Ordered up my boost today. Mark from CJ's was very nice to deal with. Have the stage one, their new quiet can, and 38 tooth gear coming. I'll add the blow off valve and planning to try the Comet Four-Pro as well as a Stage Six billet clutch. Will work with John at Pro-Line Performance to come up with some Ski-Doo clutching prior to the snow flying on the track dyno, after that its off to the white stuff.

Should make for one of the best trail sleds I've ever had. Figure around 210-215 pump gas HP in the light chassis should be just the ticket to spank 96.2% of the sleds out on the trail today and provide for some great smiles.

Sounds like Mark is headed to the dyno again next week to verify some new silencers and other goodies he has on the agenda.

Now I just need to get the sled home, It's still two states away in Greenland MI.

There's nothing wrong with that kit,regardless what others say.
Whats funny is how everyone gets tired up in the hp wars when very few of them have driven a well setup 200hp trail sled let alone anything bigger.

Congrats on the purchase,I'm sure you will be happy with it,especially at the price, it leaves lots of doe to do the clutching a traction.

Cliff yeatman

Congrats Mike! Should be a fun little sled. There's a few guys on here who ran that setup last year and if you actually talk to any of them, they all seemed to have good luck with it as long as they took it for what it was

How right you are Cliff!

I had a stock compression 195 HP Simons turboed RX-1 that was faster than an Attak I had with a 260 HP "mountain altitude" turbo kit with re-timed cams, head shimmed and reduced ignition timing. It must of been one of those first generation controllers you've heard about that wouldn't work in the snow, because it sure didn't, it was one lame piece of machinery. Made power on the dyno but just didn't have it in the snow. The stock engined 195 HP RX-1 was just an overachiever. I expect this FPP stage one 1200 to be the same with stock compression.

I kicked a track out from under that RX-1 at 132 MPH on the lake with "just 195 HP". The "altitude turbo kit" that did 260 HP on the dyno, wouldn't do 132 MPH on the snow. Go figure.

Another Simons turboed Attak I had at 270 HP would scare the crap out of me on the trail, now it was just too much power and weight to hang onto till you got to the lake. I figure the Doo with 210 should be just right. You know, just like the three bears children's story, you have to find the machine and power level thats just right.



Rotax Kid,
Yes, most guys had very good luck with the kit. It's the few that never had turbos before or got a little greedy without octane levels that had issues. Install and knowledge of boost, octane and everything mechanical is required with a turbo.

One thing you are off about is the 96.2% My certified calculations indicate 97.3% Enjoy!!!

Knappattack

" Install and knowledge of boost, octane and everything mechanical is required with a turbo."

So true,I guess thats why the more plug and pay some of these kits are the better it is for about 85% of the riders out there.

I have a MCX kit on the way for my 1200 build,for me it wasen't so much the price, but what I will be starting with so I can get where i want to go hp wise ,I really like the air box as it will flow to the moon, and there header and intercooler are top notch,change to race fuel and a better controller and there's close to 400hp in there for the lake.

The fpp kit will be a top notch trail sled and will be very responsive, just what you need for trail point and shoot corner to corner power.

Youll have to posts some pic's of the build so we can see this weapon being built.

Cliff yeatman

Knappattack

are you sure about Greenland Mi because that is in da UP
Greenville has Nelsons skidoo
that is where I got my gade
funny story there I wanted a black gade and they told me they had one
I sent them a deposit and went to pick it up
well when I got there the salesman says I cant have the black one must take the yellow
I drove 3 hours to get a black gade and I did not want to leave with a yellow one
go see the head cheese and he says the black sled has a oil leak and they were going to pull the
motor out to find it, so I left with a yellow gade
are you getting a 09 or 10

SKIDOOCHRIS,
I bought a used 09 black gade from a dealer friend of mine, Kip McIntyre at Pats Auto and Sports. It has 120 miles on it and was used for one day in the UP by Yamaha for their comparison rides. Yamaha goes out and buys all these different brand machines, the Yamaha brass all come up for a day or two and they ride all them back to back to compare other lines to their product. I've been up there when the brass all come in for the ride, quite interesting.


Cliff,
that MCX is one fine piece of engineering, very nice kit. It will treat you well. It also is tried and true, lots of money though. Whew. You too please keep us updated on your build and take pictures. It will be fun to compare notes and find the little items that make the difference.

I agree with the FPP kit, wanted to keep the compression just for the reasons you mention. Can't wait to pull the trigger. Wife is a little miffed with the money spent on snow machines and boost every year, but she knows I have fun and need a project every winter since I quit racing.

