clutches.and that can be big money on top of the 3500.00 for the kit.

I don't have my stage one Ski-Doo up and running yet, but based on what I've done with the Yamaha's with this turbo size, (and I've done a lot of them) and the Z1 Cat last year. I can answer your general questions.

The only testing you'll have is dialing in the drive clutch you plan to use. Justin has the fuel injection dialed right in.

It is a trail kit and will run like a stocker in the trails only with much more power potential when on the throttle. Stage 2 would be more of a lake race kit and could be turned down for trail use.

There will be no lag with proper clutching.

You can run fast speeds but I wouldn't hold a boosted sled wide open for miles on end. The tracks are the limiting factor. Keep in mind a sled that’s boosted would run 110 MPH at 1/4 throttle or thereabouts.

Turbo kits are not fool proof, I don't care which kit it is. You need proper cooling and octane levels, the boost needs to stay in line with octane levels that will not deto. Too many people get greedy and turn up the boost without knowing the consequences. It gives the kit or turbo charging a bad name. It would be best to go to TY to learn about boosting snowmobiles till you get the idea of what you will need to know to get started in the boost game. It's not for the guy that knows nothing about boost, let alone nothing about the mechanics of the machine.

I'm going to be working with John Wheelock of Pro-Line performance to come up with a good reasonable priced drive clutch with proper calibration. Going to be the Comet 4-Pro or the Comet 108 EXP. Also have a Stage Six billet clutch I ran on my old race sleds but their no longer produced. I'm sure there are others working on clutch combos but I haven’t heard of any. I would think Full Power or CJ's would be coming with something too.

If you do a search for FPP turbos on this site you'll get much more info too.

My take is that it won't need anything for the turbo system alone, but clutch setup and gearing is what would need to be optimized for deep snow or altitude load conditions. But that is with anything...
The stage1 wasn't intended to be a mountain face climber, usually guys blasting up chutes are running much much bigger HP.

Unfortunately the stock 1200 clutches are not on-par with the tried and true stock Yamaha components when it comes to holding much additional power. So that almost dictates replacing OE with aftermarket clutches and the significant additonal cost for them above the kit cost. If they held up like Yamaha clutches, the springs and weights, or a helix, etc could be included rather easily but when it comes to complete clutches, this is something that is more often then not a customer preference for what they want to run for the price they want to pay.

I know that FPP installs a Micro-Belmont primary and a TEAM secondary conversion on their customers sleds, those are NOT included in the kit cost. And nothing says it's a requirement to use what they offer.

There are several clutch options available, STM, Comet, Polar, TEAM, etc and quite a few different dealers that are Dootalk members / sponsors. These guys, along with other membrs who are also developing their own clutching (like Dynamo Joe, Dave Dunn, etc), have the experience with each brand, and have been developing calibrations specific to boosted 1200's, so a good starting point to talk with them.

if i were to do a boosted sled i would want it setup to run 87m octane fuel but would put 93 in if available.lots of times fuel is not always good in my areas.also does air temp change cause you to have to retune these sleds?

Your fuel octane desire is just like the majority of the rest of us boosted trail machine owners...
I think we ALL as sledders have that problem with fuel quality (hi perf 2-stroke's suffer from this as well), especially if your not in a suburb with constant trun-over of the fuel supply at the station to ensure fresh not stale.
Fuel grade and quality is an industry problem, not just a location problem anymore Reason why so many of us splash race fuel in the tank when we want to push the boost alittle more... added insurance
The issue that is not talked about is that the 10% ethanol in pump gas is not mandated right at 10%, only requires 10% minimum so you'll get varying % of ethanol from station to station (at least in NY). The ethanol % messes with AFR's (leans) unless it's comped in a closed loop EFI like found in automobiles and trucks, etc.
It's un-scientifically mixed when it's delivered in the truck, very loosy goosy as long as it's min 10%... We discovered this while grass drag racing, trying to find pump gas that met the fuel spec for oxygenation and would pass tech, found some stations were as high as 21%!!! No wonder...

