is it just race fuel we know we have to use with turbo applications with a certain octane , i brought up an octane chart yesterday on the internet and couldnt believe the variables with the different blends, where i am we have a torco depot that has a wide variety of fuels on sight , so with specific gravities being similar in most blends ive noticed the octane levels,research and motor octane are quite broad. vp is also very common in ontario but a 5 hr or 100 delivery charge. whats the take

Any of the newer oxygenated fuels will show a increase in power over older C16 type fuels.. however the gains havent been what was claimed.. at least on the applications ive tried thus far.

For the cost and power production potential combined .. ive yet to see anything out perform E85

Last season I went up to 19 psi boost on pump gas with a meth kit.
Seems scary at first but never had a problem all year.
I also tryed new VP 111 and found it very nice for making good power.
C16 guys couldn't get there sleds to run up high and I got them runing but not nice in snow storm and cold at 7500 ft.

We did some work here back sometime ago with different fuels and for the most part most people will never notice the difference(between similar octane fuels) until they tune to the edge.

research octane seems to always be higher then motor but thats why the do the math r+m*2.

The specific gravity is where things get alittle funny, as the SG gets higher the fuel tuning will be more critical.

As for the oxygenated fuels,your right 89 it only on the edge where it shows any HP.

If your really want to control detonation and put crazy boost you need to mix some Tirolean into your fuel, just don't breath it .LOL

Cliff Yeatman

I figured I would add some more to the fuel discussion.

Specific gravity is the ratio of the mass of a liquid to the mass of an equal volume of distilled water at 64° F which is where we get the 1.000 Specific Gravity.

So to give you a idea of how it effects fueling a engine, a 4% increase in specific gravity will require a 4% decrease in fuel.

Ok so what does that mean? Well if your current fuel has a specific gravity of 730 and the new fuel is 759(4% increase) you can reduce you fueling 4% over all.

I think you can see where this is going, less fuel right, that's why it means your jetting need to be spot on

Also something else to think about is that the specific gravity of the fuel will decreases with a rise in temperature or increases when its temperature is lowered.

Cliff Yeatman

Something else that might be handy is if you take the Spicific gravity of the fuel (will use the above .730 and x it by 8.34 you will ge the wieght of one gallon of that fuel.(6.0882Ibs)

Cliff Yeatman

Seeing that you know a lot about fuel, I would like to ask you about fuel requirements and hp.

I'm at 1500ft runnung 1200 with turbo at 7lbs boost with roughly 220-230 hp and mixing 91 octane with 109 octane race fuel to get 95-96 octane just to be safe.

What happens to my hp when I go to the mountains at about 7500ft?

Can I drop my octane or should I keep it the same?

[quote name='burrhead' date='Aug 9 2009, 01:55 PM' post='2413514']
Seeing that you know a lot about fuel, I would like to ask you about fuel requirements and hp.

I'm at 1500ft running 1200 with turbo at 7lbs boost with roughly 220-230 hp and mixing 91 octane with 109 octane race fuel to get 95-96 octane just to be safe.

What happens to my hp when I go to the mountains at about 7500ft?

Can I drop my octane or should I keep it the same?

Burrhead.

Myself I wouldn't run anything less then 93 octane,but one other thing to think about is that just because you mix 50% 91 with 50% 109 you don't necessarily get 95 octane,it's not quite that simple, but it would be better then 91.

With your sled the difference from 1500' to 7500' is 6000' that works out to 18% drop in hp on a none boosted engine,also at that same 7500' the turbo has to push more air through it to keep that same 7Ib's of boost, that increase of 6000' means that the turbo has to push 23.6 cfm more air to sustain that boost.

But thats the nice thing about boost it doesn't really care whether it's at sea level or at 10000' to it 7Ibs of boost is 7Ibs of boost, so to answer your question, you don't lose any power.

Cliff Yeatman

Cliff,

You add a very valid point. There has been many a debate on here that turbo kits tested at elevations above sea level cannot possibly reliably run at sea level because they will run lean. These naysayers don't grasp the concept of turbo and wastegate functions.
I tend to agree with you. At 7500' , 7lbs boost pressure in the intake plenum is the same as 7lbs boost pressure at below sea level.
The turbocharger is able to compress the denser air easier at lower elevations and therefor has the ability to produce more boost, but that is what the wastegate is for... to maintain status quo

Thanks Cilff, that answers my boost and altitude question.

About the fuel though, why doesn't mixing 91 octane and 109 octane at 50-50 give you roughly 95 octane? Is it the ethanol in the 91?

[quote name='burrhead' date='Aug 9 2009, 07:24 PM' post='2413720']
Thanks Cilff, that answers my boost and altitude question.