Not a problem, I'm planning a site build, as this kits going on a 1200 in a 05 RT chassis.

Miffed, I wish the term i could use for my wifes opinion on this build was so mild LOL

Oh well she will get over it, I'm sure it's not the worst thing she's been "edit for bad language" at me for.

Cliff yeatman

Knapp attack yaa will have 2 respect your thumb on the trails with new boosted Doo.I have the same setup on my 09 Gade and its been a blast.Zero promblems once I tossed the stock clutch and secondary.Justin fixed me up with a mirco belmont and team secondary clutch setup and it rips.We should line them up sometime ,have Doo will travel,,,,,,,,and this was our 1st doo 2

Wow sweet!! So there are the 3 kits!! I got the Powderlights, Mikes got the FPP kit, Cliff yeatman with the Mcx boy should be A FUN YEAR!! GO DOO!!! LOL Boy did not think i would be saying that!! LOL But the most important thing guys BE SAFE!!!

Skydog P.S. Maybe we will all meet on a trail/lake some day!!!

A little miffed? Mine use to really shovel out the flack for my "better to ask for forgiveness then to beg for permission" snowmobile hobby philosophy, but now she'd prefer that trail machine spendature over what we spend to go racing... Atleast she enjoys a payback from trail riding.

Congrats on the purchase, Mike!

If you don't mind my asking how much do you have invested to make everything run as it should including the clutch? And will it survive 87 octane in Quebec?

Thanks

I agree with the FPP kit, wanted to keep the compression just for the reasons you mention. Can't wait to pull the trigger. Wife is a little miffed with the money spent on snow machines and boost every year, but she knows I have fun and need a project every winter since I quit racing.[/quote]


Mike.

So what,s the ETA on your kit, will you have it soon enough to have it mostly worked out before Snow.

I heard a rumor that they already had a stage 3 or 4 in the works, did you hear anything about those kits when you where ordering.

Mcx has a upgrade to 270hp, but requires better fuel and a different program.

What clutch are you thinking on running ? myself I have already spoke with steve payne for a clutch and hardware,are you thinking maybe a comet pro4??

Man the colder the night the more pumped I get.

Cliff yeatman

Cliff,

It is in stock but I'm holding off shipment till after next week as Mark is going to the Dyno to test their new quite lightweight silencer.
If he's happy with what they see, I'll be receiving that silencer with my kit. I insist on having them quiet and stealthy for the trail.

I really didn't want more power than what the stage one offers. I am wanting a 200-220 HP trail machine as I have related to prior. I plan to run only a Iceripper XT in hopes that the track stays intact without cutting cords for studs and additional weight slinging around trying to explode the track with its weakened belting. Anyone that has ridden a good 200 HP turbo will tell you that it is more than enough. There is no real two-stroke trail sled going to run with 200 HP turboed four-stroke. I'd say it would take a good tuner 220-230HP for the equivalent two-stroke trail machine, even at that, all you have to do is stay in the throttle till the two-stroke blows. I was not interested in the stage two even. If it was going to be a lake race sled then that would be different, but if I built a Lake race sled It would be a high RPM 4 cylinder turbo Yamaha.

I want to run the stage six billet clutch I used when I was racing my V-Max, however the Comets are cheap, available, and plenty up to the task of holding the power and staying together. We ran a Aaen/comet four-pro on Simons 7 second Turbo drag sled with over 500 HP and it withstood that just fine. Only thing with cast clutches is you want to throw them away when they start to cracking at the post area on the sheaves from heat checking. If you don't slip the belt on engagement all the time they will never crack, its all how you drive them and set up the clutch so it doesn't slip excessively. I also used the Comets successfully on my Arctic Cat drag sleds for many years. They are my favorite clutch to use after the Stage six which is no longer produced. Haven't tried the STM or the Polar but they also look like nice pieces. Was never fond of the Hullings Quad Cam. It was always a poor performer for me.

On a driven clutch note, we installed one of the new Team tied drivens on John Wheelocks open mod turbo dirt digger and I must say I was really quite impressed. Enough so that I think it's going to be in use there for a while. Now if we can just work out all the other bugs going to a completely new chassis/engine, fuel injection/ignition and turbo package. Talk about pulling your hair out!

Mike,
We just started playing with a TIED clutch on our PS800 Vmax4 dirt digger last week and feel the same...

I thought Wheelocks open mod at HayDays was also one of the most impressive of the weekend, didn't skip a beat or break. We waited around just to see it run that last race.

anyone know what kind of top speed we should see with this kit?