Turbo kit designers and builders, just like sled OEM's, try to accomodate for this variation by running the fuel programs on the safer / richer side. The FPP controller isn't totally a "black box", it has some adjustment too to accomodate fuel quality, etc. so you could lean things down slightly for good fuel and sqeak an added pony here or there. But reality is a turbo will already give you more power then you can use so, unless you are racing and pushing the limit, you won't miss that extra smidge to be on the safe side.


All the current 1200 turbo kits are still EFI sleds, just like stock, so they still auto compensate for altitude and temp... unlike conventional carb'ed.

i would much rather run 185-200 hp on 87 octane and be safe with 93 in it.i worry about the long high speeds on the trails in canada(70-100 mph)

Understand that 70-100mph down an Ontario highway wide trail is not going to be at WOT under max boost, a boosted sled will cruise part throttle at those speeds if geared properly.
Where you'll need to worry about fuel quality so much is for extended WOT runs or loads at max boost, pushing it, where intake charge heat builds up rapidly and detonation is most prone... deep snow / powder, mountain snow chutes, 9 mile long lakes, etc

You'd be shocked how little % of time most boosted sleds are at wide open on the trail, you'll usually either quicky run out of straightaway or run out of driver talent...


Apply common sense, as KnappAttack suggests...

Yeah, that's what I figured...motor doesn't care what altitude it is at, boost is independent of external conditions.

Clutching and gearing of course...not because of lack of power though...power should be pretty close..more because of load variations from flatland apps to mountain apps. Get a new primary with a few springs and weights and a shockwave on the secondary and a guy should be in business.

Like Mike had mentioned..I looked into the 4 Pro last season..Comet told me that it would be acceptable on this level of power. MCX is also using 108's last year without issues or so it appeared.

You're certinaly right on the Yami's being bulletproof. Alot of fairly high horsepower sleds running OEM clutches without much issue. A friend of mine has a HP3 Propane powered Nytro at 300+ hp and stillruns a stock primary with good success.

... 9 mile long lakes, etc

You'd be shocked how little % of time most boosted sleds are at wide open, you'll usually either quicky run out of straight trail or run out of driver talent...

I my case I think it would be FRIGHT! There is no way I could hold anywhere close to 9 miles at 120 + MPH. LOL

If you held one of these things wide open for a ways it'd be more like 145-150 on the speedo. Prolly more like 135-140 real speed on GPS. We cruise the turbo sleds 1/8-1/4 throttle 100 MPH all day long, even in 4" loose snow. The guys with the stockers need to remind us they are WFO cranking the stock engines guts out just trying to keep up.

Man I can't wait! My personal solution for inconsistant fuel is going to be carrying a jerry can full of 110-112 on back with my first tank leaving the house for the day mixed at 50/50 110/91 octane then when I fill again empty the jerry can and top it off with the highest octane available to get me back home? Just a solution for someone who only rides 150-200 miles per day max and is worried about the quality of fuel at each stop.

SDJ,
That is a great solution!

I ride about the same, maybe less in a day, so I think I'll consider that now that you made me realize that I have a tunnel extension to strap one to this year... Not something I would have typically thought about, with abundant gas stops along all the trails I ride out east here.

Sweet! Now I'm excited!

Yes yes HAHAH BOOOST Can not wait i think back in 03 when i put a Bender kit on my RX1 that 1st ride at 5-6PSI was JUST NUTS!!! Then set up at 12-14 the POWER WOW!! Then the Nytro the S.C. had that BANG power but did not have the top end legs like a Turbo.(dont get me wrong it was fast) Plus the Nytro is far from a top end sled. Now this new 1200 Doo with a Powderlights turbo i feel is going to top any thing i have owned to date!!!

Skydog

How come you wouldn't run a meth kit???? Most gas stations have the washer fluid on the shelf during the winter months. The Yammi guys have been running it for years.