About the fuel though, why doesn't mixing 91 octane and 109 octane at 50-50 give you roughly 95 octane? Is it the ethanol in the 91?

Burrhead.

Fuel is a mixture of many things like iso-octane,normal heptane,ethanol as well as many other chemicals that when combined in a certain ways, produce a certain octane and specific gravity,so when you mix other things into that mixture there could be some odd changes that don't go as expected.

I'm sure your fuel mixture is higher then the base 91 but it could be higher or lower then 95 depending on how it all mixes, the only way to know for sure is take it to a company that has a Waukesha motor that is purpose built with a neat head that can alter the compression form 4:1 up to 18:1 till knock occurs
If you want one there worth about $250,000.

Cliff yeatman

but when waste gate cannot open more than 1/2'' because the flap hit the bad designed downpipe, you got 4-5 lbs of more boost......and everebody tell you that you are a liar because all the rest of the guy have the correct boost at high altitude.

Blah, blah, blah... and the wastegate won't ever open enough if you alter or pull off the boost signal line to it in "speed greed", has nothing to do with elevation or adaquate designed fueling. Among the list of untold rookie dirty laundry ...

Longsled give it up, no one is listening to you any more, and your lack of turbo experience and your obvious sole intent to bash and re-direct blame.

Keep this on topic.

you make me so much laugh. I have a business of 75 employees, of which 5 are mechanical engineers and 2 programmer engineers, and we construct million $ sawmill equipment, have 100 000 square feet mill with CNC machining and can be able to produce 100 turbo kit by day, and be able to construct the fuel management box alone if I want, but I will never do that, no big money to win. It's just beer for us. Do you really think that We don't know how this little system work?

and if you think that no body listen to me anymore, I don't know why all my inbox still always full....

I really love playing with you like a dog with a bone, but I will make an agreement with you. I will never reply to any of your post, and do the same, and stop editing 5 times your message

Eves now you've led us way off topic, AGAIN.
Sorry Kevin.

Then maybe you should have stuck to making professional sawdust instead of unrightfully blowing your own horn...

I really don't have a vendetta against you, as I do not know you personally and never dealt with you, but since I learned the other side of your one-sided troubleshooting horror story from last season, and when reflecting back on the amount of unprecedented tech help that was extended to you behind the scenes (that would have determined your issue immediately had you not resisted any viewing of your machine), cannot let you continue to repeatedly bash a well intentioned company by re-opening old wounds unchallenged.
I see this negative scenario occur and sour topics all too often on other forums, and more so the moderators shouldn't find it appropriate per this forum's rules either.

Your inbox maybe full because gullible readers have been misled by partial truths. If only they were aware of the rest of that story, and fully understand the unique situation that you were in?

Readers seek honesty, and the fact that you admitted above that you're playing me like a dog should reveal things even more. Your persistance to remind "everyone" of your biased opinion is being overshadowed by numerous success stories and undeniable customer satisfaction.

I don't want an agreement with you, I want you to bury the hatchet and I'll leave it at that.

BTW, I will use my edit button as it's intended for.

IT wasnt Longsled that had the issue here... IT was a BAD DESIGN on FPP's part and a screwup on there end so Dont turn this around on him..

and YOU KNOW ( or maybe you dont) what the issue was.. it had nothing to do with what he did to try to correct the problem. You read everything he was doing and at no point did you help out other then lead him on a wild goose chase.

I think the BIGGEST problem with what he had was the FACT that NOBODY at FPP bothered to return his calls and just talk to him to resolve the issue..

perhaps because they themselves couldnt figure it out.. or werent concerned with supporting there customer... We figured it out by asking specific questions
and getting specific answers Which I cant believe the people at FPP couldnt spend the few hours on the phone to figure out ... sorry its just inexcuseable.

MBArry -- DONT try to flip this on him at all ... FPP SCREWED UP and you and everyone else knows it .. and it didnt help that you had him on a wild goose chase with fueling issues because you didnt know any better yourself .... nuff said

turbo,
You are missing the point. I am not disputing that mistakes were made, everyone makes them, but this very assumption that you just regurgitated above, that they weren't concerned or putting in an effort, is pure proof that you have been misled, as well. You're only going by what you have been told or have read, as you weren't involved and can't know, and formed an opinion based on hearsay which makes you a hipocrit. Not all that glitters is gold...

There was no lack of effort on the part of CJ's or FPP, by any means. I'll extend an offer to you or anyone including moderators, to PM me or call me and I'll spend the time with you so you understand "the rest of the story" before forming a final opinion.