Based on what I've seen with the Yamahas with a 65 HP increase, I'd say 25-30 average MPH over a stocker on speedo if everything is tuned properly in trail type conditions. A 200 HP Yamaha will run 150 on the dreameater on hardpack conditions fairly easily, 1200 Ski-Doo should do the same. Depends on a lot of factors, how many studs, temp, altitude, gearing and clutching of course.

Turbos add huge to the midrange powerband and acceleration also.

Mike, with having a 10.5 gallon tank, how many miles do you think you will be getting per tank. Also will you need to run meth or just run 91 Octane. I may be interested in yours after the season is over. aka sledfreak on TY.

Rotax!,

Here is a quite from burrhead from another topic, he ran a FPP stage1 last season and this is what he had to say regarding mileage. Other guys were claiming to get good mileage, supposedly comparable to the 800R's, if they weren't allowing their thumb to get happy...

From what I'm hearing from the guys running them last year they will go 120 miles fairly easy in trail conditions. No reason not to expect the same mileage I got with my four cylinder Yamahas which was anywhere from 13-16 MPG US figures or the turbo Z1 being the same.

No meth needed for 6 lbs of boost on 91 octane either. Now if you’re going to up the boost over that it would need race fuel or meth injection. I myself don't see the need with 215-220 HP. Anyone that has ridden a good 200HP+ boosted trail sled knows what I'm talking about. It's just the right HP number, especially in the lightweight XR1200 package!

Mike how are you getting 15to220 out of 6 lbs boost. I can see 195 to 200 max. I think you are a little high considering the stock manifold is very bad for adding any extra ponies to your eqation. Add meth go to 10 lbs on stock crs and add a header and bang you got a handful of explosive power.

Kevin,
Those are the #'s it's been dynoed at on DynoTechs dyno with a free flowing can @ 6.5 lbs which is the suggested premium pump gas setting. Stock silencer it showed 205 HP. I'm figuring it will be around 210-215 depending on the silencer used. I trust that DynoTech Jim is not fudging the numbers. At least its been tested at an reputable independent dyno facility, not to many out there have!

That is more than enough for a trail sled for any sane person, even if it is a few HP high. I don't think I'm going to add meth to this one just yet anyway. Going for the KISS plan. Keep it simple stupid. I've beaten many higher HP sleds with less power, in fact I kind of would rather be the underdog with less power on paper, it just always seems to work out well for me.

You doing meth on yours this year?

No meth on this one lol, I have a new drum of c-16 that I will spike with gas and do a little higher boost running, but if I were doing it again it would be no shim 10-12 lbs on meth with the tallest gears possible in the chaincase. Everything is in and looks to nice now to go back and add the pump and tank. So far I have been running it a bit on grass and its a blast. Its been changed a bit though, my own header and a 2871-4 turbo, waiting on my RB3 now from Dave, stacking it with the MCX stuff getting some timing control and the ability to move fuel in or out, I think this thing will be a screamer when Im done, We have always had issues getting enough fuel to the efi sleds with one set of injectors but we have that beat now. Need fuel on the big end if you want to make power that lasts.

Yea like the Meth it does work great!! But on my last build with a Turbo i ran meth/ stock cr kind of gets to be alot for a trail sled. parts,parts,parts and more parts starts to add up on the trails........

Skydog

Pounds of boost is just a number ... it wont dictate absolute power ... you can make 250 + hp on 4 psi .. or 250 hp on 12 PSI

Dont get caught up in the boost game .... the LOWER you can keep the boost .. the better off you are ...

Ive been reading on here about compression VS Boost ... and I think alot of misinformation is being spread ..

Its not static Compression you are worried about .. its the dynamic that will give you issues.

There is nothing wrong at all with running MORE COMPRESSION and BOOST .... its not necessary to KILL the COMPRESSION .. and for a trail sled the stock OEM pistons are just fine ... no need for all the HI BUCK custom pistons... the 1200 from doo will support 300 hp until you are TIRED of it .. just make sure to have the fuel covered ... add Meth and .. you have a WICKED trail setup.

Horse power increases on a pressurized engine are linear. Easiest way to approximate is as follows. If normal atmostpheric pressure where you normally operate is 15 lbs per sq. in. (normal sea level) and your boost pressure is 5 lbs, you are making 33 1/3 % increase over your rated base HP. 7 lbs boost would be 50%. To be totally accurate, other things such as cam, etc, have to be considered but this way will be pretty close.

Turk, I am no way an expert, but simple physics would disagree with that formula. When a NA motor operates, the intake pressure is not the same as the AP. The motor creates a vacuum, so 15psi would not be the value that you would use thus 5psi at the intake would be more than a 1/3 increase.
Yes/no??