One thing at a time Rodder...one thing at a time!!! just a personal preference I guess???!!!

Rodder,

Water / Meth is a proven winner, no doubt and I have a simple Snow kit sitting on my workbench, but I like the KISS concept...
I won't lie to you, I am leary of depending too much on that to protect my engine if something hickups (like a plugged nozzle), because I have already had my share of bad luck with electrical gremlins on pumps, sensors, etc. some self induced. But I will inevitably be pursuaded to throw it on in order to keep up. LOL!

Snows sells some pretty great fail safe set ups on their sites. I'm sure Hurricane will be helping out with meth kits. I agree with one thing at a time also Junky. I'll be running just a bit of extra boost on my sled this season. Probably 215 with 20 on the button. If all goes well i'm turning it up and getting a meth kit. My sled will turn timing back and turn back the boost when it senses detonation.

Nice feature on the Cat.

That is exactly what I do and it worked well last winter. I don't care what turbo you have, when you start pushing 200+hp your motor will not survive on 87 octane. I don't care what they tell you, it just won't. You need a meth kit or mix fuel, it is as simple as that.

Of course it won't survive on 87 octane for longer blast of WFO so why not run 92-93 octane. Is it just a Canada thing that premium fuel is not available? I've never had issues using 92-93 octane anywhere I've ridden in the US on any of the turbo sleds.

Another solution is to stay out off the throttle if you have to fill with 87 or 89 octane fuel. You don't have to get heavy in the boost for long periods knowing the octane isn't there. I've filled with 87 many times when I've had to on the Yamahas and it's just knowing not to push it during this time. If you're not making full boost no harm will be done. HP per octane is peak cylinder pressure related!

Extra Race fuel in a jerry can is good insurance. One Gallon added per fill does wonders to spike it up a bit for a little insurance.

Meth is a gamble with no deto protection.

Deto protection is where the Cat turbo Z1 shines, problem is, Octane light goes off on it over 210 HP with a longer blast, it pulls also pulls timing out prior to pulling boost on 92 octane

Ran Meth it works hands down! But.... on a trail sled just lots of stuff.... I had no more room any where on my sled. Starts to feel like to much stuff going on....LOL

Skydog

On trails where you can stay out of the boost lower octane maybe ok if you have to run it for a short period of time to get home or until you can get better fuel, but here in Canada where i ride I'm not on trails and usually in deep snow breaking my own trail and am always boosting 5-7lbs so I have to have good fuel.

Skydog, amen on the "TOO MUCH STUFF" going on and who wants to clutter up a sweet looking motor compartment!

Rodder, I know you love the Z-1 but you coming back around here can't make me help but wonder how long it will be before you are back on a Doo?...brother we will gladly take you back!!!!

Mike K...if you are having John Wheelock help with clutching why don't you guys come spend a weekend at my place in Hayward Wi? He is there almost every weekend at Chief Lake lodge, rent is cheap (free) at my place and I happen to know where there are a few "secret test tracks at as well"...I would love to meet you and compare set ups!!!!!

SDJ

guys got another question for u.how do you think the added parts under the hood will take a pounding on a ditch banger.2-3ft bumps.will stuff loosen and come apart from the pounding?

Which Snow Meth kit would yaa recommend on the 4tec FPP stage 1 running 9lbs of boost ?

Your turbo will require more maintenance; especially after ditch banging. You need to frequently check fittings & oil & water lines. These things are not set & forget.There is a lot more maintenance involved in just checking things over.Heads up tho...if you grab too much throttle after a tuff landing you better be pointed towards an unobstructed area. Most people have no clue how quickly a boosted sled will get you into trouble.
As for meth I run the set up from Hurricane performance. Why would you not buy from someone that has done a boatload of sleds allready & can get you dialed in very close right from the start.

