OK guys, I am looking to see the difference between kits...without bashing on somebody elses kit.

I wont be looking to buy a 1200 till maybe next year, and hopefully Doo does a Summit version then.

I have been running a 2 stroke turbo since 2002, but the 4 stroke stuff is all new to me. The additional weight factor has always turned me away.

I would kind of like to see a breakdown of kit components. Help me fill in the blanks...lol

If there is additional stuff I overlooked, I will at to it.



Here is what I know: PowderLites-----MCXpress-----Turbo Performance

Turbo: Garrett-----Mitsu-----Aerocharger

Intercooled Yes-----Yes-----Yes

Fuel Control: Rapid Bike3-----Their Own-----Attitude

New Header: Yes-----Yes-----Stage2+

Additional Injectors: ?-----Yes-----?

New Intake Plenum: Yes-----Yes-----Stage2+

Head Shim: Yes-----Yes-----Stage2+

PowderLites for me!

It would seem that alot of guys got a good look at all the kits durning haydays. I am sure the consensus was the powderlites kit is the kit that is at the top of the pile. I beleive there was one with a nice duct tape job of the charge tube feeding the stock airbox...food for thought.

[quote name='turbo800' date='Sep 23 2009, 09:52 AM' post='2454569']
OK guys, I am looking to see the difference between kits...without bashing on somebody elses kit.

I wont be looking to buy a 1200 till maybe next year, and hopefully Doo does a Summit version then.

I have been running a 2 stroke turbo since 2002, but the 4 stroke stuff is all new to me. The additional weight factor has always turned me away.

I would kind of like to see a breakdown of kit components. Help me fill in the blanks...lol

If there is additional stuff I overlooked, I will at to it.



Here is what I know: PowderLites MCXpress Turbo Performance

Turbo: Garrett Mitsu Aerocharger

Intercooled Yes Yes ?

Fuel Control: Rapid Bike3 Own ?

New Header: Yes Yes ?

Additional Injectors: ? Yes ?

New Intake Plenum: Yes Yes ?

Head Shim: Yes Yes ?



Mcxpress all ready has one full season under it's belt and there are many kits out there.

Mcx was the first to build a aftermarket kit for sleds and was funded by YAMAHA to do so(for the RX-1.

As well, many do not know this but they (mcx) are entering the russian market place this year and expect to sell 500 kits this year alone, when you put the #'s togther thats almost as many as all other builder did last year.

They may not build the fastest kit out there(although ,will have to wait till this season to see about that ), but! that's not what there about, there about building a kit that is customer friendly, plug and play, put gas it and drive.

There are only 2 kits out that have been proved in the customers hands their MCX, and FPP, I'm sure the other kits are good as well.

Do your research ask alot of questions and be reasonable about what you really need in a kit, and in the end you will be happy with your choice

Cliff yeatman

Cliff,
Who is FPP?

Honestly, I like the intercooler design of the MCX better than Powderlites. But I like the shape and design of the header pipe and EFI controls of Powderlites better.

I worked in a performance shop a while back, we did a few installs on the RX-1's, mostly with the Bender rear mount kits.

Just looking for good pro's and con's of whats out there.

Thanks for the input.

Full power performance, I know CJmotorsports sells those kits

http://www.cjmotorsportsonline.com/miscpage_002.asp

FPP's site seems to down right now it's

http://fullpowerperformance.wingnutwebinc.com/

Cliff Yeatman

Well,I'm sure that there is good and bad in all kits.In particular the 1200 doo.I've seen some of MCX's ideas and some are impressive.We like Powderlites kits for several reasons.The fit and finish is second to none and they seem to make more HP then others.While other kit manufacturers released 1200 kits last year to make sales,Powderlites kept developing their's to get it right. Also,I know Dave personally,and I try not to be prejudice,but it's his PASSION and HONESTY that does it for me.He has learned NOT to release his kit early and let the consumer work the bugs out,possibly with their engines damaged.