These #,s are pretty bang on on any Yammie boosted sled I have seen/owned & also have dyno reports for. Alltho not dead nutz it will get you very close. Trust me; it is closer then u think.
I am just seeing some real high hp #,s for the 1200 doo vs amount of boost.

Turk.

Not to disagree with you but there's a large variance in your math.
Supercharged Yamaha's run very close to 8-9 hp per Ib of boost and kits like PL and mcx run around 12hp per Ib of boost. that's a big gap once the boost goes above 10 Ib's

We have had some customers large hp sleds run over 13hp per Ib.

Cliff Yeatman

[I am talking low boost at 5/7 pounds. After that the ratio changes. No where no how did I mention any hp figures after 7 pounds boost.
We have a boost calculater that takes into account bore/stroke/compression ratio/elevation. When you plug in all the numbers it gives you a very close proximity to the hp you will have & octane you will need at different boost levels.
it,s a pretty handy tool.

Turk.

Is that the one over on TY your talking about,I've seen it up there but never looked at it.

And actually:) no where did you say you weren't...LOL

But I'm blind in one eye and can't see out of the other.LOL

Cliff Yeatman

Turk,
Probably can't use a traditional comparison of the Yamaha Genesis (and others) to this 4-Tek with that boost calculator program because the 1200 has a very different airflow characteristic (in a good way) and explains why it makes more power with less boost...
I think this topic got tossed around quite a bit already.

Mike is right, I also recall that Jim at DynoTech had explained it in his article on FPP's testing results of their stage1. Don't have it in front of me, though...

That is due to the Yamaha having a good intake and exhaust design to start with. The SkiDoo starts with a large disadvantage at both intake and exhaust on the stock sled setup. If you start the 1200 at let's say a baseline of 145 HP the gains are more in line with the Yamahas. Note that most of the turbo kits for the 1200 have very different intakes and exhaust headers from the stock design.

Just some thoughts.

This is taken from a turbo site I was reading, it more applies to the guy that wants to turn up the boost. I also have several friends with forced inducted 1500+hp cars that all run a lower than normal compression ratio.

for a given octane rating, fuel detonates certain temperature/pressure combinations. The higher and higher the pressure in your engine, the higher the octane rating must be (you can cool the air before it gets into the chambers, i.e. intercooling to reduce the detonation point but at some point, the cooling is overcome by the CR) in order to run as it should. By raising the CR, it forces the same fuel to ignite at a lower temperature; i.e. the higher the ratio the sooner the fuel ignites.

When the fuel, b/c of high pressure environment, detonates before it should (predetonation), the timing of the engine is off basically screwing up the internals. The pistons aren't at the top of their stroke when they should be, the valves are open when they s/b closed, etc. To offset the predetonation, a higher octane fuel has to be used as the CR increases.

When you throw in being able to up the boost in s/c or t/c, the lower of a starting CR you have the better; it means you can run say an 20 PSI boost vs a 14 PSI boost w/out getting detonation if the CR was low enough to begin.

I totally disagree.. which is why i posted not to get caught up in boost numbers

if I read you correct 80 psi in a bike tire and 80 psi in a tractor tire is the same 80 psi at 1 atmosphere ... we all know thats not true...

put 15 psi down this motor with a aerocharger 53 series ... then try that same 15 psi with a borg warner s2 series with ETT and tell me the output is close.. apples and oranges .... you can see tremendous differences in output at the same boost level ... which is why i commented ... Dont JUDGE a KIT by the boost number ... it really makes NO DIFFERENCE .. i would look for the one that makes the power at the LOWEST boost level

Andy .. sorry I have to disagree... I will say this .. it depends on what the engine configuration is as well as the camshaft LSA and many other factors dynamic compression most .... it also depends on the size of the turbo you are running and the efficiency of the system... there are many factors that come into play... one big factor is how you want the motor to respond to the boost ...

Power dictates fuel requirements .. not compression ratio ... you can have a 11.0 : 1 CR ratio LS7
not detonate at 14 psi ... and you can have it knock like hell at 6 psi .. that same LS7 at 8:1 will feel like a slug until it gets into boost.. and depending a few things such as cam selection and LSA as well as how the cam is degreed .. you can make it very happy at a higher 10:1 and still keep the boost up.
The higher the compression the lower the boost you have to run to get the same power provided you can keep up with fuel demands... Much also has to do with turbo sizing you can lose drastic power going from 14 psi to 20 psi

I dont agree that in a trail turbo 1200 you have to lower the compression to achieve power and maintain reliablity...