Um, very good point Turk. I can speak for this personally, few occurances where I ran out of talent and had to shake a turd out of my pant leg.
If traction is good, it's like being flung out of a sling shot... Luckily I've kept it off of imobile objects and shiny side up. I know of a few whom weren't so lucky, recall a multiple endo by "Dangerous Dougy Dawson" at 140MPH in Old Forge two years ago on his brand new Stage3.

It's not so much a specific kit for a specific model sled, the kits are universal and can be installed on anything with an intake, but it's how much do you want to pay for the extra bells and whistles / additional fail safe options like pressure sensors, warning lights, and boost limiting valves, etc. and how much DC power do you have to spare to power all that.

I have only a base Snow Performance kit, no fail-safes, so if a nozzle gets plugged from sitting for an extended period of time, corrosion or something, or the wire to the pump gets a loose connection, and I have my boost turned up to rely on that meth... first time I get into the boost unknowing, what's next?
That is the only reason I have been hesitant, only because I don't have the fail safe options yet and already have too many electrical gadgets / consuption on my sled for the available power supply...

I agree, Hurricane Dave has been leading the charge on setup and dialing in meth on sleds the past year or so.

Thanks for the replies on the Meth Kits. I will be contacting Hurricane to set us up with a Kit.

Hurricane!!!!!!!! All the way!! This was a kit i made up from a car. Dave was not doing it at the time, but he saw this sled and said she was spot on!! Dave is the Meth king for sure!!!

HEHEHE .. not to stir up the pot ... but ALKYCONTROL all the way !!! Julio ROCKS ! If anyone knows ALKY its him .... it took him years to convince me .. but im sold ... his stuff is PREMO quality ... I added in a few twists of my own ... its bulletproof.

Rodder, I know you love the Z-1 but you coming back around here can't make me help but wonder how long it will be before you are back on a Doo?...brother we will gladly take you back!!!!

LOL!!!! The Cat performed great for the amount of time i rode it last year. I've owned all the brands now so that is out of the way. As far as going back to Doo??? I still stop at the local dealer once a week, love the crew there and their service is top notch to say the least. When they come out with a boosted 1200 i'll definatley be checking them out. As far as me lurking over here, the discusions on here are great and as far as Cat sites go?? Dootalk has them beat hands down.

Running a stage 1 trail sled at 6ibs 2200 miles on 91 no problems. Running a Polar performance 4 arm with great results these sleds have 0 turbo lag . Fuel mileage is great look at some of my opld posts as I have wrote a few reports. I live just across the lake PM me if you need any help/. Polar clutch is $1200 US so it is not to bad and I have a setup which uses the stock helix with good results. I would suggest a air fuel also. No wrenching as of yet but just need to pay attention to the sled .

plus man what lake you talking about?

Was talking to Justin fuller and Mark(dragster) from CJmotorsports at the snowshow and I got a chance to check out there stage one handy work.

For those that want a kit that will deliever great power and you don't want to crack your engine apart, these are the guys to talk to

These guys are top notch lads and gave me the chance to put my hands on some of there innovative ideas for fixes on the tra clutches and there new aluminum air box for the 1200, some nice stuff for sure.

One other note was that they had just got back from the dyno with some great results on there stage 2 setup some nice hp for sure.

Cliff Yeatman

Cliff, What did you find with your hands on the stock XR1200 clutch? They have something that will work on the TRA now and not tighten the bolt?

Mike.

Yes they have come up with a nice little modification that's simple, yet I think well solve the rotational problem.
Mark(I hope that's right I'm bad with names)said they wanted to do a little more testing , but it looks VERY promising.

Cliff Yeatman

well all have to get on mark monday morning , when i spoke to justin he was introducing over 20 items for the 1200 this year being marketed through cj motorsports kevin

[quote name='cs1006' date='Oct 3 2009, 12:41 PM' post='2469462']
well all have to get on mark monday morning , when i spoke to justin he was introducing over 20 items for the 1200 this year being marketed through cj motorsports kevin


The one thing I like about talking to Justin is he brings many years of experance to the table from all the years he was with bender.

Cliff Yeatman.