Thanks guys, great feedback.

I have seen some of the MCX stuff run really good on Apex's, but this will definately be a tuff call. I have nothing but time..lol

Not to be negative...but companys sure know what the want for kits. After running my Aerocharger for several years and not overly impressed with spoolup time, I built my own kit. I know you pay for R&D time by the developer, but its a bunch per kit.

Anybody building their own kit?

BTW---I run about 12psi boost through my 800 on 100 octane from 4500~10K feet elevation. I would want a kit that makes about 250+HP on 100~110 octane for my elevation.

Are you saying this kit(PL) has been released and is on the snow to the general public ??

I was not aware they where out and getting lots of trouble free miles on them.

All produces, be it pipes,clutch kits or turbo kits have growing pains, some more then others.

I was unaware that the MCX kit was so troublesome.

Could you elaberate on what problems you have seen with this kit?

I do realize that this kit was designed as a plug and play monkey free kit for people that just want to drive thier sled for many troulble free miles.

Cliff yeatman

I disagree with you sir and here is why, the powderlites kit has been kept in development to ensure a top quality kit upon release. The MCX may have a year on snow along with FPP (we all know the cobble job it is) but they are not the top hp producing most complete kits available. With the unmatched tuneability of the RB3 in the powderlites kit, the included gauges, the top quality materials used and the extensive testing who can argue the powderlites kit is not superior? Try as many might to discredit powderlites they are and will be the #1 turbo kit builder in terms of quality/ hp / and tuneability for this season.

Cliff,here we go
If you will reread my post,no where do I imply that MCX was troublesome.In fact I said,that they have some good ideas.As far as what you know,,,I'm fortunate to have a perspective about your experience that no other on Doo Talk has.I have kept quiet up till now as not to discredit you publicly.Do not,because your displeased with my recent Dyno purchase,discredit me or my true friends.This SHOULD stop here.

A7M266D'

I think you need to reread my post above, where did I bash powderlights??

I asked a question that to this point has not been answered.

And is a valid point, until the kit is in the hands of the general public there is no basis to state reliability!

Turbo800 asked a question on what was out there for kits, I mentioned FPP because they sell one not because I was pushing his produce or mcx's for that matter.

I told him what I know about MCX because it's info most people don't know,breaking into a market like Russia is LARGE busness. if there kits are so bad then why are they sold on over 10 countries around the world.



Cliff Yeatman

I have owned them all, I have done R+D for one company. Say what you will for a gas and go high giggle factor, MCX is second to no one. If they want to build a race version look out it will go. They build what makes good economic sense with a very good reliable product. I dont feel that the nytro kits from Powder Lites were ever completed. They still have issues with fuel to this day. They need a return on the end of the rail Dave , talk to Danny even he admits that one, . Enough arguing guys snow will come and all will be proven, Im looking for miles of fun,

Wow...kinda got heated.

I dig the RB3 software, as long as its not locked to dealers only. I have the Dynojet PC3 on my V-star, and love the flexability to adjust fuelmaps for mods, etc...

I have a little concern that the PL coldair filter is right in front of the intercooler, where as the MCX is directly behind the intercooler, not great for heat though, but could be plummed straight up for fresh air.

The PL is a little bit less expensive (I think), but MCX has dealers closer.

The MCX has a flex pipe on the turbo exhaust outlet, might help header cracking...

Just some thoughts...

For me if you do break down what is available from the big two MCX and Powderlites you can weight a few of the following.

RB3 is huge and you can make your own maps
Dave Dunn is doing the testing out East here and will have awesome clutching to go with the kits
The Powderlites comes with Boost and Air Fuel gauges
Im not sure if the MCX has a muffler that maybe a cause for concern in your area
The Powderlites is Made in canada for Americans their money goes farther

Do your research and call each manufacturer they will be more then happy to explain their kits and their approach talk to each and make up your own mind after doing some research.