"In theory yes, but in reality no!!!!! "


Yes Blue in the real world on the street or the trail ... yes ... this is a REALITY

I can show you cars that have picked up from 600 rwhp to over 800 rwhp at the same boost level...

I can also show you a turbo 1200 that has picked up OVER 30 hp at the same boost level with a turbo swap..

Ahhhh!! Your changing the rules. The amount of airflow in any passageway (let's say the passageway is fixed in dimensions like the 1200 intake port) is determined by the difference in pressure from one end to the other. The amount of oxygen that gets to the combustion chamber is determined by the pressure difference and the temperatrure of the air. The combustion chamber is interested in the amount of oxygen entering the engine. If the pressure is measured at the entance of the engine's intake port and the air temperature is the same, the horsepower PRODUCED will be proportional to the pressure measured. The OUTPUT horspower at the crankshaft may be different due to the power required to turn the compressor and pressure losses due to piping and the heat exchanger between compressor and the point where the pressure is measured.

The problem is the turbo compressor airflow output is only close to linear over certain operating parameters, hence the attention payed to a given turbo's compressor map.

Why does a ported cylinder head make more power then the same stock cylinder head at the same boost pressure at the ports?
Volumetric efficiency is better... flows more air.
At the same pressure, more is able to "slide" into the cylinder when the intake valve opens.

Horsepower produced is proportional to the amount of air / fuel mixture that actually gets into the cylinder, that in-itself is not always proportionally related to the pressure measured.

Albeit you can compensate for this by "forcing" more in with a higher pressure...

this is EXACTLY why i am stressing that BOOST is just a number ... nothing more and isnt a indication of power production potential..
the lower the boost at the same power level.. the better the setup.


I have learned very early on ... that what you get via equation and theory ... in the real world ( street and actuality) Does not always coincide.
and I will be the first to admit .. when I heard about 26-28 psi on pump fuel ... I said NO WAY is that possible .. cant happen ... now days its a reality

alot of the turbocharging world has changed .. the books people read now were written YEARS ago... and that is OLD SCHOOL...

what works on one setup may fail miserably on another .... one application may generate 1000 hp the same setup on another motor will only get you 900 hp .. but once you are able to understand WHY there is a difference .. then you can resolve the difference in level.


The best possible suggestion to people I can make on turbo setups is keep a open mind .. and educate yourself on all aspects of what you are trying to achieve ... once you start to understand how the system as whole functions and are able to adapt to its limitations ... only then will you be able to truely harness what is available to you. YES its a investment of time ... but 4K for a kit is also a investment...

happy boosting

im not changing any rules .. only following them ... reality rules

there is a minimal difference in power from differences in compressor size .. typically a turbo takes about 3/8's of a hp to drive and even the larger ones arent significantly more ... its not a BLOWER and cant be treated like one.

you can have the SAME TEMPERATURE at the intake port with the SAME BOOST PRESSURE and have a totally different power output between turbo's at the crank.

I always worked off Boost as a measure of restriction, CFM is king on any engine regardless of boost pressure numbers. If you take a good ported head vs a stock head the same turbo and WG settings should show less boost on the ported head, all things being equal as you have improved flow and reduced restriction.

I agree in a TRAIL turbo 1200 doesn't need these things if this is what or ALL you are after. How many people build a sled or car or any toy and after a few months or years want more and have to tear into everything again cuz they didn't do it right the first time. I say build your projects so they will be able to exceed your short term goals. Or just be happy with the limits you built into your project.

So so so true all ways want more!!!!! hahah

Not going to happen if in both cases the engines are at the same RPM. You just gave the definition of airflow and airflow is airflow. Again this pressure has to be measured at the intake. You can have the same boost pressure at the turbo outlets with two turbo setups and not have the same pressure at the flange surface of the cylinder head intake port.

This from dynotechjim in an earlier post. Talking about the extreme power form less airflow from small turbo on the XR. I knew I read this somewhere. Makes the GT25 look very good using just 6 lbs of boost compared to the same turbo on a Yamaha.

I think typically there is a loss of boost from the compressor to the cylinder, Be them only small,these are Usually caused by inefficiencies in the system.

The efficiencies in the airflow ranges on any turbo can be seen on the compressor maps, and I think this maybe where everyone gets confused,sure any given turbo will push more boost,but as soon as the boost limit has been pushed below (we'll us 80%) the bang for your buck starts to fall off.
Throw into the mix a poor air box design or poorly connected charge tubes and these can and do increase these inefficiencies.

Something else to think about and maybe someone already mentioned it, but just because you can push 10Ib's of boost and get a curtain HP/Ib gain doesn't mean that if you push it to 20 the same equation will fit.

Cliff yeatman