Truth is Longsled was talking out of both sides of his mouth by posting on Dootalk while not assisting in FPP's efforts to troubleshoot or even look at his sled. Not all that was happening offline to help was disclosed by him for whatever reason (regardless of what you choose to believe).
I don't blame Longsled for the problem, but I blame him for being deceitful to everyone (inculding me) which spawned all the unwarranted BS just like what you are feeding into and wrote above.
This is my issue... not being truthful and honest about what was really being done to help. To a business owner, this is damaging. Pity any business owner that has to deal with him in the future.

Also I don't want to toss stones back but I also recall you didn't immediately determine what the exact issue was either (being an expert and all) so DROP IT!.

If I can put a plug in for FPP, we have had EXCELLLENT support on our stage II kit and even when we had an issue that was our fault (an intake gasket that fell out) Justin spent a bunch of time trying to help us figure it out. They are very busy, and as a business manager, I can appreciate how much time it takes to support customers. I'm not commenting on the Longsled deal, just sharing our experience.

Just to make thing clear,

Justin gave me some support, but He was just enable to fix the problem on the phone. He asked me many times to go to Boonville, but it was just impossible for me. He also asked to send the kit back. I don't want to make any bashing on FPP, my kit, and the Rhéaume Rodrigue had exactly the same problem and both of us burn many piston. again today, Justin won't believe that the exhaust problem we found is the reason why we had the double of boost ( and by the way running to lean) that the kit was designed for. So, Rhéaume ( and this guy is really don't fall from the last rain) and I applied the modification I found with some of you on this forum, and now it's fully reliable and performing, and running like it should run, 5000$ in motors parts later.

Rodrigue and I were the 2 first guy that install the fpp kit, and we found a lot of thing that we communicate to Justin. Look, we've got 9 psi of boost, with waste gate disconected and tied wide open, and same result on 2 different kit. Houston, we have a problem. Now we know that 6 psi is the max boost that the stock fuel pump and injector at 100% of duty cycle can provide on 91 fuel pump without ignition correction. Many piston burned to prove it. It was the detonation party each time we ran WOT more than 3-5 secondes.

I will concede that I was any experience in turbo riding last saison, but Rhéaume, a open mod world champion had exactly the same problem of me, and he ride at the same sea level of me.

I fixed the exhaust downpipe problem here, on this forum, with the help of many of you.

the only bad thing I have in my mind against Justin, is that Rheaume and me got the 2 first production kit and we did R&D on that kit because it was just not working at sea level, an Justin just continue to said that we are out the the road.

If you thing that 7 psi of boost is the same thing at every altitude, it's just half thrue. Boost comes up earlier, more boost at lower rpm, turbine have to turn at lower speed than high altitude for the same boost. All of this factor need different fuel maping and make several change in temperature operating setup. When more flow at sea level have to pass through the small waste gate hole, and without divorced downpipe, made more heat going back to engine, and lead more quickly to detonation.

now, all things is right and working very well. I don't know if the the Mont-Vallin, north-east snowmobiling capital, annual biggest snow drag of Quebec is a local event for you, but the performance I did at that event with the 6500 km I ran on that kit proove that we are not as out of the road that someone think.

the FPP kit is a very simple kit and i'm sure Justin fixed the thing right, I recommende it for any people for trail use and for their first one kit to learn turbo setup before going to something more complicate.

this is the true story, on time for all.

Longsled.

Did Rhéaume Rodrigue or his dad(as I don't know how old he is) do any grass drag racing in the 80's.

Ross Fadorkie is a friend of mine as well are the Beatty boys, and I had helped in the pits a few times, I can remember some very close races.

Good times.

Cliff Yeatman
Advanced Dyno

Yes, He did, in open-mod, one of the first guy running a crank shop 4 cyl, a hay days succesfull racer. His son is Bernard.

oh yeh turbo fuel ive got the right thread lol, ive got 5 gallons of 118 nos torco fuel which is quite compatible to the vp 116, and guess what right in my backyard, to all who pmed about torco fuel he has a good flowing supply and he can ship

LOL

I'm so used to things getting off track on all these threads I almost missed that.

Kev waht are the # of those 2 fuels??


Longsled,

He was and still is a great competitor, I saw many races won and lost by inch's.


Cliff Yeatman

118 motor octane, 120 research octane specific gravity of 0.699 torco 118nos fuel

I like the low SG and the octane is high enough for almost any boosted motor.

Good find.

Cliff Yeatman

Longsled I feel your pain. I have been down the R+D road myself. The kit you have has many hirtles to over come to be able to run @ 10lbs and up for trail use. You have touched on most of them. The original exhaust manifold is not going to work period . Its a huge down fall in higher boost situations. stock injectors with the dobeck or whatever its called box is a disaster. I beleive you in your statements, FPP are not the first turbo kit builders to send out an exhaust plate with no provisions for the gate to swing open. P.M. me I can bounce a few things off you we are doing here. Would love to build you some cool header and dual exhaust. Kevin