EDIT 10/7

I recall their CJ's/ FPP stage2 turbo Renegade at the American Snowmobiler / DynoTech Research Adirondack Shootout last year won the fastest ET award in the trail class and won the quietest giant award too. So that is actually two years in a row for FPP!!!! They won the same exact awards in 2007 with their turbo Yamaha APEX?

That should speak for itself, the ability of FPP no matter what brand.

Not to discredit the other builders...

I disagree with a few of your points here is why the FPP kit will not be the high hp and tq producing kit the other two will be on pump gas, the engineering into the powderlites kit is head and shoulders above the fpp kit. Anyone that sees the two kits installed side by side will immiedately notice the difference. The duct tape and screws holding the charge tube into the leaky stock airbox is enough to turn the smarter guys away. To each his own I guess for the money the powderlites kit will be the biggest highest hp producing most efficient kit on the snow. I have no stake in any of this just from seeing the two and my experience with running MPI apex / nytro and plowderlites apex. Seeing the two doo kits side by side is all it takes to make up your mind.

OK, so did the Duct Tape work? Kudos to them for finding an economical solution instead of a needless polished billet part made from super $$$ un-obtainium. LOL!


The FPP trail kits weren't designed or developed to make the biggest highest hp producing kit on the snow because 99% of boosted trail kit customers don't want that, don't need that much or won't ever use that much HP, and want simplicity and reliability from something they can afford.

Hey, isn't TEAM Industries setting some impressive numbers on tar with a FPP stage 2?
Eh, must be the Duct Tape!!!!!

My fellow sledder I do not wish to argue with you only state my view on the kits available. the FPP kit also had oil line troubles, and also the wastegate outlet dump which was not allowing the turbo to produce pump gas safe boost. The FPP kit also uses the stock log manifold with an adaptor piece this again is my preference to use a tube style header. In my opinion the very tight turn in the manifold on the mag cylinder would cause that cylinder to run hotter. Not saying they are not all without trouble but in my opinion the powderlites is the best bang for the buck.

And I'm stating my view... with facts to counter your biased opinion.

Yes they had some issues, everyone does when new, even PowderLites Yamaha stuff when it first came out... And that was on the first few FPP production kits that went out the door last year. The FPP kit designs are not "new" anymore, that is what actual ride time and many miles on the trails can provide.
Seems they had the opportunity to rectify some gremlins since, and develop fixes for weak links in the Doo design that others haven't even found out about / been exposed to yet...
Since they beared the burden of being to market first, they will always be one season experience ahead of the rest and have layed the path for all the followers.

Yup, the stock log manifold works well for their kits. Along with the otherl reliable solutions intended to avoid unwanted cost.
I agree totally it might not be ideal for 280+ HP, but they don't care because it works for their 180-260HP kits just fine. And they don't crack!!!! What a novel idea.

I am not saying the PowderLites kit isn't worth the cost, you get what you pay for with a work of art. I'm saying you can't compare the two apples to apples with bashing or your going to be confronted.
There is also something to be said for simple, and less expensive, and easier to install, etc.

Wow! All you turbo addicts are a stubborn bunch... lol Too many fuel additives maybe...?


(This was only meant as humor...lighten up guys,we need positive discussion!)

Might be the leaded race fuel, or Vodka...

Maury, You and I have met, I cannot say the same A7M. With that being said I give kudos to ALL of the turbo kit mfgs as each of their set ups are personalized and have great points to each. I do realize that FPP was the first to the table to boost a 1200 and go public with it and hats off to them for that! I personally followed that thread like a HAWK last year through all the trials and trivias. Them being the forerunner gave other companies a place to start as to what would work and what won't. I personally do alpha and beta testing for a US company that designs assisted steering systems for agricultural use. I DO know what is involved in testing a raw product and what its initial failure rate can be, this is something that the general consumer takes for granted and does not fully understand. With that being said I would hope in NO way that anyone interested in turbo charging a 1200 doo puts any weight in the bickering in the previous posts. I do agree that FPP and MCX has the upper hand with either a partial year or full year of testing under their belt, but there will be MANY mfgs on their tails this winter with a great product as well. It is no secret that I am a promoter of Powderlites set up but I feel that without having a FULL winter ON THE SNOW that it will be very difficult to say who the king is...if their even is one as everyone's expectation and personal preferences are different.

Now I say lets put together a "show and tell" of each different set up at the Mach Z shootout in 2010 and hopefully compare apples to apples?????

SDJ

I see both sides and this is my input... I was going to buy a FPP kit. Frist the cost was less, very easy to install and will add hp!


Then i took a step back and had a look.... The time to put on for me did not matter we have about 10-12 weeks yet.... 2nd Then i know how i am with boost. And 99% of every one i know with boost! LOL i would want more HP for sure all ways do!!HAHA So the stock log header is no good.... water not running to the turbo i dont like. (added it to my Bender kit) I would need to buy a muffler,gauges,header, air box... so the cost would jump up a ton fast. The box FPP use i had on my MPI Nytro that i hated, never could get spot on....I put a RB3 on and loved it(stutter,raise my RPM,add and pull timing) with the help from Dave not even his kit just helping me out. Not to say that it does not work well on the Doo and i know a few guys liked it on the Nytro. For me the powerlights was a easy choice after i stepped back and looked at what i realy want in my sled. Now if a guy wants a trail kit at 5-6psi and never touch it the FPP kit would be a good pick! But i wanted a kit that was ready to ROCK from the exhaust valve to the muffler! Running 10PSI every day then dump in the race gas, throw some weight at the clutch and ROCK 16-17-18-19PSI of BOOOSTT!!! Just good to have more than 1 kit to pick from guys!!!!! keep up the great work every one!!!!

Thank you Skydog P.S.Just my input do not want to get in the middle of anything!!!! Thank you sledders!!!

[quote name='SkiDoojunky' date='Sep 23 2009, 09:33 PM' post='2455550']
Maury, You and I have met, I cannot say the same A7M. With that being said I give kudos to ALL of the turbo kit mfgs as each of their set ups are personalized and have great points to each. I do realize that FPP was the first to the table to boost a 1200 and go public with it and hats off to them for that! I personally followed that thread like a HAWK last year through all the trials and trivias. Them being the forerunner gave other companies a place to start as to what would work and what won't. I personally do alpha and beta testing for a US company that designs assisted steering systems for agricultural use. I DO know what is involved in testing a raw product and what its initial failure rate can be, this is something that the general consumer takes for granted and does not fully understand. With that being said I would hope in NO way that anyone interested in turbo charging a 1200 doo puts any weight in the bickering in the previous posts. I do agree that FPP and MCX has the upper hand with either a partial year or full year of testing under their belt, but there will be MANY mfgs on their tails this winter with a great product as well. It is no secret that I am a promoter of Powderlites set up but I feel that without having a FULL winter ON THE SNOW that it will be very difficult to say who the king is...if their even is one as everyone's expectation and personal preferences are different.

Now I say lets put together a "show and tell" of each different set up at the Mach Z shootout in 2010 and hopefully compare apples to apples?????

SDJ

Very well said , MY goes off to You!!!!

Cliff Yeatman

SDJ,

I apologize, I was just confronting A7M's FPP bashing with some "matter of facts" back in his face, but then it subsequently turned into an unintentional bash PowderLites session in-itself just because HE was pitching it, not because a PowderLites kit is junk or a bad design.

You are right, no one looking into any of those mfg'rs turbo kits should pay attention to our "bickering"... It's exactly that.
Well said that "everyone's expectation and personal preferences are different". These two different kits are targeted for different needs. The FPP kit and the PowderLites kit are in two different levels, the later being intended for a high end / high boost capable for a select few with that need and who are willing to pay for that kind of work of art, bells and whistles, etc. The FPP kit stage1 (5 lbs) and stage2 (12 lbs) kits being simple and low cost proven designs, doing exactly what they are intended for and already getting it done.

Truth is the two (three, with MCX) have never been head to head so it's ALL speculation and opinions... And with the Powderlites being new, there is nothing to show that it won't hold up to it's claims. Likewise the FPP kit's ability can't be compared to a PowderLites kit purely on a visual look at a display.

Anyone who knows me, or knows my rep, know's I typically stick up and have respect for ALL the aftermarket mfg's. Not many can appreciate what they do and go thru, what they sacrifice.

Skydog,
You are a Yammi boost veteran, you are already HP ruined and are at a different level then most (non Yamaha, anyhow), you know what you want, and if the PowderLites kit is your choice then you will surely get what you pay for. There is a lot of work put into a PowderLites kit, it is a work of art, hand down.
Coming from a Bender Kit, however, you are already familiar with some of FPP's capability... as he was involved with that development back in the day.
BTW, the FPP controller is very different then the old MPI Gem controller, internally and program wise, even though they look the same... Turbo's and Blowers have very different requirements when it comes to controllers, too.
I've had no issues with the one on my Apex, but then don't have experience with anything else to compare it to either. Yet, anyhow, maybe will try the RB3 this year?

Maury, no apologies needed.....now get your butt back west to the shootout this fri and back again for the Mach Z shootout this winter and you can buy me beer at both events to make up for it!!!

Wow this turned into a mess. I think any of these kits will be good kits. I think they all have there pros and cons. For me a lot was customer service. I don't know many shops when you call at 9pm they answer the phone and say come on over. Powderlites may have had only one on the snow last year, but I gaurantee it was beat on day after day. I watched it numerous times and also got to do a little beating on it myself. I'm pretty sure mcxs release was little late last year either. Everyones kit will have some issues to work out. I got mine late last year after pestering dave for months and I have to say it runs awesome. No burbles, hicups nothing just smooth power. I seems most people are skeptical of powderlites, but one thing i can gaurantee that his customer service is second to none. Like hurricane said daves passion and honesty are not something you see everyday. If pl was all about just trying to sell some kits I know people were begging him last year to get it and he wouldn't do it. My percistance finally paid off and I got mine just in time to get a couple rides in. Anyway my first choice is obvious, but second would be mcx.

Very good post...

I realize not everyone is looking for the same thing in a kit. I myself am no novice, therefore I will be looking for a kit with 10+ lbs and would expect fairly high #'s and probably be running race fuel or a blend(not sure what I could run with this low comp motor and my altitude)

Who knows better? A guy in a 2 car garage with a welder or a fleet of BRP / Rotax engineers with high dollar computer programs and test time?
So something hush-hush is how long does it take to install a PowderLites or MCX kit?

After all the great mapping from brp ive seen I'll take the guy in the garage with a welder. especially if its dave or some of the other guys around here.
Don't quote me but I think powderlites said 8 hours/$800 for them to do it.

((((Skydog,
You are a Yammi boost veteran, you are already HP ruined and are at a different level then most (non Yamaha, anyhow), you know what you want, and if the PowderLites kit is your choice then you will surely get what you pay for. There is a lot of work put into a PowderLites kit, it is a work of art, hand down.
Coming from a Bender Kit, however, you are already familiar with some of FPP's capability... as he was involved with that development back in the day.
BTW, the FPP controller is very different then the old MPI Gem controller, internally and program wise, even though they look the same... Turbo's and Blowers have very different requirements when it comes to controllers, too.
I've had no issues with the one on my Apex, but then don't have experience with anything else to compare it to either. Yet, anyhow, maybe will try the RB3 this year))))

Yes you are right on buddy!!!

Skydog

(Quote Mbarryracing) the FPP controller is very different then the old MPI Gem controller, internally and program wise, even though they look the same... Turbo's and Blowers have very different requirements when it comes to controllers, too.
I've had no issues with the one on my Apex, but then don't have experience with anything else to compare it to either. Yet, anyhow, maybe will try the RB3 this year? Quote end!

I had some of the first Dobeck boxes to test and try on a Apex when they came out. On the Dyno it seem to work fine but out in the mountains it was horrible!.
Hundreds of codes/fuel curves and learning how to use there software spent many weeks and finally flew in Derick fisher that was working for Dobeck to help and see if we could make this thing run.
Mark Dobeck and Mac from MPI were on the phone when we were building voltage clamps and testing to see if we could pull fuel to clean up bottom end on a Apex EFI.
Dobeck then made new boxes with a program to adjust voltage and trick the stock map sensor on fuel rail.
Bender Racing had CNC a box and it was thought to be new EFI system that know one else had??
Dobeck took back all the boxes I had and sold them to Bender without voltage clamps.
Did the Bender Apex ever really run properly? No as I sold and upgraded a few guys and there customers were choke to say the least.
I can make a Dobeck box work as good as the next guy but internally the control boxes are the same chinese boards and all that type of board are made in china.
Fuel curve adjustments don't even compare to a Map system like stock ECU and RB3 has 240 cells on each map.
We can adjust RPM steps right down to 30 RPM.
Gem controller and about and few hundred other decal names are all the same box.
Someone is playing with Rapid Bike 3 on his Skidoo 1200 and using a Powder Lites Airbox assembly in NY and will be on Jim's Dyno soon.
I have a few phone calls every week asking about EFI systems on the 1200 and I did play with Dobeck boxes for years and know what I am talking about.
How many turbo factory engines have high compression?
Does a Turbo engine have same timing curve as one without?
This is not knew and lower compression motor will always be able to make more power.
Who ever tells someone that there is no power because of low CR ratio hasn't been to the drag races.
Give this motor some room to run without being on the edge for timing and compression ratio and it will be a strong runner everyday all day.
PowderLites

jvb,

HAHAHA! I actually do have the same view, some of the small skilled shops are more dialed into certain needs and sometimes the OEM's really miss the target. Your preaching to the choir.

The point I was trying to make was just food for thought... that it's darn hard for a any small guy to do the kind of rigorous time consuming calibration / controller development that a big OEM can do with their resources.

(I'm NOT bashing ANY dyno owners!!!!, just comparing resources not talent)
And because of this i'm skeptical that a simple computer mapping program will map everything automatically, knowing all the conditions... I'm skeptical because heck, I'm happy when Windows boots correctly on my PC! LOL!

My take currently (and subject to change without notice...) is that the piggy back style controllers might have a different advantage because they compliment the OEM's efforts here, instead of creating the wheel from scratch they can focus their needs more on tuning a narrower spectrum.

And we all know what a machine does on a dyno doesn't always directly correlate to success on the trail by different users in different conditions. Anyway you slice it, someone's gotta be a lab rat.

Then again, it also could be spot on! But different views provoke people to think non-one-sided...

I wondered if you would post.....good constructive info.....without all the mine is better than yours BS

Its true about the lower compression. The import ricer cars come to mind. They lower the CR, retard the timing, throw a ton of boost at it, and it all lives on pump fuel without deto.

turbo800,

Your correct about lower CR in certain circumstances. No one will argue that when you get to a certain boost level on pump gas you'll need to lower the CR, the reason I went ahead and installed dished pistons in my boosted Apex, and of course the reason FPP has custom made low CR pistons for their bigger turbo'ed 1200's as well...

These sound like half truths, but you were trying to say the same thing.

Lower CR allows the motor to run on more boost with lower octane fuel before detonating, hence the potential to make more power... It's not "new" that lower compression in-itself doesn't make more power.
There are die hard Yamaha guys that swear by the stock compression for better throttle response in the trail, another arguable point. Surely not with massive boost, no doubt, nor crap fuel...

And then there is water / meth... used with stock compression and pump gas can make more power then lowered compression. No?

Ironic too that OSP has been setting world records and track records with their Outlaw Sleds they build with stock compression... hmmm, yeah I know that's apples & oranges to a trail sled and they are running funky fuel too but those things still flat out rip! And I think they are making "more power" then most.

All sounds contradicting, I know... There are always going to be arguments over head shimming vs lowered CR pistons vs stock compression, I'd venture to say it's up to personal preference and needs.

You said it pretty well, there is a point where the lower CR takes over. When throttle response is critcal(drag racing, etc) a higher CR will spool the turbo slightly quicker, but it also has its draw backs when higher boost is used and the grade of fuel needed to save the motor.

Yes and with the RB3 you can throw some good timming at it to bring back the throttle snap, and clutch goes a LOOONG way for this too! Low CR is a must to make good safe HP in trail/lake set up. Look at any car from the factory. Like the WRX STi it comes with the boxer 2.5 liter Turbo. The turbo model from the factory all ways has a lower CR then the na motor. If doo every comes out with a factory boosted sled the CR will be lower. It is just plain safer! You can take that to the bank. LOL

Skydog

Agreed and like I said above, I have dished turbo pistons in my Apex for a reason, too, and more recent after following Hurricane Dave's developments over the past year that has me looking at Water / Meth injection, as well.

The idea of water/meth is interesting, but it makes me wonder about motor longevity. How much is used when sprayed? Anybody have problems with it washing oil off the cylinder wall?

Yea i had Meth on my RX1 it worked great!! I was running the motor on edge so i was using aot of METH to keep deto away. I dont feel it washes down cyls it burns like fuel just at a very slow rate. But you do have a point... I have been wrong before......lol

I guess it probably depends on how much you spray to keep deto away. I know on diesels, they dont recommend idleing for more than 15min, fuel can wash the cylinders.

Even though the STI may have lower compression. Once you start playing with more power & boost, the pistons fail. This is something to keep in mind for the 1200.

True. I assume they are cast pistons in the 1200. A good set of forged pistons with thicker skirts helps a bunch. Anybody know the HP limits of the stock pistons, connecting rods, crank(heard its beefy), head studs?

We have 1200, low compression,JE/HURRICANE pistons instock and ready to ship.These pistons lower the compression instead of using a head shim.They have been designed by Hurricane Performance,working with Powderlites with cooperation from the JE engineers.

Greg Bennett was the first to have over 400+ HP on a completely stock 4-Tek motor.

That was (is) a very nice sled. I know he tried to sell it but I believe he may have ended up keeping it.

True but sure have not heard much since then........

From a machinists point of view, they build a top notch piston. All the little attention to details, IMO though...

Well, lets get the real truth on the Powderlites kit for the Nytro. How many maps did powderlites put out for the Nytro kit? That would be 6 of them and it still is not right still has a burble. How many have major issues with their powderlites Nytro kits just quiting on the hill and have to sit for a hour before they will start back up? I think snowest and totallyamaha have many comments on this . How many Rapid bike 3 did we unhook on the hill? 3 in one weekend. They had a short weedend. Claimed 14 psi on pump gas. Wait a minute it turns out that is not entirely true. It will run out of fuel at 14 psi. The thread on TY in the Powderlites maps tells alot of truths. Oh ya cracked intercoolers and have to drill into the intercooler yourself rings a bell too.

Allright Im done my rant. Everything isnt rosy with the Nytro Kits. Hopefully the doo kit is better but I wont hold my breath.

brp speculated 400hp, For the pistons we received for our 1200 there was more attention focused in the distances from the ring land to the crown, and pin relocation , opposed to beefier skirts, the main ingredient for a high hp motor. dave(black toys) havent forgot u buddy ill pm u the part numbers kevin